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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Developers have fooled us over the definition of "Pay-to-Win"

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419 posts found
  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6822

5/12/13 2:19:59 PM#221


Originally posted by Livnthedream
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure

Did you not take a writing class in school?


....and yet again fallacy. One would think you get it already :(

  thinktank001

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1782

5/12/13 3:29:27 PM#222
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by thinktank001

 

If a player pays, then the game is not free. 


 

That's not how it works.

Point made by poster above...


You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.

 

If someone makes a purchase from a cash shop is it still free?   How is it that a game can be called F2P, but by most "data" collection reports, 10% of the people don't play the game at zero cost?  

 

I just ask these question because there seems to be a double standard applied to mmorpgs.   It is a simple fact, that a person's friend can take them out to eat at a restaurant, and they would never call that restaurant " free to eat ".    Yet, here we are 221 posts later and players still continue to call some MMORPGs " free to play ".  

 

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6822

5/12/13 3:33:15 PM#223


Originally posted by thinktank001

If someone makes a purchase from a cash shop is it still free?   How is it that a game can be called F2P, but by most "data" collection reports, 10% of the people don't play the game at zero cost?  

 

I just ask these question because there seems to be a double standard applied to mmorpgs.   It is a simple fact, that a person's friend can take them out to eat at a restaurant, and they would never call that restaurant " free to eat ".    Yet, here we are 221 posts later and players still continue to call some MMORPGs " free to play ".  



Originally posted by Gdemami

You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.


 

  thinktank001

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1782

5/12/13 4:20:42 PM#224
Originally posted by Gdemami

 

You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.


 

 

 

 

WOW and EVE offer a free 14 days and GW2 offers free weekends so that makes them both F2P, or did I also misunderstand this statement again? 

 

  

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4713

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/12/13 4:25:57 PM#225
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by Gdemami

 

You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.


 

 

 

 

WOW and EVE offer a free 14 days and GW2 offers free weekends so that makes them both F2P, or did I also misunderstand this statement again? 

 

  

 Aside from the sub in WoW (ignore that for the moment), do you need to buy the client after the trial for WoW and the weekend for GW2?

If not, then there is very little difference between f2p and a trial and an argument could be made that the only difference is time. 

If you do have to buy the client then your argument is moot.

edit - my own opinion on GW2 is that you (not you specifically) paid for a f2p game, but that is a different argument :)

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4385

5/12/13 4:46:08 PM#226
 Too many ppl worried about what others are doing in pve. If being first is how you win in pve...you are all losers every time you play. Maybe you should focus on better goals....like figuring out how to have fun instead of being a bunch of old ladies watching the neighbors.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6822

5/12/13 4:53:32 PM#227


Originally posted by thinktank001

WOW and EVE offer a free 14 days and GW2 offers free weekends so that makes them both F2P, or did I also misunderstand this statement again? 


Yes, you did.

Trial accounts aren't part of the payment model, it isn't how the game is supposed to receive money or generate income.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11900

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

5/12/13 5:00:53 PM#228
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

 

So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

The ability to buy items that gives an advantage with real money.

This.  The definition of p2w hasn't changed.

The definition of advantage is what keeps changing. 

Verily thou didst nail it.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1875

5/12/13 10:32:44 PM#229
Originally posted by seanfitzs
 

It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours.  "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.

That is the reality with those asian f2p games right?  Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up.  But in reality how many people can do that?

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4713

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/12/13 10:39:56 PM#230
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by seanfitzs
 

It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours.  "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.

That is the reality with those asian f2p games right?  Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up.  But in reality how many people can do that?

 While I think there is a point of reasonable time requirements beyond which the drop rate is just not comparable i.e. buying god sword in cs or .0001% drop rate is IMO stupid and I'll call that p2w)

the first question to ask is:

"Do you care about keeping up?'  I certainly don't. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  User Deleted
5/13/13 12:03:49 AM#231
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by thinktank001

 

If a player pays, then the game is not free. 


 

That's not how it works.

Point made by poster above...


You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.

 

If someone makes a purchase from a cash shop is it still free?   How is it that a game can be called F2P, but by most "data" collection reports, 10% of the people don't play the game at zero cost?  

 

I just ask these question because there seems to be a double standard applied to mmorpgs.   It is a simple fact, that a person's friend can take them out to eat at a restaurant, and they would never call that restaurant " free to eat ".    Yet, here we are 221 posts later and players still continue to call some MMORPGs " free to play ".  

 

 

Yeah, if you want to get technical they should be called 'Microtransaction based MMOs', but Free to Play sounds better to the masses.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

5/13/13 2:25:13 AM#232
Originally posted by evilastro

Yeah, if you want to get technical they should be called 'Microtransaction based MMOs', but Free to Play sounds better to the masses.

Especially since it's accurate, the majority of people never pay a penny in these games.  They are free to play.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
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  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

5/13/13 2:30:26 AM#233
Originally posted by DamonVile
 Too many ppl worried about what others are doing in pve. If being first is how you win in pve...you are all losers every time you play. Maybe you should focus on better goals....like figuring out how to have fun instead of being a bunch of old ladies watching the neighbors.

^^^This^^^

That's exactly the point.  There are so many people out there swinging their e-peens around in PvE games, acting like they have to compete with everyone they meet.  There is a simple solution to all of this, people need to stop being hyper-competitive pricks.  You can have a good time playing a game without ever being concerned in the least about what anyone else is doing, what anyone else has, etc.  Just play for *YOU*.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7121

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

5/13/13 3:11:28 AM#234
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Vesavius
 
I don't see what has you confused in all honesty. It seems simple to me... Yes, character development is a measure of how well you are doing in a MMORPG. You buy any part of that from a cash shop and you are, in my eyes, paying to 'win'.

You cannot see that MMORPGs are a series of micro 'wins'?

And, no, it's nothing like your example here at all.

Except they are not, atleast not on the game level. One can say "I am done" or that they "won a match" or "world first" but none of those are "winning" the game. The game does not end until they shut off the servers, and even then there is no winning or losing, merely the resolution of the conflict. Having the best gear in the game is not the end or even really the point of the game. Nor is being the most skilled, or completing the most content, or playing the game the longest.

 

I will repeat the part where I point out to you that a MMORPG is a series of micro 'wins' and leave it at that.

If you don't understand where I am coming from when I say that then... Well, nevermind.

 

 

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/13/13 3:16:21 AM#235
Originally posted by Vesavius

I will repeat the part where I point out to you that a MMORPG is a series of micro 'wins' and leave it at that.

If you don't understand where I am coming from when I say that then... Well, nevermind.

Even if your definition is a series of completed limited goals, its still not "winning" in any traditional sense because those goals are so different for people. Specifically the goals of or set by the development team. If your limited goal is "get the best gear" and the developers goal is to "have fun with other people" its quite right for them to dump your goal for theirs as they quite obviously did not make the game for you.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  witchhammer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/07
Posts: 5

5/13/13 3:23:28 AM#236

It can be only P2W if there is a competition.

If there is no competition there can be no "win"

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7121

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

5/13/13 3:33:48 AM#237
Originally posted by witchhammer

It can be only P2W if there is a competition.

If there is no competition there can be no "win"

 

Define 'competition'?

Do you count the guy that you are rolling for a loot drop against after running a dungeon, as an example, as competition?

 

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1875

5/13/13 3:41:11 AM#238
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by seanfitzs
 

It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours.  "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.

That is the reality with those asian f2p games right?  Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up.  But in reality how many people can do that?

 While I think there is a point of reasonable time requirements beyond which the drop rate is just not comparable i.e. buying god sword in cs or .0001% drop rate is IMO stupid and I'll call that p2w)

the first question to ask is:

"Do you care about keeping up?'  I certainly don't. 

 

My point s if you actually played those asian f2p games, they give you the chance to buy "everything" with in game gold.  It just takes an "absurb" amount of time if you don't use real cash.

I mean I can try playing atlantica online now and get the best gear in the game, it'll just take me say... maybe 20,000 hours playtime to obtain it.  "Or" I can just use real cash so I can catch up.  I would call that pay 2 win even though everything can be obtained in game without spending real cash. 

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2666

5/13/13 4:31:02 AM#239
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by seanfitzs
 

It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.

What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours.  "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.

That is the reality with those asian f2p games right?  Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up.  But in reality how many people can do that?

 While I think there is a point of reasonable time requirements beyond which the drop rate is just not comparable i.e. buying god sword in cs or .0001% drop rate is IMO stupid and I'll call that p2w)

the first question to ask is:

"Do you care about keeping up?'  I certainly don't. 

 

My point s if you actually played those asian f2p games, they give you the chance to buy "everything" with in game gold.  It just takes an "absurb" amount of time if you don't use real cash.

I mean I can try playing atlantica online now and get the best gear in the game, it'll just take me say... maybe 20,000 hours playtime to obtain it.  "Or" I can just use real cash so I can catch up.  I would call that pay 2 win even though everything can be obtained in game without spending real cash. 

And picking the worse grind game in the F2P repertoire is like me pointing out that back in ye oldy days on Everquest 1 it would take 6-12 months of hard gaming to even hit level cap.

  delete5230

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 2486

5/13/13 5:32:36 AM#240

I don't get fooled.

I just don't play games with cash shops, or at least any game that has anything to do with paying for equipment. Other than GW2 because its a reputable B2P, I don't play around with them.

Just because mmos are going in that direction, I don't par-take in that crap !!

Years ago, I would play around with free to play games knowing full well I would only play for a few days. Now I don't even bother.

 

 

 

I will NEVER give a cash shop a dime.

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