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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Dead MMOs and Emotional Connections

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84 posts found
  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

5/11/13 7:31:53 AM#41
Originally posted by Ozmodan

That is basically why I won't play a NCSoft game.  You never know when they are going to pull the plug.  

The odd thing is that even today, the 3 oldest commercially available MMO's(UO, EQ and AC1) are still there.  They will eventually go off line someday.  Even Wow will someday close their servers.  I just move on these days, there are so many games out there now and you only have so much casual time to play them.  I keep hoping one of the new games will actually entertain me like these games  or SWG did .   Of the newer games only Wow, Eve, Lotro and SWTOR have found any longevity of play and I really have not played two of them lately.

I try most of the new games, but rarely find one that lasts more than a couple months.  These new games don't have the staying power of the older ones. 

 

There is nothing odd about those three games still being around and highlight the article nicely. They are still around because of the emotional attachment players have to those original MMO's they cannot give it up, coupled with the fact they are good games. But It is this emotional attachment that make players compare every new game to their first love and it spoils their enjoyment of modern MMO's. Its the source of many arguments on MMORPG.com as a result of this comparison. In the real world if you compared every girlfriend/boyfriend to your first love and as a result you fail to have a new deep relationship it'd be considered irrational behavior but in game circles it is considered OK and normal by some.

 

The best example of this is SWG vets, ever since I've played MMO's and been around MMO boards I've seen these players pine, whine and reminisce constantly like it was "during the war..." they seem to find it hard to grieve for a lost one and it clouds their judgment on modern games. You need to either separate your emotions from a game or learn that nothing lasts forever and grieve the death of a beloved game or you'll be lost in world of nostalgia and cynicism which plagues modern gamers (ones online that is) and sets of many a circular debate about the quality of modern games and not just MMO's.

 

Through destruction comes creation. 

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3559

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

5/11/13 9:28:44 AM#42
Originally posted by cration
Dude. Its just a game.

Vile Heretic!! ^^

Yes, it is "just a game".  But its a matter of personal connection to many people.  Given the insanity of much of the reality that many of us deal with on a daily basis, escape into a world that has rules that make sense, and allows us to deal with less complex problems is refreshing. 

I started these games in UO. I have thousands upon thousands of screen shots from various games I've played over the years.  Many of them remind me of people, and places, now gone.  Many good times, that will remain in my memory, for a long, long time.

 

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2128

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

5/11/13 9:33:45 AM#43

The problem with "accepting MMO death" is that it is portrayed by the MMO industry and its media patsys like it is an inevitable reality of nature, like biological death.

But it's not.  Every MMO that has ever been closed was done so as an act of will, not of necessity.  You have plenty of online services, many of them free or near free, that easily cover their operating expenses because the technology to keep them afloat has become cheaper over time, not more expensive.

Technology is at the point that, if a publisher wants to keep a title alive, they could.  You can't tell me that people who are as smart as these publishers claim to be can't find some way, either through licensing or maintenance, to keep these worlds alive.  It has never been easier to do so, and we have examples of this all around internet gaming.

People make the choice to kill MMOs.  It is not an act of nature.  Nobody forced NCSoft to close down five MMOs any more than Funcom was forced to keep Anarchy Online open.  It all boils down to whether it's important for the publisher to keep the games running; it all boils down to whether the publishers really care about the fans who invest good time and money into this hobby.

When you place time and money into something, it's only natural to get emotionally invested.  And with greater emotional investment, you tend to put in more time and money.  If this wasn't rational, natural, or exploitable, we wouldn't have an industry at all, since every MMO exploits this facet of human beings.

So when the games get canceled (and I want to stress canceled, because it was an active choice, unlike death, which is not a choice), it is only natural for people who have invested big time and big money into them to be upset.  Indeed, I would be surprised if someone wasn't upset.  Because it's one thing to accept a loss that was inevitable.  It's another thing to accept a loss because the owner gets bored with you.

What is the best way for we, as MMO gamers, to handle the "lack of persistence" of persistent worlds?  I would caution against vesting the titles with a "living" quality, to believe that "MMOs die," and "MMO death is part of a natural cycle of life and death."  Vesting these games with that sort of poetic meaning only makes the games seem like something they aren't.  These are not living things, they are works of human engineering that don't have to die; they are canceled because someone wants to take them away from you.

I would rather us see these games for what they are: things that are engineered to separate you from your money, not unlike a casino.  The imagery and mechanisms they use to accomplish that end are powerful, and they prey on the people with low impulse control, addictive personalities, and a kind of futurist naiivete about the promise of this genre as a "virtual community" or a "utopian experiment."

When we feel hurt and anger when these things close, it is a sign that the producers and publishers accomplished their mission: they used us well, exploited us to the fullest, and are now laughing their way to the bank.  But the best way to handle these feelings is not to "get over it" as if it never happened.  That's like saying "thank you sir, may I have another?" after you get whacked upside the head.

The best way to handle it is not to "get over it," but to learn from it and not get taken for a ride next time, to get good and angry--real angry--at the way these producers think of you.  Only then can we learn.  Only then can this industry change.

/endRant

 

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  GameByNight

Columnist / Podcast Host

Joined: 9/08/09
Posts: 76

5/11/13 10:14:10 AM#44
Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
Why have you used a screen shot from lotro for an article about mmo death? This site really is the pits in slipshod writing and reporting.

Because it headed a section on emotional connection. Perhaps it's a game Victor enjoyed and signifies his point.

Writer of The Tourist, Tripping the Rift, and co-writer of Player Versus Player
Host of Game On: ESP Edition
Blogger at GameByNight.com

  dwturducken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 13

5/11/13 10:20:40 AM#45
Originally posted by Livnthedream
I find this article is bad for a couple of reasons. By op's logic every dm ever should be forced to keep their campaign going because a player does not want it to end. How unreasonable is that? Also, what about the changes wrought in mmo's? I played WoW at release and no longer do partially because I no longer see the character I originally made in the game. Games and people change, things die, this is called life. Whether you want to get angry or deal with it is pointless, as it is the way it is and there is simply no changing it.

The flaw in this logic is that a DM is a part of a group of (ostensibly) friends who collaborate, so the campaign continues or does not by a sort of mutual consent. An MMO continues or does not by brutal corporate dictates, more often than not. At the recent PAXEast, you had a panel of six heavies in the game and MMO field say unanimously that there is no reason for an MMO to ever end.

Worse is the trend toward "always on" DRM, or whatever EA is calling it this week. I will not buy certain games, now, because I will suddenly be unable to play a single-player game while my ISP is working through its monthly midday network failure.

  GrievousXi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/06
Posts: 12

5/11/13 10:39:26 AM#46
I would definetly play an old mmo re-mastered to todays technology over a new mmo. Game manufactures say the old pay model is no longer accepted....that's just an excuse to make cheap free to play games. Real mmorpg's are hard work and a bigger risk.
  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/11/13 1:27:11 PM#47
Originally posted by Beatnik59

The problem with "accepting MMO death" is that it is portrayed by the MMO industry and its media patsys like it is an inevitable reality of nature, like biological death.

But it's not.  Every MMO that has ever been closed was done so as an act of will, not of necessity.  You have plenty of online services, many of them free or near free, that easily cover their operating expenses because the technology to keep them afloat has become cheaper over time, not more expensive.

Technology is at the point that, if a publisher wants to keep a title alive, they could.  You can't tell me that people who are as smart as these publishers claim to be can't find some way, either through licensing or maintenance, to keep these worlds alive.  It has never been easier to do so, and we have examples of this all around internet gaming.

People make the choice to kill MMOs.  It is not an act of nature.  Nobody forced NCSoft to close down five MMOs any more than Funcom was forced to keep Anarchy Online open.  It all boils down to whether it's important for the publisher to keep the games running; it all boils down to whether the publishers really care about the fans who invest good time and money into this hobby.

When you place time and money into something, it's only natural to get emotionally invested.  And with greater emotional investment, you tend to put in more time and money.  If this wasn't rational, natural, or exploitable, we wouldn't have an industry at all, since every MMO exploits this facet of human beings.

So when the games get canceled (and I want to stress canceled, because it was an active choice, unlike death, which is not a choice), it is only natural for people who have invested big time and big money into them to be upset.  Indeed, I would be surprised if someone wasn't upset.  Because it's one thing to accept a loss that was inevitable.  It's another thing to accept a loss because the owner gets bored with you.

What is the best way for we, as MMO gamers, to handle the "lack of persistence" of persistent worlds?  I would caution against vesting the titles with a "living" quality, to believe that "MMOs die," and "MMO death is part of a natural cycle of life and death."  Vesting these games with that sort of poetic meaning only makes the games seem like something they aren't.  These are not living things, they are works of human engineering that don't have to die; they are canceled because someone wants to take them away from you.

I would rather us see these games for what they are: things that are engineered to separate you from your money, not unlike a casino.  The imagery and mechanisms they use to accomplish that end are powerful, and they prey on the people with low impulse control, addictive personalities, and a kind of futurist naiivete about the promise of this genre as a "virtual community" or a "utopian experiment."

When we feel hurt and anger when these things close, it is a sign that the producers and publishers accomplished their mission: they used us well, exploited us to the fullest, and are now laughing their way to the bank.  But the best way to handle these feelings is not to "get over it" as if it never happened.  That's like saying "thank you sir, may I have another?" after you get whacked upside the head.

The best way to handle it is not to "get over it," but to learn from it and not get taken for a ride next time, to get good and angry--real angry--at the way these producers think of you.  Only then can we learn.  Only then can this industry change.

/endRant

No different than your favorite TV show that just does not have the viewership to continue to produce new episodes. MMO's, no matter how much you want to whine and complain to the contrary, are extremely expensive when it comes to upkeep. Even discounting developing new content, support and server upkeep costs are not insignificant. When it comes to developing new content even a small team of 10 will run you upwards of $100,000 per month. Keeping a title on perpetual life support is a losing proposition, as your playerbase WILL eventually dwindle until you are either forced to run the game at a loss, or pull the plug anyway.

 

Originally posted by dwturducken

The flaw in this logic is that a DM is a part of a group of (ostensibly) friends who collaborate, so the campaign continues or does not by a sort of mutual consent.

False. I have had 2 campaigns essentially cancelled on me, both for different reasons. One of them we got a last hurrah, but the conclusion was far from satisfactory.

An MMO continues or does not by brutal corporate dictates, more often than not. At the recent PAXEast, you had a panel of six heavies in the game and MMO field say unanimously that there is no reason for an MMO to ever end.

Yeah, and that came off almost entirely as pr speak. I watched the panel, and was actually rather disappointed because instead of an honest look, I got 6 people in a veritable pissing contest trying to please the fans at all costs.

Worse is the trend toward "always on" DRM, or whatever EA is calling it this week. I will not buy certain games, now, because I will suddenly be unable to play a single-player game while my ISP is working through its monthly midday network failure.

I for one would rather pay that as a small price versus some of the other alternatives that have been proposed. People look at EA pulling $1b revenue quarters and then bitch about EA being greedy without actually looking at how much of that is profit. Have you looked at just how much it costs to make a game? Even if 10% of that is actual profit, that is rather on the low side in comparison to many other markets when it comes to roi. As such its getting harder for some of these companies to come up with the investment capital required. This is why we see so many studios crumbling, and more and more companies turning to Kickstarter, even though it realistically provides fractions of the amount needed to create AAA titles.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2128

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

5/11/13 2:37:32 PM#48
Originally posted by Livnthedream

No different than your favorite TV show that just does not have the viewership to continue to produce new episodes. MMO's, no matter how much you want to whine and complain to the contrary, are extremely expensive when it comes to upkeep. Even discounting developing new content, support and server upkeep costs are not insignificant. When it comes to developing new content even a small team of 10 will run you upwards of $100,000 per month. Keeping a title on perpetual life support is a losing proposition, as your playerbase WILL eventually dwindle until you are either forced to run the game at a loss, or pull the plug anyway.

Way different than a favorite TV show.  A TV show is far, far more expensive to produce.  TV shows don't disappear when the producer gets bored of them.  They go into syndication.  They are available on DVD.  Nor are they kept afloat by the audience's cash; an audience that invests money in the things they want to enjoy.  They are paid for through sponsorship money.

Now we can wax hypothetical about a situation where the costs to keep server access outweigh the revenue coming in.  But, to my knowledge, there has never been an MMO that couldn't pay for server access with their given playerbase.  We've got so many examples of small playerbase MMOs that are still running, you've got to believe that it's not that hard.  After all, if the game is already mature, they already have a lot of content.  It's because they don't want to pay for server access, because they don't want to make the games available, that the games close down.

Take any one of the games that closed down, you can maintain it and make a bit of money by offering a small service fee, or licensing.  But they don't want to do that, because it isn't what they want, which is not always the same as what we want.  They don't want us satisfied with the things we enjoy.  They want us clamoring for the new all the time, because they can make more money that way.

This MMO business likes the power to determine what we should enjoy, when we should enjoy it, and why we should enjoy it.  And when they are done with us, they have no compunction with throwing us out with the garbage, like the old used up junkies we are.

In the end, I really don't think it is a matter of ability to keep a game alive.  It's more a matter of desire; they have to want to keep the games going.  They have to be interested in creating a plan to keep the games going.  Right now, they have no interest in this.  So, since I don't want to throw good money after bad on producer promises, I'm not too interested in what they are "selling."

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/11/13 3:18:20 PM#49
Originally posted by Beatnik59

Way different than a favorite TV show.  A TV show is far, far more expensive to produce.  TV shows don't disappear when the producer gets bored of them.  They go into syndication.  They are available on DVD.  Nor are they kept afloat by the audience's cash; an audience that invests money in the things they want to enjoy.  They are paid for through sponsorship money.[/quote]

Not quite. Games generally have a much higher upfront cost, with a lower operating cost. This is a lot of the reason why even if a game is not doing well it will be held onto if the profit margin is there just to get that roi. Generally though tv/movie media is many times easier to make money on. For high profile shows for example its not unknown to sell 30 sec spots for upwards of $250k. Games just do not see those sorts of revenue numbers. That is also a large part of the reason why syndication rarely happens unless a significant number of episodes have been achieved, its just not worth it.

Now we can wax hypothetical about a situation where the costs to keep server access outweigh the revenue coming in.  But, to my knowledge, there has never been an MMO that couldn't pay for server access with their given playerbase.  We've got so many examples of small playerbase MMOs that are still running, you've got to believe that it's not that hard.  After all, if the game is already mature, they already have a lot of content.  It's because they don't want to pay for server access, because they don't want to make the games available, that the games close down.

Not at all. Especially when you look at larger publishers. You keep as many games bundled together out of one center as possible, its many times cheaper to run it that way. While a game may be providing enough to cover its own operating costs, it must be balanced across what is needed by the company as a whole. ie Why spend $100k on new servers when you can retask them for another game that will make more money. But thats just the money side. Series get old and tired. Look at The Simpsons. Can you honestly say that it should still be running? How bout Supernatural? It most certainly should have ended with season 5. Running a series into the ground is generally seen as a rather large negative by the community itself. Though they generally complain about the producer/writer/creater "ruining" it instead of realizing that they are in fact there own worst enemy.

Take any one of the games that closed down, you can maintain it and make a bit of money by offering a small service fee, or licensing.  But they don't want to do that, because it isn't what they want, which is not always the same as what we want.  They don't want us satisfied with the things we enjoy.  They want us clamoring for the new all the time, because they can make more money that way.

This MMO business likes the power to determine what we should enjoy, when we should enjoy it, and why we should enjoy it.  And when they are done with us, they have no compunction with throwing us out with the garbage, like the old used up junkies we are.

You need to watch less Alex Jones. Seriously. They are not out to piss in your Cheerios or to see just what they can concoct today to ruin the day of Joe Schmoe. You seemingly missing that the number one asked for thing when it comes to any mmo is "new/more content" means you must be blind and deaf. Not only is more content expensive, but not all creators are up to the task. Some authors for example only have one book in them. Continuing to create mediocre work just because a fanbase begs them to is folly. I really wish more creators actually worked similar to how the BBC does tv. They do a fairly large number of mini series that are absolutely brilliant. This idea that "more is better" is a fallacy that America in general needs to get over. Look at what Starz did with Torchwood and Miracle Day as another example. They went through the outline and added 4 episodes that did not need to be there. What should have been a great little mini series they turned into a full season that just dragged on forever, and in turn spoiled the flow something horrible.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2128

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

5/11/13 3:49:41 PM#50
Originally posted by Livnthedream
They are not out to piss in your Cheerios or to see just what they can concoct today to ruin the day of Joe Schmoe.

They may not have been out to piss in my Cheerios, but there is an awfully pissy taste in my Cheerios, and Joe Schmoe's Cheerios, nevertheless.

Now if we open up a box of Cheerios and it tastes like piss, a good way to prevent eating piss in the future is to stop buying Cheerios.  That's what a reasonable person would do.

But, apparently, in MMO land, if we eat pissy Cheerios, we ought to "get over it," "embrace the new" and go buy another box of Cheerios expecting things will be different this time around.

There will be some that say that the producer had to relieve himself in our Cheerios so he could give us a newer and better Cheerios that we should enjoy instead.

There will be others that say that the piss in our Cheerios was all in our minds; that somehow we 'wanted' pissy Cheerios, and we ought to have known that the Cheerios we were buying were piss flavored.

There are others who would say that the Cheerios tasted fine; that we just imagined the Cheerios tasted like piss, because the vast majority of people who ate the same Cheerios claim there was no piss.

But any way you slice it, when the Cheerios they serve us taste bad, like it does when someone closes down something we like and pay good money into, the people who are angry ought not to expect things will be better next time.  They ought to learn and not make the same mistake that made them so miserable.  They ought to refrain from getting into something until they have better assurances.  Isn't that fair?

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

5/11/13 4:09:29 PM#51

Originally posted by Beatnik59
But, apparently, in MMO land, if we eat pissy Cheerios, we ought to "get over it," "embrace the new" and go buy another box of Cheerios expecting things will be different this time around.
"Why don't corporations take us and our 'emotional investment' more seriously?" questions the op.

The answer provided, outlined, in the first couple of pages of responses.

As a parent, do you take tantrums seriously?

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/11/13 4:22:35 PM#52
Originally posted by Beatnik59

They may not have been out to piss in my Cheerios, but there is an awfully pissy taste in my Cheerios, and Joe Schmoe's Cheerios, nevertheless.

Now if we open up a box of Cheerios and it tastes like piss, a good way to prevent eating piss in the future is to stop buying Cheerios.  That's what a reasonable person would do.

But, apparently, in MMO land, if we eat pissy Cheerios, we ought to "get over it," "embrace the new" and go buy another box of Cheerios expecting things will be different this time around.

There will be some that say that the producer had to relieve himself in our Cheerios so he could give us a newer and better Cheerios that we should enjoy instead.

There will be others that say that the piss in our Cheerios was all in our minds; that somehow we 'wanted' pissy Cheerios, and we ought to have known that the Cheerios we were buying were piss flavored.

There are others who would say that the Cheerios tasted fine; that we just imagined the Cheerios tasted like piss, because the vast majority of people who ate the same Cheerios claim there was no piss.

But any way you slice it, when the Cheerios they serve us taste bad, like it does when someone closes down something we like and pay good money into, the people who are angry ought not to expect things will be better next time.  They ought to learn and not make the same mistake that made them so miserable.  They ought to refrain from getting into something until they have better assurances.  Isn't that fair?

When you have unrealistic expectations of course everything is going to taste like piss. Do you eat every meal expecting it to be the best thing you have every eaten? Why do you expect every game to be THE game? [mod edit]

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  sunshadow21

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

5/11/13 5:05:44 PM#53
Originally posted by Leiloni
Originally posted by sunshadow21
All games die, and people need to accept that, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that the deaths should be treated as insignificant. For the people who invested their time and effort into them, either as player or developer, it is something that deserves a bit more than "Get over it." Most folks can and will eventually find a replacement if they really want to, but trying to disregard the disappointment of losing the first one and expecting that process to start and end immediately is both unrealistic and unfair.

You are far too emotionally invested in games and seem to take them a bit too seriously. Yea it's normal to be disappointed if a game is shut down, just like you're disappointed when you're favorite TV show is cancelled. But that's it. It was enjoyable while it lasted and there will be other things to enjoy in the future. It's just a form of entertainment for you. Any friends you made you can keep in touch with. Those that worked in it will find new jobs. There are more important things in life to worry about. Games are not one of them.

 

Things in life change and maybe it's just me, but I'm used to it. You go to different schools as you grow up. You have different jobs as an adult. Friends come and go for various reasons. You have different homes you live in. Life is ever-changing. The key to happiness is learning to roll with it. Appreciate the past, look forward to the future, and live in the present. And I can't say this enough, but it's just a damn game.

You have valid points, but for the people who actually enjoy developing an attachment to a community, which was the whole point of these games to begin with, the loss of that community shouldn't just be written off and pushed aside as if it wasn't important. That seems to be the sticking point for a lot of people; it's not so much the fact that games, even MMOs eventually end, its the how and why that usually prove to be the biggest sources of anger and frustration. Too often the people who decide to cancel these games do so without considering the side effects created by the loss of community, and create far more ill will than is necessary because of it. Games can and will die, but that doesn't mean that one can't show respect to the dying, or soon to be dead, game and it's remaining fan base.

  sunshadow21

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

5/11/13 5:15:03 PM#54
Another thing to consider is that games are not like TV in that games require the player to actively participate, making some kind of attachment much more likely even for the most casual game. It's less of a problem with the current generation of MMOs than the older ones due to the fact that current ones limit true interactivity, and thus attachment, in ways that the older ones never did, but even with the current ones, active participation is still necessary. Any time you have active participation, the level of loss felt is going to increase. A TV show being cancelled is disappointing, but in most cases, the viewers don't lose much of themselves in the process. Games being cancelled are very different in that in order to really get the most from them, interactivity, active choice, and some kind of attachment are required. It doesn't have to be deep mourning level of attachment, but it does usually have to be more than "Oh well, what else is out there?" and promptly forget about it which is a far too common of a response today. Whether this is the fault of the games themselves, their players, or both is beyond my full understanding, but it disturbs me that so many seem to treat an interactive medium the same way they do tv, which is a completely different type of entertainment.
  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2128

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

5/11/13 5:24:05 PM#55
Originally posted by Livnthedream

When you have unrealistic expectations of course everything is going to taste like piss. Do you eat every meal expecting it to be the best thing you have every eaten? Why do you expect every game to be THE game? I mean by how your acting you have went into every date assuming that this one is the one too. Come shave your neckbeard and join the rest of humanity.

I don't think I expect anything unreasonable.  I want to enjoy the things I like.  I want to pay for the things I like.  I want to keep the things I buy.  It's what everybody else does.  Why can't I have that too?

See, it's kind of the reason normal people think MMO players are nuts.  I ask my friends, "Why don't you buy this game I'm playing?"  They say, "what happens when the makers get sick of it?"

And, you know, I don't know how to answer that one.  Because they are right to ask the question, and right to be concerned about it.  They don't have to wonder about "what happens if the makers get sick of it" in other things.  They are in control of their own pleasure and they are free to enjoy the things they want.

Instead of trying to justify why myself and my non-MMO playing friends shouldn't expect more, why can't we figure out ways where we can get more?  I mean, these wireheads in tech industries fancy themselves good at solving problems.  Why can't they fix this one? 

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  Captain-Electric

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/04
Posts: 4

5/11/13 5:59:45 PM#56
Originally posted by danwest58

Crap like this is why MMOs suck today.  We have what 40+ mmos for 20 to 50 Million players.  The fact still remains we have too many, we have 6 to 12 new mmos coming out each year and the MMO population is not growing its more stagnate if anything.  I know many people that have left the MMO world because so so games come out and they go F2P instead of closing down.  As well they are tired of seeing games like UO which was a Great game in its time still active 15 years later.  There comes a time when games need to shut down so newer MMOS can come out.  

As much as people want to hold to these old games or barely profitable games there comes a time when hindrance on moving forward.  Its just like having a building that is 200 years old standing on a corner that now is a major growing township taking up space.  No one wants to use it, however people want to keep it there because its a part of history however its taking up space that can be used to ease traffic, or for a new building like a gas station.  But no we have a handful of people that want to see through tinted glasses as this building means so much to a community when it means JACK SHIT but to a handful.   The same goes for MMOs, there is a time when you need to shut games down and design newer ones.  Maybe use the ideas from the old games, but the point still stand; its time to move on.  

 

So, which publisher do you work for?

-

By your rationale, Chess players should have stopped playing Chess a long time ago. Do you really think that all of those people who still play UO are doing it just to stand in the way of publishers who want to churn out more MMOburgers? Maybe they're playing it because they enjoy playing it. Maybe they're playing it because it's a fun game to them. This is exactly why, 15 years later, I still have a UO account. And this is also exactly why, 9 years later, [mod edit] I couldn't give a crap less whether some profiteering goon has a problem with where I'm spending my money.

-

I'm not your freakin' cattle, I've got my own mind, and wherever that mind does line up with your agenda, I assure you, it's strictly a coincidence. Publish better games, stop crunch-timing your studios, give me more quality, and that'll happen more often. Until then, suck it up, or stop sucking so bad, year after year. Maybe if ya'll could do something RIGHT, I wouldn't still turn to old games like UO [mod edit], year after year. It's not my fault you're not getting my money for most of your next generation garbage.

-

(Edit: Why does MMORPG.com hate paragraphs?) 

 
 
 
  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

5/11/13 6:55:53 PM#57
Originally posted by Captain-Electric

(Edit: Why does MMORPG.com hate paragraphs?) 

.

Hard return (enter key, comes with built-in space-before by default)
Soft return (pasted-in from notepad, no space before (but bullet/list mode treats it properly...buh?))

Only one bit of the weirdness inherent in this editor.
  Acidon

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/09/05
Posts: 677

Permafried

5/11/13 7:04:31 PM#58

Thank you very much for this write-up. 

That article on Massively bugged me in much the same way it did you.  I neither agreed with it nor felt it was even something that should have been printed.

I imagine that there are many gamers these days that have never formed any legitimate bond to a specific game.  Such is the nature of online gaming recently I suppose.

For those of us that have had very strong bonds to a game that was taken offline, it's not a good experience - at all.  It's not okay.  Yes, we have to deal with it.  No, there's nothing we can do about it.  But that neither makes it easy or okay.

 

Anyway, thank you for this latest iteration of your column.  You stated pretty much what I was feeling about that article.  And I don't work in the gaming industry (though I wish that I did!).

 

Happily Playing: ESO
Mourning: World of Darkness

MMO Gamer Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4fJhbRL1g - NSFWOSC

Free, Clean & Safe Quality of Life Software:
http://www.acidonsolutions.com

  jmcdermottuk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 766

5/11/13 7:35:26 PM#59

I've had two games shut down on me and it sucks. [mod edit]

And that's the problem, all this legal BS about a dead game. If these companies are shutting the doors anyway why don't they make the server software available to the fans? What are they losing? If they're shutting down and stopping taking cash then why can't they give the thing away to the people who want to keep playing it?

 

I can't understand why MMO companies that close a game down don't do this. Mark Jacobs has already declared that if CU folds he'll make the server software available to the community. This is a great move (one I hope he never has to live up to) and it's one that should be applauded. If only some other publishers would be so generous. Yeah I'm looking at you SOE and EA.

 

Personally, I think Mike Foster is so full of shit that his eyes have turned brown.

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2128

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

5/12/13 10:35:47 AM#60
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Beatnik59

I don't think I expect anything unreasonable.  I want to enjoy the things I like.  I want to pay for the things I like.  I want to keep the things I buy.  It's what everybody else does.  Why can't I have that too?

LOLWUT?! You just got done saying that everything tastes of piss? Are you insane?

Not "everything" tastes like piss to me.  Only the business model that the industry and industry apologists like you seem to want to ram down my throat.

People who see things your way had their chance to convince me, and they failed. So now I'm doing what a reasonable person should do and vote with my wallet. Why throw money at this industry when it refuses to give me what I want?

When people take away the things I buy and enjoy, I don't like it. It's something that even a five year old can understand and most people can understand. You may not care. But my gripe is a whole lot more understandable to people outside this whole MMORPG echo chamber we've built here.

Then you ask me to give you "links" to my friends and other "normal people."  My normal people don't waste time posting their opinions on MMORPGs on the web for the convenience of trolls.  But, since you asked, one of the people is a buddy of mine at the university.  He's no stranger to computers and online fun.  He crunches statistics for a living, and I remember trying to get him in to Star Wars Galaxies back in the day when it was new.  He was originally intrigued, but then he saw that there was an online component, he said "What happens when nobody shows?  I've got enough problems already."

The second guy was a high school dropout doing odd jobs.  Now he's no stranger to games either.  He plays Counterstrike, FPS, Diablo and so on.  I talked to him recently after CoH closed, and I was feeling rather bad about it.  I tried explaining to him what went on, why it had to close, what it was all about and so on.  "Dude, that's a pretty stupid game to get into," he said.  "What good is throwing all that money into subs, costumes and loot if they are just going to close down?"

The third was my mother.  When I came back over the summer, I played CoH at my house.  Back in the fall, when I was feeling low, she said, "You should go play that game you were so into."  I said, "Can't.  It's too hard to log back in."  She said "Why not?  Don't you like it any more?"  And I said "It's too damn hard to go back...they are shutting it down in November."

She got angry.  "Didn't your brother buy that for you in 2005?  What do you mean it's 'shutting down'?"  I explained to her for about five minutes why something my brother bought at the store could "shut down."  When I have to take that long to explain to a reasonable, honest person like my mother how this industry works, that in itself is a good indication that there's a problem with it.  But then she said "You're a damn fool for throwing so much money into that game then, looking at how you feel now."  And you know what?  She's right.

She also quite Frontierville soon after that exchange.

We're all "damn fools" for throwing so much money and effort into these things.  But what's even more foolish, to me at least, is why it is so important for people like you to not want something better?  Why is it so damn important for you and people like you to polish this turd?  We ought to expect better.

See, it ain't that controversial to understand that when a publisher does what it wants, when it wants, and for whatever reason it wants, your investment is in danger.  And that's not just investment in a money sense.  It's also investment in a time sense and an emotional sense.

I guess you can come back and say, "Then all this shows is that you ought not to invest so much time, money and attachment to MMOs."  Which is smart advice, but if everybody followed that advice, the games would go bust even faster, since nobody would feel any need to throw money at them.

Again, whether you think the service cancelation issue is a problem or not is immaterial. It's a problem for many, and if you don't believe me, use your eyes and look at this thread.  Myself, I'd just rather play something better, wait for something better and wait for something more secure.

What's wrong with that?

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

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