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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Developers have fooled us over the definition of "Pay-to-Win"

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419 posts found
  Cod_Eye

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1006

5/12/13 3:28:48 AM#21
Originally posted by seanfitzs

Player A earns full epic gear in game, player B buys full epic gear. Player A and Player B meet who has the advantage?

I am player c I don't have any gear, I meet player A and player B they both kick my ass, which one has the advantage?

 

Technically its cheating, and you can swing all your arguments anyway you want, its still cheating.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/12/13 3:28:51 AM#22
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Livnthedream
So is every rng based system ever. Are you saying that all rng should be removed also?


Random number generated loot is Random your not going to a cash shop with a shopping list.

Again, why does that matter? How is it any different for the person who gets "lucky" and gets it first time and the person who has to run the dungeon 600 times to get it? Why do you think so much have been moved off from random loot tables and instead have been moved to vendors.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  wakatack

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/07
Posts: 7

5/12/13 3:30:36 AM#23
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by wakatack

 Its amazing how what you "leave out" of a response is just as important as what you "put in"

 

Player A, spent 6 months making friends, doing group content, and earning the Epic Gear the way it was intended.

Player B, spent 6 minutes, making the transaction, to turn real money to in-game money, to purchase the gear.

Player C, was hacked, which is why they have no gear ;)

So you are butthurt because someone did not go through all of the trials and tribulations that you did? What about the guy who gets lucky and wins every roll first time through? Or the guy who ground out the gold to pay to those players to run him through?

I am sorry you are unable to understand the importance of language.

 

P.S what about the guy who never purchased a lottery ticket ever, until this one time, and they won the biggest jackpot in history....  as a regular purchaser of lottery tickets, would that make it ok for me to "Phish" that person into granting me access to the money?   

Based on your example above...  if RNG is not nice to you, then its OK to "PAY 2 WIN".

So question....   how long / how many attempts should someone make at getting these items before its OK TO PAY??

 

  mcrippins

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/07
Posts: 966

5/12/13 3:31:38 AM#24

If I buy an XP booster in a game for real cash, is that considered pay 2 win? Technically I would level faster than others who don't have one, and I would potentially get to "EPICS!!!1" faster than others. So by definition of some of the people in this discussion - that would be p2w. 

 

I personally don't see it that way. The example in World of Tanks is P2W in my eyes since the item can ONLY be acquired by purchasing it with real life money. 

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3198

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

5/12/13 3:32:53 AM#25


Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by Livnthedream So is every rng based system ever. Are you saying that all rng should be removed also?
Random number generated loot is Random your not going to a cash shop with a shopping list.
Again, why does that matter? How is it any different for the person who gets "lucky" and gets it first time and the person who has to run the dungeon 600 times to get it? Why do you think so much have been moved off from random loot tables and instead have been moved to vendors.

Buying in a cashshop is 100% odds that your going to acquire THE item you want.

Running a dungeon under rng has the same odds for everyone. Everyone gets a dice roll and a chance to win.

Sounds like a perfectly fair system to me.


Why do i think its moved to vendor bassed gear distro? Because people lack patients to play, and want it NOW.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

 
OP  5/12/13 3:33:34 AM#26
Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?
  Cod_Eye

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1006

5/12/13 3:38:37 AM#27

I should buy some homing golf balls next time I play Golf then I can win, according to some people here it would be okay to do that, because then I would be on the same footing as the top players.

The ability to buy your way through a game gives no value to the game or gives that satisfaction of accomplishment.  I bet all these people that pay their way through games use God mode and use other cheats to get through single player game to.

  seanfitzs

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 14

5/12/13 3:42:28 AM#28
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/12/13 3:45:51 AM#29
Originally posted by wakatack

P.S what about the guy who never purchased a lottery ticket ever, until this one time, and they won the biggest jackpot in history....  as a regular purchaser of lottery tickets, would that make it ok for me to "Phish" that person into granting me access to the money?   

Life is not exactly a competitive game. While you most certainly treat it that way if you choose they are not comparable.

Based on your example above...  if RNG is not nice to you, then its OK to "PAY 2 WIN".

So question....   how long / how many attempts should someone make at getting these items before its OK TO PAY??

No, because that is not p2w. That is pay for convience. For one who talks about the importance of language I do not think you understand what "win" actually is.

 

Originally posted by Nitth

Buying in a cashshop is 100% odds that your going to acquire THE item you want.

Running a dungeon under rng has the same odds for everyone. Everyone gets a dice roll and a chance to win.

Sounds like a perfectly fair system to me.


Why do i think its moved to vendor bassed gear distro? Because people lack patients to play, and want it NOW.

How do you figure exactly? Considering the number of days/weeks one much save up the currency required to buy it from said vendor. As for fair, so is socialism, does not mean its a good form of government.

Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

Not quite. Transfer of accounts are rather clearly against eula for a number if legal reasons. On top of which generally flat buying levels is not allowed because devs want you to actually play their content to some extent or another.

What I find funny is that micro transactions of this type has been happening between players since well before ebay was a thing, yet when developers move to fill that space they get shit on for it.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3198

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

5/12/13 3:46:49 AM#30


Originally posted by seanfitzs

Originally posted by SoMuchMass Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?
You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.


How does that logic make any sense. the player that reaches 'cap' first will alwas keep progressing in some form, Usually what happens is new cap content will open up for him/her while you still killing rats in the swamp.

....

Why cant it be simple. Everyone plays a game by its rules without outside influences.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/12/13 3:47:00 AM#31
Originally posted by Cod_Eye

I should buy some homing golf balls next time I play Golf then I can win, according to some people here it would be okay to do that, because then I would be on the same footing as the top players.

The ability to buy your way through a game gives no value to the game or gives that satisfaction of accomplishment.  I bet all these people that pay their way through games use God mode and use other cheats to get through single player game to.

Stop equating gear with skill. Or that even spending the time is a skill. Your analogy does not stand.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6822

5/12/13 3:47:08 AM#32

 


Originally posted by SoMuchMass

 

What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?


 

There is none, it is a meaningless term serving to point fingers. [mod edit]

  Skullagrim

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/13
Posts: 60

Gaming is a healthy escape for the mind

5/12/13 3:47:18 AM#33
They might as well sell leveled characters. Max leveled character $80 and have the price drop every ten levels. Increase this, increase that, for this much time. Buy gems! trade for gold! Yeah, I am starting to have a hate for it. As I posted earlier, I was one that would cough up the dough for it. lol 
  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

 
OP  5/12/13 3:47:31 AM#34
Originally posted by seanfitzs
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.

I don't agree with the logic but your definition of P2Win is "Buying an in-game advantage that you can't buy with in game currency".

And if a person can buy a max level character with full epics, that effects me significantly in PvP as I will get destroyed for weeks if not months doing what he did with a click of a button.  Even if I am the hardcore player that leveled really fast, I would be owned by people who bought an in game advantage.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3198

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

5/12/13 3:48:57 AM#35

nvm


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  seanfitzs

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 14

5/12/13 3:51:45 AM#36
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by seanfitzs
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.

I don't agree with the logic but your definition of P2Win is "Buying an in-game advantage that you can't buy with in game currency".

And if a person can buy a max level character with full epics, that effects me significantly in PvP as I will get destroyed for weeks if not months doing what he did with a click of a button.  Even if I am the hardcore player that leveled really fast, I would be owned by people who bought an in game advantage.

I was not saying it is ok to buy a max lvl char i was just pointing out who gets cheated. you should never buy levels, my point was about the p2w issue, people progress at different speeds i dont care how long or by what method they got there we all end up fairly equal in the end if there is no p2w, p2w only occurs if I can buy something more powerfull with money and in most games you cannot

  seanfitzs

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 14

5/12/13 3:54:48 AM#37
Originally posted by seanfitzs
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by seanfitzs
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Based on some peoples logic here, if I started an MMO and could buy a character at max level with full epics when the game launches it would not be F2P?  Since you can do that in game anyway?

You are correct, if you buy that char and in 6 months I get to max level with epics, we are both on an equal footing but who got cheated, it would be you because I played the game for 6 months and had a blast and felt pride in my task.

Did it bother me that you got you char in 5 min's no. it did not effect me at all, you lost out by buying it.

If I go up against your char in pvp and another char that grinded out the gear I don't know the difference and don't care.

Cash should just be to help you along because you don't have the time other people have, if you just buy everything you just cheat yourself not the game.

I don't agree with the logic but your definition of P2Win is "Buying an in-game advantage that you can't buy with in game currency".

And if a person can buy a max level character with full epics, that effects me significantly in PvP as I will get destroyed for weeks if not months doing what he did with a click of a button.  Even if I am the hardcore player that leveled really fast, I would be owned by people who bought an in game advantage.

I was not saying it is ok to buy a max lvl char i was just pointing out who gets cheated. you should never buy levels, my point was about the p2w issue, people progress at different speeds i dont care how long or by what method they got there we all end up fairly equal in the end if there is no p2w, p2w only occurs if I can buy something more powerfull with money and in most games you cannot

also on your pvp issue, i played wow for a few years never did pvp, when i tried it I was miles behind everyone else and i got raped for months and had to sit in the corner grinding gear the other players might have paid they may not, I still got raped until i got gear

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5117

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

5/12/13 3:58:35 AM#38
developers have only fooled the ones who paid and supported the games that offer pay to win while hiding behind the "devs need to eat" comment. Devs eat as well by selling non pay to win stuff that are cool and good. So yeah, silly people whoever supports pay to win and defend it with lame excuses.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2666

5/12/13 3:58:48 AM#39

I want to say three things and step back and watch how this thread goes on:

1) Pay2Win = getting an item for cash which is A) better than any other of its class in-game and B) cannot be trade to other players. For an example of this check out the game Gunbound (if it is still kicking of course).

2) Paying to get to the endgame faster is not pay to win, it is pay to avoid grind or how I like to put it: play to avoid fun and human interactions.

3) World of Tanks Premium ammo back when it was gold only was not a clear advantage, yes it was better than regular armour piercing ammo in penetration stats but APCR ammo can bounce just as easily as AP ammo off sloped/angled armor and HEAT shells had catastrophically good penetration with the damage of a high explosive shell and ignored slopping on armor but was close range stuff, beyond 300 meters penetration power of the round would go down to around standard High Explosive round rapidly (a HE shell has craptastic penetration for reference) and HEAT ammo is usually found on low velocity howitzer guns (such as the infamous german 105 mm gun) which have bad accuracy to begin with, slow aiming time and the shell arc is ballistic which means if you see them pointing their gun at you in time you have more than enough split seconds to pull your tank into cover/pull back/show em your tracks (tracks have a nasty tendency to eat HE and HEAT shots). Premium ammo was also very expensive to shoot when it was gold only (you could spend dozens of dollars in ammo in a few hours) and even now with the possibility to buy all premium consumables and ammo for credits it is still very expensive to do so (but most tier 7+ tanks carry 5-10 premium shells now when they run into a tier 10 or a british tank destroyer to have some hope in Hell of doing something). Ergo all this considered World of Tanks was never pay 2 win, it was close when gold only stuff existed but now with the move to credit purchases it has gone full Free 2 play.

  Skullagrim

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/13
Posts: 60

Gaming is a healthy escape for the mind

5/12/13 4:00:41 AM#40
In the end I believe it's not "p2w". It's more getting to the end at a faster pace, bc of cash shop items. Which would be winning in some peoples minds. Everybody wants to finish first. So they can stand around in cities and say look at me! j/k lol
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