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World of Warcraft

World of Warcraft 

General Discussion  » Top Guid Calls it Quits: The Balance Between Increased Content Distribution and a Compelling Treadmill

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49 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

OP  5/10/13 2:30:13 PM#41
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by Homitu


This is the corner that these modern "Themepark" type MMOs work themselves into.

The "endgame" of this brand of MMO is essentially getting gear (from raids & highly competitive PvP scenarios) that will give you stats that will enable you run future raids that will give you gear that will enable you to run future raids, etc, etc.

That's a very boiled down scenario....but after running the track for 3+ expansions.....all the cheap little gimmicks they add to raid content to disguise the fact that you're on a gear treadmill fade much quicker.

And as vet players have spent more & more hours perfecting the raiding process, they demand more content in shorter cycles, which...ironically, just speeds up the eventual burn-out process that much faster.


To the OP's point of making content's not as simple of a fix as you think.

WOW has been able to appeal to a massive casual crowd, while also satisfying "hard-core" players with competitive raiding & PvP.  Probably sensing that the 1-2% of dedicated raiding community was getting board & stale, they attempted to inject new blood into the raiding scene by lowering the amount of time, coordination, gear requirements to experience raid level that more of the general playerbase could participate. (Also see LFR system)

In doing so, they've have accelerated the fatigue level of a larger percentage of the playerbase with this VERY iterative dungeon crawling process.

Because there is so little content in Themepark MMOs left up to players to generate, once everyone has run a raid level dungeon 50+ times, there is nowhere else to go.  Where a sandbox MMO would allow individual players to persue their own goals @ their own pace (build a house, build riches, build a name in the crafting community & economy, etc.).....themepark MMOs heard everyone into only a handfull of archtypes, most of which include engaging in combat to collect 10 wolf pelts or killing a boss 100 times to get a piece of gear.

I agree with pretty much everything you say (mostly because most of your post just agrees with mine :p).  I never thought there was an easy solution though.  I just pointed to the BC era as an example of what I believed to be the best iteration of such a treadmill system.  In addition to the extreme difficulty of some of the content, I think the fact that so much content was available at the launch of the expansion was also a huge contributing factor to the expansion's lasting power.  Perhaps the  attunement criteria had something to do with it too.  If you look at the raids and dungeons on the wow wiki, you very quickly see how there was just so much more in BC - and that it was almost all made available immediately upon the xpac's release.  It was just the difficulty and attuning requirements that made it take so many groups so long to get through it.  It felt like one continual purpose throughout the xpac, all leading to Illidan. 

Take WotlK, by contrast (an expansion I still enjoyed immensely at the time.)  There was only Malygos, Sarth, and Naxx (which was just a redone older raid) at launch.  And they were all significantly easier than anything in BC.  I remember clearing 8 bosses in Naxx the very day I hit level 80 with just a raid of 7 people, wearing nothing but quest gear and a few heroic pieces.  It was a blast in the moment, but ultimately very sad for the state of content difficulty.  Many people got bored and left before Ulduar even came out (which actually ended up being the great redeeming surprise of the expansion.) 

All that is to say, there's something to be said about difficulty. 

Concerning your point about filling in the gaps with sandboxy elements and player generated content, I think this is a great idea.  There's such a split between the sandbox and themepark communities because players love to create dichotomies where there don't necessarily have to be any.  I think it's perfectly feasible to have a hardcore raid progression treadmill system as well as lots of player generated content. 


Novice Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 190

5/10/13 2:30:57 PM#42
its a slow death WoW.  In the meantime Blizz is still making a killing in the process.

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1707

5/10/13 2:34:18 PM#43

Some took issue with something another poster wrote, that I happen to think made a lot of sense. 

If the OP had been writing about a "top competitive PvP" guild that was calling it quits due to the required gear grind, I wouldn't agree with that poster. 


However, the OP was the same complaint raiders have been making since BC released.  It may be sensible to someone that likes raiding, but for those of us that it feels a little to much like playing fetch and we're the dog we may not. 


No one complains they burnt out on "comradery", it's always the gear grind.  The whole point of raiding is the gear grind though. 


Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

5/10/13 2:57:06 PM#44
Originally posted by Tamanous

Ah good old Wow.


The game earns up to 100 times what other mmos make yet they put out content at no faster pace. Blizzard has been scamming it's player base for years.


and i guess you are one of the smart guys who are not scammed, while more than 12m ppl got scammed by blizzard all these years, right? how egoistical...


Novice Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 190

5/10/13 3:08:19 PM#45
Originally posted by Manolios
Originally posted by Tamanous

Ah good old Wow.


The game earns up to 100 times what other mmos make yet they put out content at no faster pace. Blizzard has been scamming it's player base for years.


and i guess you are one of the smart guys who are not scammed, while more than 12m ppl got scammed by blizzard all these years, right? how egoistical...

 nowhere did he suggest, imply, or state he wasn't scammed. 


Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/19/06
Posts: 1410

5/10/13 3:16:01 PM#46

I think the gear grind worked years ago but the magic is starting to wear off.  I sure hope we get some creativity-inspired developers in the years to come.  The themepark-geargrind is never going to make it big like it did for WoW and it is time for something new.




Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11861

5/10/13 3:22:46 PM#47
Originally posted by doodphace

Ya, but these guys haven't even been a top 5 guild since 2009 lol

the quitting includes Vodka too -- a #3 guild


Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1874

5/10/13 3:34:15 PM#48
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by doodphace

Ya, but these guys haven't even been a top 5 guild since 2009 lol

the quitting includes Vodka too -- a #3 guild

Vodka Tier 10 = 23rd

Vodka Tier 11 = 6th

Vodka Tier 12 = 4th

Vodka Tier 13 = 11th

Vodka Tier 14 = 4th

Vodka Tier 15 = Merged with Exodus....8th place

Where did you get that wrong information from? And the whole "that includes Vodka too"...Vodka IS Exodus. Im going to assume I misunderstood your post, because that info is somewhat easy to find.

In any event, the top few guilds in the world raid 14-16 hours a day during progression....I'm suprised they even lasted as long as they did, or that even more havent put a stop to their insane schedule either.


Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

OP  5/10/13 4:28:33 PM#49
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by Kyleran
So I came to this realization just before BC came out, which makes me look smart and these folks look like slow learners.

Hard core raiders indeed.

Let me get this assume people raid because they don't realise they are chasing a carrot,?

Can it not be because they enjoy the challenge, competitiveness, and comrodory?

 Didn't you read the OP, that's exactly what it is saying.

The treadmill moves to fast, slow it down.  To paraphrase. 

They want to slow down how often you get the next carrot.  It's just one idea for alleviate the chasing part of it, without removing it. 

I read that a guild who raided for almost 9 years is stopping.

There is no denying brun out, iv taken quite a few breaks from WoW...but my point is that its arogant to assume raiders dont realise that they are on a me...they are fully aware...

Just to quickly address each of you, since many of you seem to be putting words in each others mouths and mine, when I really don't think there's any actual quarrel to be had. 

@Kyleran, certainly everyone full well knows that they are enthralled by the pursuit of gear.  It's impossible not to realize it.  They're not slow learners.  Raiding just remains fun to them  despite the eventual arbitrariness of gear.  It's no different than level processes whereby players become more powerful only to then face more powerful enemies.  Relative to enemies, players' power remains exactly the same, thereby seemingly negating the notion of progress.  Players know this, and can still have fun leveling.   

Doodphace's alternative reasons for raiding are absolutely valid.  The competitiveness of fighting for server firsts can be intoxicating, the challenge enthralling, the comraderie exhilarating.   All of those things are what made raiding so successful.  Nobody raids only for gear.  So no, I (the OP) never said that, as Uhwop was quick to counter.  I did make the rest of the points you mentioned, Uhwop, but I never said the gear treadmill (the topic of this discussion) was an exhaustive or exclusive reason for raiding.  It can, however, be the exclusive reason some quits raiding. 

And then to counter one over-simplification, doodphace just had to use one of his own...  The original post was maybe 5% about a guild that had raided for 9 years and then stopped.   The 95% bulk was about the concept that players - especially the more hardcore players - can get burnt out faster in a gear treadmill system when smaller pockets of content are released more frequently, thereby making a commonly regarded good quality of MMOs a counterintuitive bane for many players. 

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