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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are we old farts a dying breed?

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359 posts found
  Attend4455

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 166

5/09/13 2:57:18 PM#341

 

I don't like to be called old or fart either but I can understand where the OP is coming from. I stick to P2P and B2P games now.

 

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1360

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

5/09/13 6:11:43 PM#342


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I don't think the core elements have been done away. To me the core elements were always

- lots of people online at the same time

- persistent world (in some way)

- Ability to interact with other people

All these things are still there, everything else was just something that happened in a particular game.



You just described the internet. Would you call the internet an MMO?


Originally posted by Tuor7
I would disagree that where we are today has a lot to do with what Devs thought would work. It has more to do with publishers than devs. These days, most publishers are all about money -- about profit and price per share. The Money-pigs demand ever-more profit, so the publishers look for ways to monetize the games, to draw as much cash off of those who play it as they possibly can. It is *this* attitude which has changed the way MMOs are developed, as the publishers hold the purse-strings, and the money-pigs dictate to the publishers: if the devs want to be able to put food on the table, then they have to obey, even if it means creating games designed to maximize profit.

At this point, an increasing segment of gamers are starting to see the results of the above and are growing increasingly dissatisfied about it. Publishers try to both imagine a game gamers want to play *and* a game that will maximize revenues, and if those two things conflict, they are going for revenues. They use the AOL method of selling: using marketing to appeal to people who aren't really gamers or are only marginally interested in gaming, and they succeed, since those people are effectively fresh meat. But most people in this segment of the market are *still* not gamers, and so after a while they *move on* to something else, and just like AOL, the publishers run out enough people to bring in and their revenue figures start to flatline or (horrors!) decline. Eventually the marginal gamers flock to something new and bam, the producers start to cut expenses, the game stops getting updated so much, servers start to look barren, servers merge, false hope statements come from the pubs/devs that New Things are on the horizon when the only goal is to keep the money rolling in as long as possible as the company execs start using their golden parachutes before heading off to look for a new company where they can rinse and repeat what they did before.

What we want has hardly anything to do with any of the above, because to publishers, it's not a game and we're not gamers: It's a product (a widget) and we're consumers. Our relationship with them is based on money, not on any love of games or gaming. If we offer them something that might improve their margins, they may well listen to us, but if it's only about improving the game, forget it. Yes, there are other factors, and I *am* simplifying things a bit, but not too much, IMO, and it's not just MMOs that are being treated this way: it's all throughout the electronic gaming genre. They will only really listen to our wallets, so if you want things to change, that's really the only way it will happen, I think.



+1. I normally skim through long-winded posts, but yours was a good read, filled with excellent points.



Originally posted by c0exist
...seems like you get exp just for walking around nowadays. I remember leveling with multiple parties in final fantasy 11 where you killed mobs for multiple hours just to gain 1/4 of a level...it was a privilege to hit max level not a right like it is now...with all the new games that come out that cater to the casual gamer there needs to be at least ONE game that has the elements that built the mmorpg genre.

Yes exactly. I played EQ for a long time before anyone reached max level; when someone did, we were all in awe. This experience is lost in today's gaming.


Originally posted on page 34 (lots of good stuff)

Page 34 had tons of good stuff; can't quote it all. :/

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4775

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/13 6:18:45 PM#343

If the internet was a game than yep I would call it an MMO.

Literally everything else is game specific, not genre.

Housing - nope EQ didn't have it

FFAPvp - nope not all early games had it.

Quests - pretty common, but not needed.

Avatars - you need some graphical interface but certainly not a creature (eve)

Combat- nope.  Atitd.

The only commonalities were online, lots of people online at the same time, persistant world, some ability to interact with others.  Thats it. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

5/10/13 3:35:33 AM#344

Open world too, if a MMO had come out even as late as WoW that put you on a ribbon of land that connected to small hubs I doubt it would have even been called a MMO back then.

We don't all agree about what's missing in modern MMO's but we don't need to. If a new MMO came out which had enough old school in its new school skin we would play regardless. Last MMO to do this was Lotro in my eyes, six years is a long wait.

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1563

5/10/13 3:43:53 AM#345
Originally posted by Scot If a new MMO came out which had enough old school in its new school skin we would play regardless. Last MMO to do this was Lotro in my eyes, six years is a long wait.

Can you be more specific on why you think the above.

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  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/10/13 5:03:24 AM#346
Originally posted by Spiider

I really don't understand why cant people simply accept that games are now produced for wide masses and not for selected few (hardcore gamers).

Figurative sacred cows.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

5/11/13 4:16:21 AM#347
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Scot If a new MMO came out which had enough old school in its new school skin we would play regardless. Last MMO to do this was Lotro in my eyes, six years is a long wait.

Can you be more specific on why you think the above.

 

There is simply so little choice. Rather like when PS2 came out as a MMOFPS, there was not exactly a horde of cut throat competitors out there. Where as release another easymode tiny MMO this year and you will be adding it to the huge stable of easymode tiny MMO's out there. What if anything new would it have to offer?

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/13/13 11:32:11 AM#348
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Scot If a new MMO came out which had enough old school in its new school skin we would play regardless. Last MMO to do this was Lotro in my eyes, six years is a long wait.

Can you be more specific on why you think the above.

 

There is simply so little choice. Rather like when PS2 came out as a MMOFPS, there was not exactly a horde of cut throat competitors out there. Where as release another easymode tiny MMO this year and you will be adding it to the huge stable of easymode tiny MMO's out there. What if anything new would it have to offer?

 

new setttings? new combat mechanics? Example. There are a few Diablo clones like PoE, TL2 and Marvel Heroes, and all have something different to offer.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

5/14/13 4:40:20 AM#349
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Scot If a new MMO came out which had enough old school in its new school skin we would play regardless. Last MMO to do this was Lotro in my eyes, six years is a long wait.

Can you be more specific on why you think the above.

 

There is simply so little choice. Rather like when PS2 came out as a MMOFPS, there was not exactly a horde of cut throat competitors out there. Where as release another easymode tiny MMO this year and you will be adding it to the huge stable of easymode tiny MMO's out there. What if anything new would it have to offer?

 

new setttings? new combat mechanics? Example. There are a few Diablo clones like PoE, TL2 and Marvel Heroes, and all have something different to offer.

We are talking MMO's here. You and your Diablo! And you questioned me when I said you want everything to be diablo like. We get it, you like Diablo. :)

Not sure Marvel Heroes can be called a MMO for that matter. But not following it that much to be sure. Even you like a few online games which I would call MMO's so lets stick to them when comparing MMO's.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/14/13 12:36:34 PM#350
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Scot If a new MMO came out which had enough old school in its new school skin we would play regardless. Last MMO to do this was Lotro in my eyes, six years is a long wait.

Can you be more specific on why you think the above.

 

There is simply so little choice. Rather like when PS2 came out as a MMOFPS, there was not exactly a horde of cut throat competitors out there. Where as release another easymode tiny MMO this year and you will be adding it to the huge stable of easymode tiny MMO's out there. What if anything new would it have to offer?

 

new setttings? new combat mechanics? Example. There are a few Diablo clones like PoE, TL2 and Marvel Heroes, and all have something different to offer.

We are talking MMO's here. You and your Diablo! And you questioned me when I said you want everything to be diablo like. We get it, you like Diablo. :)

Not sure Marvel Heroes can be called a MMO for that matter. But not following it that much to be sure. Even you like a few online games which I would call MMO's so lets stick to them when comparing MMO's.

How about Defiance? tie-in to tv is new.

TSW? The setting is new.

Destiny? "shared world shooter"?

Lots of new stuff

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

5/15/13 4:00:10 AM#351

"How about Defiance? tie-in to tv is new.

TSW? The setting is new.

Destiny? "shared world shooter"?

Lots of new stuff"

 

Ok Defiance is a MMOFPS but yes I agree we have so few of those it is breaking new ground.

TSW, very different setting and combat quite newish.

So only 2 in 12 months? I would add SWOTR actually but not GW2. So three. Three MMO's with something different in a year, its actually not been that bad a year, true.

Now lets go back to when Lotro started six years ago. In that space of time I would only add AoC as trying something different and maybe I am being nostalgic there. I would lump PS2 in with Defiance, I don't think every new MMOFPS gets its own spot.

So that's four in six years, does not look so good now does it? Others may have there own idea of ground breakers, would be interesting to see what they think.

Also my original point was more to say you will struggle bringing out a standard MMO as we simply have so many. Unless you can do the normal template really well like GW2, your success will be limited.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/15/13 10:46:33 AM#352
Originally posted by Scot

"How about Defiance? tie-in to tv is new.

TSW? The setting is new.

Destiny? "shared world shooter"?

Lots of new stuff"

 

Ok Defiance is a MMOFPS but yes I agree we have so few of those it is breaking new ground.

TSW, very different setting and combat quite newish.

So only 2 in 12 months? I would add SWOTR actually but not GW2. So three. Three MMO's with something different in a year, its actually not been that bad a year, true.

Now lets go back to when Lotro started six years ago. In that space of time I would only add AoC as trying something different and maybe I am being nostalgic there. I would lump PS2 in with Defiance, I don't think every new MMOFPS gets its own spot.

So that's four in six years, does not look so good now does it? Others may have there own idea of ground breakers, would be interesting to see what they think.

Also my original point was more to say you will struggle bringing out a standard MMO as we simply have so many. Unless you can do the normal template really well like GW2, your success will be limited.


Add in LoL, WoT, D3 (i count it as new because of the build system), and other close-to but non-MMOs, and suddenly there are lots of new stuff to try out.

BTW, i would also add Marvel Heroes .. although the game is not very polished, it is new .. a hybrid ARPG/MMO with known marvel characters. There was no MMO close to it before.

Add in PS2 ... Add in Dust 514 and we have quite a lot in the last 2-3 years.

Sure the number may be lower if you go back in time more. But most of these games are recent .. so i can safely say devs are trying new stuff in the recent 1-2 year time frame and there are more to come.

 

  Zeymere

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/05
Posts: 175

No...
Not without incident.

5/15/13 10:53:53 AM#353
Yes.
  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

5/16/13 4:33:59 AM#354
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

"How about Defiance? tie-in to tv is new.

TSW? The setting is new.

Destiny? "shared world shooter"?

Lots of new stuff"

 

Ok Defiance is a MMOFPS but yes I agree we have so few of those it is breaking new ground.

TSW, very different setting and combat quite newish.

So only 2 in 12 months? I would add SWOTR actually but not GW2. So three. Three MMO's with something different in a year, its actually not been that bad a year, true.

Now lets go back to when Lotro started six years ago. In that space of time I would only add AoC as trying something different and maybe I am being nostalgic there. I would lump PS2 in with Defiance, I don't think every new MMOFPS gets its own spot.

So that's four in six years, does not look so good now does it? Others may have there own idea of ground breakers, would be interesting to see what they think.

Also my original point was more to say you will struggle bringing out a standard MMO as we simply have so many. Unless you can do the normal template really well like GW2, your success will be limited.


Add in LoL, WoT, D3 (i count it as new because of the build system), and other close-to but non-MMOs, and suddenly there are lots of new stuff to try out.

BTW, i would also add Marvel Heroes .. although the game is not very polished, it is new .. a hybrid ARPG/MMO with known marvel characters. There was no MMO close to it before.

Add in PS2 ... Add in Dust 514 and we have quite a lot in the last 2-3 years.

Sure the number may be lower if you go back in time more. But most of these games are recent .. so i can safely say devs are trying new stuff in the recent 1-2 year time frame and there are more to come.

 

 

We have had a good year, but you are throwing in WoT and D3 (Diablo again) when I am talking about MMO's. Both good online games but not MMOs. What this points to is that developers are trying to make more innovative MMOs, but what you see in one year may be just a coincidence, only time will tell.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/16/13 9:28:20 AM#355
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

"How about Defiance? tie-in to tv is new.

TSW? The setting is new.

Destiny? "shared world shooter"?

Lots of new stuff"

 

Ok Defiance is a MMOFPS but yes I agree we have so few of those it is breaking new ground.

TSW, very different setting and combat quite newish.

So only 2 in 12 months? I would add SWOTR actually but not GW2. So three. Three MMO's with something different in a year, its actually not been that bad a year, true.

Now lets go back to when Lotro started six years ago. In that space of time I would only add AoC as trying something different and maybe I am being nostalgic there. I would lump PS2 in with Defiance, I don't think every new MMOFPS gets its own spot.

So that's four in six years, does not look so good now does it? Others may have there own idea of ground breakers, would be interesting to see what they think.

Also my original point was more to say you will struggle bringing out a standard MMO as we simply have so many. Unless you can do the normal template really well like GW2, your success will be limited.


Add in LoL, WoT, D3 (i count it as new because of the build system), and other close-to but non-MMOs, and suddenly there are lots of new stuff to try out.

BTW, i would also add Marvel Heroes .. although the game is not very polished, it is new .. a hybrid ARPG/MMO with known marvel characters. There was no MMO close to it before.

Add in PS2 ... Add in Dust 514 and we have quite a lot in the last 2-3 years.

Sure the number may be lower if you go back in time more. But most of these games are recent .. so i can safely say devs are trying new stuff in the recent 1-2 year time frame and there are more to come.

 

 

We have had a good year, but you are throwing in WoT and D3 (Diablo again) when I am talking about MMO's. Both good online games but not MMOs. What this points to is that developers are trying to make more innovative MMOs, but what you see in one year may be just a coincidence, only time will tell.

 

WoT and D3 are close enough to me.

In fact, i expect the market to move away from pure MMO and have more online games with some MMO elements. The makers of WoT is now making two more games which i am following.

Sooner or later, there will be more debate about definitions of MMOs here, just because devs are innovating and there will be games that are close to MMOs but not MMOs strictly by someone's definition.

Personally i think it is a good thing. Devs are innovating if the definitions of these games are getting fuzzy.

Just like Borderland .. great game ... do you call it  a FPS or a RPG?

 

  Tjed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 161

5/16/13 9:39:37 AM#356
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

"How about Defiance? tie-in to tv is new.

TSW? The setting is new.

Destiny? "shared world shooter"?

Lots of new stuff"

 

Ok Defiance is a MMOFPS but yes I agree we have so few of those it is breaking new ground.

TSW, very different setting and combat quite newish.

So only 2 in 12 months? I would add SWOTR actually but not GW2. So three. Three MMO's with something different in a year, its actually not been that bad a year, true.

Now lets go back to when Lotro started six years ago. In that space of time I would only add AoC as trying something different and maybe I am being nostalgic there. I would lump PS2 in with Defiance, I don't think every new MMOFPS gets its own spot.

So that's four in six years, does not look so good now does it? Others may have there own idea of ground breakers, would be interesting to see what they think.

Also my original point was more to say you will struggle bringing out a standard MMO as we simply have so many. Unless you can do the normal template really well like GW2, your success will be limited.


Add in LoL, WoT, D3 (i count it as new because of the build system), and other close-to but non-MMOs, and suddenly there are lots of new stuff to try out.

BTW, i would also add Marvel Heroes .. although the game is not very polished, it is new .. a hybrid ARPG/MMO with known marvel characters. There was no MMO close to it before.

Add in PS2 ... Add in Dust 514 and we have quite a lot in the last 2-3 years.

Sure the number may be lower if you go back in time more. But most of these games are recent .. so i can safely say devs are trying new stuff in the recent 1-2 year time frame and there are more to come.

 

 

We have had a good year, but you are throwing in WoT and D3 (Diablo again) when I am talking about MMO's. Both good online games but not MMOs. What this points to is that developers are trying to make more innovative MMOs, but what you see in one year may be just a coincidence, only time will tell.

 

WoT and D3 are close enough to me.

In fact, i expect the market to move away from pure MMO and have more online games with some MMO elements. The makers of WoT is now making two more games which i am following.

Sooner or later, there will be more debate about definitions of MMOs here, just because devs are innovating and there will be games that are close to MMOs but not MMOs strictly by someone's definition.

Personally i think it is a good thing. Devs are innovating if the definitions of these games are getting fuzzy.

Just like Borderland .. great game ... do you call it  a FPS or a RPG?

 

I'll agree that the market will probably go that way.  Why change the definition of the term MMORPG?  To me, diablo, poe, the new marvel game, all of those are action role playing games.  It even lists poe as such on it's website.  I have seen them called that since diablo 2.  I love these games, there fun, and sometimes it can be a real headache to try to classify games under one specific category, but these seem easy to me.  Like you always say, if they're fun, play them.  I don't see how that translates to smashing them into a category where they don't fit.  The genre has changed and still retained it's defining characteristics.  EQ and other older games were much different from WOW and SWTOR and such, but those are all still MMORPGs.  Wildstar, ESO, EQnext are MMORPGs coming out in the near future.  poe, diablo, and marvel heroes are action role playing games.  I've always heard them described as such, and they fit nicely into those different categories.   

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/16/13 10:27:34 AM#357
Originally posted by Tjed

 

I'll agree that the market will probably go that way.  Why change the definition of the term MMORPG?  To me, diablo, poe, the new marvel game, all of those are action role playing games.  It even lists poe as such on it's website.  I have seen them called that since diablo 2.  I love these games, there fun, and sometimes it can be a real headache to try to classify games under one specific category, but these seem easy to me.  Like you always say, if they're fun, play them.  I don't see how that translates to smashing them into a category where they don't fit.  The genre has changed and still retained it's defining characteristics.  EQ and other older games were much different from WOW and SWTOR and such, but those are all still MMORPGs.  Wildstar, ESO, EQnext are MMORPGs coming out in the near future.  poe, diablo, and marvel heroes are action role playing games.  I've always heard them described as such, and they fit nicely into those different categories.   

Oh .. i am not advocating about changing the definition of MMORPG. I am just saying i don't care about the definition, and i certainly do not only consider MMORPGs. Games like D3, WoT, Marvel heroes ... are close enough in play style to MMORPG for me that i don't really make a distinction when i choose what to play.

You can call them online ARPG.

The key is that devs are trying different things, providing us with new experiences. Whether these games should be classified as MMORPGs .. matter very little to me.

 

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

5/17/13 3:49:22 AM#358
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

"How about Defiance? tie-in to tv is new.

TSW? The setting is new.

Destiny? "shared world shooter"?

Lots of new stuff"

 

Ok Defiance is a MMOFPS but yes I agree we have so few of those it is breaking new ground.

TSW, very different setting and combat quite newish.

So only 2 in 12 months? I would add SWOTR actually but not GW2. So three. Three MMO's with something different in a year, its actually not been that bad a year, true.

Now lets go back to when Lotro started six years ago. In that space of time I would only add AoC as trying something different and maybe I am being nostalgic there. I would lump PS2 in with Defiance, I don't think every new MMOFPS gets its own spot.

So that's four in six years, does not look so good now does it? Others may have there own idea of ground breakers, would be interesting to see what they think.

Also my original point was more to say you will struggle bringing out a standard MMO as we simply have so many. Unless you can do the normal template really well like GW2, your success will be limited.


Add in LoL, WoT, D3 (i count it as new because of the build system), and other close-to but non-MMOs, and suddenly there are lots of new stuff to try out.

BTW, i would also add Marvel Heroes .. although the game is not very polished, it is new .. a hybrid ARPG/MMO with known marvel characters. There was no MMO close to it before.

Add in PS2 ... Add in Dust 514 and we have quite a lot in the last 2-3 years.

Sure the number may be lower if you go back in time more. But most of these games are recent .. so i can safely say devs are trying new stuff in the recent 1-2 year time frame and there are more to come.

 

 

We have had a good year, but you are throwing in WoT and D3 (Diablo again) when I am talking about MMO's. Both good online games but not MMOs. What this points to is that developers are trying to make more innovative MMOs, but what you see in one year may be just a coincidence, only time will tell.

 

WoT and D3 are close enough to me.

In fact, i expect the market to move away from pure MMO and have more online games with some MMO elements. The makers of WoT is now making two more games which i am following.

Sooner or later, there will be more debate about definitions of MMOs here, just because devs are innovating and there will be games that are close to MMOs but not MMOs strictly by someone's definition.

Personally i think it is a good thing. Devs are innovating if the definitions of these games are getting fuzzy.

Just like Borderland .. great game ... do you call it  a FPS or a RPG?

 

We have discussed this before, nothing wrong with games taking ideas from each other, I just don't want to end up with one "best fit". Which is an attempt to get as many players in the game as possible. Old style MMO design still shows the new boys what can be done, but as I keep saying they have come with some great new ideas as well.

Borderland, not played it, but it has been on my list since it came out. From what friends say and what I have seen it pushes the envelope. I notice you did not say MMO, just FPS or RPG, that's looks about right. Friends do recommend it, so its one I need to try.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/17/13 12:22:19 PM#359
Originally posted by Scot

 

We have discussed this before, nothing wrong with games taking ideas from each other, I just don't want to end up with one "best fit". Which is an attempt to get as many players in the game as possible. Old style MMO design still shows the new boys what can be done, but as I keep saying they have come with some great new ideas as well.

Borderland, not played it, but it has been on my list since it came out. From what friends say and what I have seen it pushes the envelope. I notice you did not say MMO, just FPS or RPG, that's looks about right. Friends do recommend it, so its one I need to try.

 

I think my whole point is that there is no one "best fit". There are so many different types of games i was pointing out. Having said that, not all ideas are equal. Old style MMO designs are abandoned for a reason. I have no doubt some may try to revive it ... but it all boils down to supply & demand .. and see if the market will accept it.

Borderland (the first one) should be cheap now. It is basically a cross between Diablo type action RPG (with skill tree no less, and lots of loot) and FPS (so combat is FPS). It is very fun.

 

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