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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » My opinion on the Hero Engine

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66 posts found
  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13314

5/08/13 1:15:18 PM#41
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by severius
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by Gdemami

What is your work experience with Hero and other engines? What projects did you work on with each? Can you elaborate on the differences that makes Hero engine inferior?

[mod edit]

How many games have been developed on it and released so far?  Its a new engine and most devs are still learning how to use it.

a decade is not new in the technology field.

The only two I know of are SW:TOR and Faxion Online.Both of which engine wise were craptastic.

An engine is gonna be judged by the games made with it.All the defenders talking about how great it really is is just that TALK.Until something is released that proves that the Hero engine is great in practice it deserves it's reputation.

I could make a spectacularly awful game with any game engine.  That doesn't prove that the engine is bad, but only that an off-the-shelf game engine can't create a complete game by itself.

  User Deleted
5/08/13 1:21:54 PM#42
I'm willing to bet most people here wouldn't be able to tell the difference between two game engines if they weren't told which was which.  Most of you would probably end up confusing it with the rendering engine, anyway.
  wowclones

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 133

5/08/13 1:57:22 PM#43
We have seen bad games made in Unreal, Cryengine and Unity, does it mean the engines suck?
  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1918

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  5/09/13 7:28:55 AM#44
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by BearKnight

 

The full-sourcecode version is "Ok". However, their server back-end design concept is terrible. It can't handle more than about 50 to 100 players in the same area without crushing your server. You essentially have to section off people from each other if you want to do an "open world" game.

 

If you want to do anything other than Themepark, use Unity.

Now we didn't stick with hero long but we ran a few tests in one little area and had over 50 people connect with no issues at all on the demo server we had.. still it was not a proper test.

Thinking about it i did help do a stress test on Dominus and that had 100s of players running around in the same area attacking NPCs and so on.. was a bit dodgy but was a very early build.

Anyway yeah we are using unity as well now.. our programmers liked it better

 

Having 100 players near enough to each other that they need to be informed of the rest of the players and able to move around and see each other moving around in real time is hard to do, period.  A game that needs something along those lines is going to have to find and implement some major optimizations (i.e., we don't have to tell this player what these other players are doing as often because of such and such) that will work for their particular game but wouldn't work for a lot of others, so expecting to have that built into an off-the-shelf game engine is unreasonable.

How is it unreasonable? Asian MMOs have PvP wars with 1000vs1000 players (Aika Online for example). If an engine can handle 1kvs1k than expecting an engine to be able to handle 100 people in the same area and run smoothly really shouldn't be that huge of a deal.

Smile

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1918

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  5/09/13 7:30:39 AM#45
Originally posted by wowclones
We have seen bad games made in Unreal, Cryengine and Unity, does it mean the engines suck?

Yeah, but those engines produced good games too. The Hero Engine... Nope.

Smile

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13314

5/09/13 7:33:21 AM#46
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by BearKnight

 

The full-sourcecode version is "Ok". However, their server back-end design concept is terrible. It can't handle more than about 50 to 100 players in the same area without crushing your server. You essentially have to section off people from each other if you want to do an "open world" game.

 

If you want to do anything other than Themepark, use Unity.

Now we didn't stick with hero long but we ran a few tests in one little area and had over 50 people connect with no issues at all on the demo server we had.. still it was not a proper test.

Thinking about it i did help do a stress test on Dominus and that had 100s of players running around in the same area attacking NPCs and so on.. was a bit dodgy but was a very early build.

Anyway yeah we are using unity as well now.. our programmers liked it better

 

Having 100 players near enough to each other that they need to be informed of the rest of the players and able to move around and see each other moving around in real time is hard to do, period.  A game that needs something along those lines is going to have to find and implement some major optimizations (i.e., we don't have to tell this player what these other players are doing as often because of such and such) that will work for their particular game but wouldn't work for a lot of others, so expecting to have that built into an off-the-shelf game engine is unreasonable.

How is it unreasonable? Asian MMOs have PvP wars with 1000vs1000 players (Aika Online for example). If an engine can handle 1kvs1k than expecting an engine to be able to handle 100 people in the same area and run smoothly really shouldn't be that huge of a deal.

How big of an "area" are we talking about?  If you have 1000 players so spread out that any particular player never needs the server to tell him about more than five others at a time, then yeah, that's pretty easy.  The 1000 doesn't matter much; the 5 is the limiting factor.

But if they're bunched up enough that the server has to tell you about 100 other players moving around and attacking in real time, and you have to actually draw half of them on your screen, then a game engine is going to have to make some major sacrifices to make that work.  It can be done, but you're going to have to sacrifice some things that you'd rather not--and wouldn't unless being able to have lots of players bunched tightly is a major priority for you.

In many, many places in game design, there is no perfect solution, but only trade-offs.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1918

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  5/09/13 7:37:36 AM#47
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by BearKnight

 

The full-sourcecode version is "Ok". However, their server back-end design concept is terrible. It can't handle more than about 50 to 100 players in the same area without crushing your server. You essentially have to section off people from each other if you want to do an "open world" game.

 

If you want to do anything other than Themepark, use Unity.

Now we didn't stick with hero long but we ran a few tests in one little area and had over 50 people connect with no issues at all on the demo server we had.. still it was not a proper test.

Thinking about it i did help do a stress test on Dominus and that had 100s of players running around in the same area attacking NPCs and so on.. was a bit dodgy but was a very early build.

Anyway yeah we are using unity as well now.. our programmers liked it better

 

Having 100 players near enough to each other that they need to be informed of the rest of the players and able to move around and see each other moving around in real time is hard to do, period.  A game that needs something along those lines is going to have to find and implement some major optimizations (i.e., we don't have to tell this player what these other players are doing as often because of such and such) that will work for their particular game but wouldn't work for a lot of others, so expecting to have that built into an off-the-shelf game engine is unreasonable.

How is it unreasonable? Asian MMOs have PvP wars with 1000vs1000 players (Aika Online for example). If an engine can handle 1kvs1k than expecting an engine to be able to handle 100 people in the same area and run smoothly really shouldn't be that huge of a deal.

How big of an "area" are we talking about?  If you have 1000 players so spread out that any particular player never needs the server to tell him about more than five others at a time, then yeah, that's pretty easy.  The 1000 doesn't matter much; the 5 is the limiting factor.

But if they're bunched up enough that the server has to tell you about 100 other players moving around and attacking in real time, and you have to actually draw half of them on your screen, then a game engine is going to have to make some major sacrifices to make that work.  It can be done, but you're going to have to sacrifice some things that you'd rather not--and wouldn't unless being able to have lots of players bunched tightly is a major priority for you.

In many, many places in game design, there is no perfect solution, but only trade-offs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

Smile

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/09/13 7:52:12 AM#48
Originally posted by Razeekster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

Wait, weren't you supposed to be showing us 1000vs1000?

At no point did that video exceed more than ~40 toons on-screen.

*sniff* I've got some marketing hype on my shoe.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4115

5/09/13 7:55:36 AM#49

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

Are those 1000v1000 pvp battles instanced? IF so how big are the maps they are on and is everyone fighting in one tiny area or are they spread out over a big pvp area? That video does not show that many people in the same area at the same time..

 

I only know a few engines off the top of my head that can really do large scale PVP battles.

Darkfall and planetside 2s engine are ones that pop to mind i am sure there are a few others .Never really seen anything about that game you mention tho so cant comment on that one.. Also Unity with some 3rd party network add ons is capable of large scale pvp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB-OPqEGT5A

 

Most themepark games these days limit the amount of people in zones or make separate instances..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13314

5/09/13 8:31:11 AM#50
Originally posted by Razeekster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

And so you respond with a trailer video that isn't even actual gameplay?  Drawing 1000 characters at once for a trailer when you don't have to render it in real time is pretty easy to do.  What you sacrifice is not being able to render it in real time--i.e., not being able to implement it in real gameplay.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1918

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  5/09/13 12:09:10 PM#51
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

And so you respond with a trailer video that isn't even actual gameplay?  Drawing 1000 characters at once for a trailer when you don't have to render it in real time is pretty easy to do.  What you sacrifice is not being able to render it in real time--i.e., not being able to implement it in real gameplay.

The game can have 1000vs1000. Otherwise it wouldn't say it could... I mean like what? Really going to sit their and deny it when it freaking lists it as one of it's main features? Sorry that I found a trailer instead of other people playing the game. Jeeze, way to be nitpicky people.

Smile

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13314

5/09/13 1:50:13 PM#52
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

And so you respond with a trailer video that isn't even actual gameplay?  Drawing 1000 characters at once for a trailer when you don't have to render it in real time is pretty easy to do.  What you sacrifice is not being able to render it in real time--i.e., not being able to implement it in real gameplay.

The game can have 1000vs1000. Otherwise it wouldn't say it could... I mean like what? Really going to sit their and deny it when it freaking lists it as one of it's main features? Sorry that I found a trailer instead of other people playing the game. Jeeze, way to be nitpicky people.

Did you even read the message that you replied to with that video?  Having a huge battle with 1000 players on each side is pretty trivial to do if they're so spread out that the server only has to tell you about a few other players at a time.  The proper question is not how many players per side on a server, but how many players that are near enough that the game has to keep you updated on what they're doing in real time.  And color me skeptical that that's anywhere remotely near 2000.

  nakuma

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/06
Posts: 1323

"then again I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion" -Dennis Miller

5/09/13 1:53:42 PM#53
I had training in Hero's Engine through Simutronics back at the end of 2009. and other than the collaboration tools, the rest of the engine is total crap specifically with the absolutely outdated rendering engine they use. I eventually in 2012 tried it again the performance was absolutely wretched. Why on earth any development studio worth its guff would even contemplate using such an archaic, outdated Engine is beyond me.

3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.

  nakuma

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/06
Posts: 1323

"then again I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion" -Dennis Miller

5/09/13 1:56:20 PM#54
Originally posted by JamesP
Originally posted by DSWBeef
The Hero engine 2 years ago sucked. Just look at swtor. Now its a very good engine. Sure its no cryengine or unreal but its not abysmal.

SWTOR is a VERY bad example of what the HeroEngine can accomplish even 2 years ago. Bioware purchased a license for a unfinished version of the HeroEngine and completely redid the rendering engine and other key parts of the engine. 

Exactly, given they were only using the base collaboration tools and some of the networking (even then they customized alot of the server/network infrastructure) they also gutted the rendering engine; which pretty nullifies its mentioning as a "very good engine". But I won't deny I loved the collaboration tools for dnyamic teams within the same project, and updating stuff at the same time with ability to update the game dynamically and not worry about compiling nightly builds, the rest is something to be desired at the very least. However, to have to gut the crappy engine, customize the server code and network code kind of detracts away from buying it in the first place if you have to replace so much of the base code. BUt the rendering engine is the worst offender of all including the scripting which was annoying to say the least.

3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.

  WhiteLantern

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 2778

5/09/13 2:03:36 PM#55
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Razeekster
My opinion is that it's a piece of utter crap and I can't actually believe that when ZeniMax decided to use it for the Elder Scrolls Online that Bethesda didn't tell them to change it. I can't actually even believe that ZeniMax decided to use it in the first place! Is it just because it's cheap? I don't get it but it makes me extremely wary on forming any opinions from articles on ESO.

You got even that part wrong.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/25/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-isn-39-t-using-heroengine.aspx

 

You licensed HeroEngine a long time ago. What role did the Hero Engine play in the development of ESO?

We started ZeniMax Online from scratch, with no employees and no technology. We had to build everything ourselves. It takes a long time to write game engines, especially MMO engines, which are inherently more complicated than typical single-player ones. So, we decided to license the HeroEngine to give us a headstart. It was a useful tool for us to use to prototype areas and game design concepts, and it provided us the ability to get art into the game that was visible, so we could work on the game’s art style. Our plan is for ESO to be a world class MMO, with the most advanced social features found in any MMO to date – so while we were prototyping the game on HeroEngine, we were simultaneously developing our own client, server, and messaging layer that were specifically designed with ESO in mind. Think of HeroEngine as a whiteboard for us – a great tool to get some ideas in the game and start looking at them while the production engine was in development

As I read the OP to be: "TESO shouldn't use the hero engine because I don't like it", the thread should have stopped here.

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6908

5/09/13 2:04:27 PM#56


Originally posted by nakuma

I had training in Hero's Engine through Simutronics back at the end of 2009. and other than the collaboration tools, the rest of the engine is total crap specifically with the absolutely outdated rendering engine they use. I eventually in 2012 tried it again the performance was absolutely wretched. Why on earth any development studio worth its guff would even contemplate using such an archaic, outdated Engine is beyond me.

Rendering engine is the least important part of the engine...are you sure you have any sufficient developer/coder experience?

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1918

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  5/09/13 3:00:24 PM#57
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

And so you respond with a trailer video that isn't even actual gameplay?  Drawing 1000 characters at once for a trailer when you don't have to render it in real time is pretty easy to do.  What you sacrifice is not being able to render it in real time--i.e., not being able to implement it in real gameplay.

The game can have 1000vs1000. Otherwise it wouldn't say it could... I mean like what? Really going to sit their and deny it when it freaking lists it as one of it's main features? Sorry that I found a trailer instead of other people playing the game. Jeeze, way to be nitpicky people.

Did you even read the message that you replied to with that video?  Having a huge battle with 1000 players on each side is pretty trivial to do if they're so spread out that the server only has to tell you about a few other players at a time.  The proper question is not how many players per side on a server, but how many players that are near enough that the game has to keep you updated on what they're doing in real time.  And color me skeptical that that's anywhere remotely near 2000.

And did you not read what I already stated? It's not spread out. Please don't do the "did you even read.." thing when you yourself failed to read. Thank you.

Smile

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13314

5/09/13 4:28:38 PM#58
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

And so you respond with a trailer video that isn't even actual gameplay?  Drawing 1000 characters at once for a trailer when you don't have to render it in real time is pretty easy to do.  What you sacrifice is not being able to render it in real time--i.e., not being able to implement it in real gameplay.

The game can have 1000vs1000. Otherwise it wouldn't say it could... I mean like what? Really going to sit their and deny it when it freaking lists it as one of it's main features? Sorry that I found a trailer instead of other people playing the game. Jeeze, way to be nitpicky people.

Did you even read the message that you replied to with that video?  Having a huge battle with 1000 players on each side is pretty trivial to do if they're so spread out that the server only has to tell you about a few other players at a time.  The proper question is not how many players per side on a server, but how many players that are near enough that the game has to keep you updated on what they're doing in real time.  And color me skeptical that that's anywhere remotely near 2000.

And did you not read what I already stated? It's not spread out. Please don't do the "did you even read.." thing when you yourself failed to read. Thank you.

Well then, let's see a gameplay video that actually shows several hundred players on the screen at once moving around in real time without any obvious compromises.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1918

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  5/09/13 5:40:11 PM#59
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5llG4cyYQg

That's a video of it if you're curious. They are not spread out at all. And nothing is sacrificed. At least nothing I noticed when I played the game.

And so you respond with a trailer video that isn't even actual gameplay?  Drawing 1000 characters at once for a trailer when you don't have to render it in real time is pretty easy to do.  What you sacrifice is not being able to render it in real time--i.e., not being able to implement it in real gameplay.

The game can have 1000vs1000. Otherwise it wouldn't say it could... I mean like what? Really going to sit their and deny it when it freaking lists it as one of it's main features? Sorry that I found a trailer instead of other people playing the game. Jeeze, way to be nitpicky people.

Did you even read the message that you replied to with that video?  Having a huge battle with 1000 players on each side is pretty trivial to do if they're so spread out that the server only has to tell you about a few other players at a time.  The proper question is not how many players per side on a server, but how many players that are near enough that the game has to keep you updated on what they're doing in real time.  And color me skeptical that that's anywhere remotely near 2000.

And did you not read what I already stated? It's not spread out. Please don't do the "did you even read.." thing when you yourself failed to read. Thank you.

Well then, let's see a gameplay video that actually shows several hundred players on the screen at once moving around in real time without any obvious compromises.

Go find a video yourself. I'm not your errand boy. I already stated that's a feature it has. A main feature that the game clearly states. You can choose to believe whatever you like though. I'm not going to try to change your mind. 

Smile

  DocBrody

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1434

5/09/13 6:08:45 PM#60

The lighting / shading capablities appear to be quite basic.

Don't know why but all Hero Games have a certain cartoony stylized look. Never seen anything realistic from that engine, there must be a reason for that. I really don't like the stylized plastic look of SWTOR.

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