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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Should MMOs let you have the ability to solo raids?

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123 posts found
  TheLizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10959

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/09/13 11:26:30 AM#41


Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Saryk No, raid content were made for large groups or it would be called solo content.
This is what I think. I have no issues with creating high level content for single players or small groups, but they aren't raids.  
Putting aside the specific encounters and rewards themselves and just talking about the story and lore which I know most raiders just click though anyway wouldn't it make sense to give solo, small group players the ability to see the story unfold to it's conclusion as well?  I know most of the EQ2 expansions if you don't raid the story just kind of ends for you at the front door of the first raid.

One could make a case that if a solo person can defeat a end boss dragon why should it take a raid of people to do the same and I understand that.  I always thought there was a great opportunity here for parallel progression paths though the zones.  Imagine you zone into a secret side entrance of a raid zone solo or in a small group and your mission is to "assist" a NPC raid party fighting the main bosses though secondary objectives?  You still see the story unfold but your viewing it from a different perspective.




I don't have any particular issue against making raid content accessible to players, even solo players. I wouldn't call it raid content though. It's whatever Rift calls their high end solo and duo content.

Sounds like a lot of work to implement. The encounters would be different depending on whether the player is a tank, healer or dps, not to mention differences in the classes or skill sets of the players' characters. Developers aren't even that keen on writing leveling content for players based on class or role, which is a shame. I don't see them tuning raids or rewriting portions of raids for solo players, regardless of how much fun that stuff would be. Jerks.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Four0Six

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1184

5/09/13 11:28:38 AM#42

If you want to play "solo" play a single player game.

This attitude of "inclusion" for EVERYBODY, and wanting to cater to "solo players" is the root cause of the dissorder of the MMORPG market.

massive MULTIplayer online, mMo.

My 2 pennies

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1695

5/09/13 11:29:21 AM#43
Originally posted by Wakygreek

The short answer: NO.

 

Reason: It goes against the entire point of what the raid was built for. When you make a raid into a one person event, it is now a solo dungeon. I suppose you could make solo raids but then what would the point be of making an MMO, you might as well take away the multiplayer aspect completely seeing as the entire game is already soloable (since you brought up WOW).

But the whole game isn't soloable is it?  I don't know about WoW but in EQ2 if you are working on a major story line from a expansion most of the time that will lead you from solo content to small group content to raid content.  The only way to see the story to it's conclusion is to complete all the raids.  It's like giving you a book and tearing out the last 50 pages and telling you the only way to get the rest of it is if you get a group of 24 people together first.

And the really crazy part is that most raiders don't even consider lore and story to be part of the game.  They spend more time looking at loot drops than paying attention to the story components of the zone.  The people who do care are often the ones that don't have the fortitude for lack of a better word for stomaching what raiding entails. 

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

5/09/13 11:31:22 AM#44
As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what they are into? Then have at it.
  Four0Six

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1184

5/09/13 11:37:50 AM#45
Originally posted by birdycephon
As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what theybare into? Then have at it.

Not good logic, here is why.:

There are many different kinds of games, for many different kinds of people to play.

On a more broad spectrum, the "right" one has is the pursuit of happiness, or in this case fun. The "fun" isnt the right, since it is subjective. Meaning that the player has the "right to try a game and see if it is fun", but not to change the mechaincs so they find it fun. Again, there are many many many kinds of games to play not just MMOs.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4960

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/13 11:41:55 AM#46

Why not just have the dungeon/castle/zone... whatever is being raided be like they are in EQ.

You just go in there, not instanced, with as many people as you like.  You can try to solo it, or bring a hundred people+ if you want.  You just have content and nothing forced raid or group or solo.  Yes at specific levels content is tuned for a particular size group but there is nothing stopping a solo from trying it.

edit - actually instanced or not, doesn't make a difference.  Just make them zone mirrors, same thing. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SavageHorizon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1608

5/09/13 11:42:10 AM#47
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Savage
Yeah but vg doesn't have pvp

Play DF then, thing is their are games out there that have what people claim they want, don't moan about it because you or they chose to play games like GW2 or NW.

You don't want instances but you want PVP, why are you not playing DFUW?

This is not a good argument. I would be playing Vanguard if it had a PvP server. The reason it's not a good argument is simply the fact that they are two different games. Besides the lack of instances, they don't have a ton in common. I love the races and classes in Vanguard. I don't like the races and new classes in DF. I like the targeting in Vanguard... I don't like running around wildly swing a sword like in DF. 

 

That's like saying a that a persons who likes bananas should just eat plantains cause they are somewhat similar. 

For one, who is arguing lol.

Let's go back to how the little pow-wow between me and you started lol.

You mentioned instances, i then reply that Vanguard would be the game to play, right? Once i mentioned that you then replied by saying that Vanguard has no PVP which is right.

I then replied that if that is the case DF has no instances and it has PVP, right?

You have just replied with the above that you don't like DF and you like Vanguard races, classes and Vanguards duel targeting system.

That's fair enough no problems there.

Now you saying about the bananas is irrelevant because i'm going on the info you are telling me, perhaps making yourself clear about what type of PVP you like would of help the pow-wow progress.

Oh and you do know the difference between arguing and debating, right?

 

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  TheLizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10959

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/09/13 11:52:42 AM#48


Originally posted by Four0Six

Originally posted by birdycephon As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what theybare into? Then have at it.
Not good logic, here is why.:

There are many different kinds of games, for many different kinds of people to play.

On a more broad spectrum, the "right" one has is the pursuit of happiness, or in this case fun. The "fun" isnt the right, since it is subjective. Meaning that the player has the "right to try a game and see if it is fun", but not to change the mechaincs so they find it fun. Again, there are many many many kinds of games to play not just MMOs.




If a developer wants to attract and retain more players, and this is a way to do it, then the right thing to do is to implement content that gives solo players access to raid content, so long as doing so doesn't interfere or conflict with their other goals for a game.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

5/09/13 11:53:00 AM#49
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by birdycephon
As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what theybare into? Then have at it.

Not good logic, here is why.:

There are many different kinds of games, for many different kinds of people to play.

On a more broad spectrum, the "right" one has is the pursuit of happiness, or in this case fun. The "fun" isnt the right, since it is subjective. Meaning that the player has the "right to try a game and see if it is fun", but not to change the mechaincs so they find it fun. Again, there are many many many kinds of games to play not just MMOs.

 

On the contrary, if a company wants to yield the maximum proffit, they would not ailienate a part of their potential playerbase like that.
  Wakygreek

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 1244

Reason is a necessity

5/09/13 12:09:01 PM#50
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by Wakygreek

The short answer: NO.

 

Reason: It goes against the entire point of what the raid was built for. When you make a raid into a one person event, it is now a solo dungeon. I suppose you could make solo raids but then what would the point be of making an MMO, you might as well take away the multiplayer aspect completely seeing as the entire game is already soloable (since you brought up WOW).

But the whole game isn't soloable is it?  I don't know about WoW but in EQ2 if you are working on a major story line from a expansion most of the time that will lead you from solo content to small group content to raid content.  The only way to see the story to it's conclusion is to complete all the raids.  It's like giving you a book and tearing out the last 50 pages and telling you the only way to get the rest of it is if you get a group of 24 people together first.

And the really crazy part is that most raiders don't even consider lore and story to be part of the game.  They spend more time looking at loot drops than paying attention to the story components of the zone.  The people who do care are often the ones that don't have the fortitude for lack of a better word for stomaching what raiding entails. 

Well WoW did not used to be solable, in fact most of the time you needed groups for even normal dungeons and even then you needed to be smart about it. Nowadays twinks make short work of dungeons to the point where they could solo them easily. I don't know if WOW raids are solable yet, I think the older ones you can do with like 2 - 3 people because of the level/gear difference between expansions. But I always felt that dungeons and raids were tools to bring people together, by making them solable it further destroys the community.

  Four0Six

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1184

5/09/13 12:12:47 PM#51
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by birdycephon
As much as I think soloing raids sounds stupid, I would have to say yes. There are many different kinds of people, and every one of them has every right to have fun in the game. If soloing raids is what theybare into? Then have at it.

Not good logic, here is why.:

There are many different kinds of games, for many different kinds of people to play.

On a more broad spectrum, the "right" one has is the pursuit of happiness, or in this case fun. The "fun" isnt the right, since it is subjective. Meaning that the player has the "right to try a game and see if it is fun", but not to change the mechaincs so they find it fun. Again, there are many many many kinds of games to play not just MMOs.

 

On the contrary, if a company wants to yield the maximum proffit, they would not ailienate a part of their potential playerbase like that.

Look at Blizzard. They have several different types of games, and arguably yeild "maximum" profits. Hell look at EA, they make tons and tons of different types of games and make tons and tons of money. It should be obvious that instead of making 1 game that caters to the broadest spectrum of players isnt the best plan. The best plan is to make several games accross the entire market.

The profit argument you pose is a "straw-man", disigned to stray the argument away from the real argument, which is "I don't want to play with the mechanic of a Raid, and I want it changed to my playstyle.". Again this is an inclusionist argument, and inclusionism always yeilds, a weaker system. Like failing to teach kids sportsmanship while they play sports, so they each get a chance to swing at the ball, or not keeping score during the games.

  Razperil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/04
Posts: 307

Everything has it's time and its place, know yours?

5/09/13 12:26:08 PM#52
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Manolios
a fail post is a fail post...

eh.

 

the answer is obvious perhaps to anyone who has raided for a while but the question is still worth asking.

 

solo content is something that a new player who has difficulty finding groups might think he wants, because he has no understanding on server relationships between players that group content leads to.

 

in the end, MMOs can't provide the solo quality of content that single-player games can...so obviously the MMOs should stick to their forte points: group and large-scale group content.

 

 I love vanilla, I love coke. but vanilla coke is revoltingly bad. similarly, MMOs can't be 'mmo version of single-player games' ... but with single player gameplay. There is no such thing. Ideologically it makes no sense. If the MMO part is an afterthought in an MMO, you're going to have a problem. A big one. At the end of first month. When the storyline is finished.

MMO's  can't be single player games? Says who, you? I think you and so many have lost  the concept of how MMO's have become over the years. With companies like Blizzard dubbing down their games so that SOLO is possible, you only have them to blame for it. MMO's aren't even defined as playing with anyone, they have always been playing possibly with others. That was never defined as you claim to think so. The only definition the MMO part has is that there are others playing, that's it..

I've played tons of MMO's solo. It is more fun? To me it is. I don't have to listen to kids like you complain or moan about when something goes wrong or because I have a green piece of gear, etc,etc,etc. (And no, I don't play Borecraft, but we all know how gear based that game is and always will be).

As far as the topic goes, raiding has and will always be for more than "one" person. We already know companies tend to make some content more solo friendly eventually, that doesn't mean it takes away from the raiding concept. Kids these days want everything handed to them, it's a wonder why we do not get decent MMO's. Something to ponder while drinking that Vanilla Coke :) (Humor at it's bland best). :)

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4496

5/09/13 12:30:10 PM#53
Yes. Raiding, just like sex, should be a solo activity... same with choirs and orchestras, you should be able to solo them too. 
  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4960

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/13 12:35:36 PM#54

Why not just stop having "formal game designed raids"

Just have content.  If it is hard, give the player the ability to organize a raid and take them out, don't have must have xx players to attempt this.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Reizla

Elite Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 3100

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

5/09/13 12:38:24 PM#55

Lord of the Rings online allows all Book 1 raids to be done solo. IMO that breaks down the gaming experience for me. I've played the game twice (rerolled a warden on the new EU server when it became F2P) and just look at the difference:

The Last Refuge (B5C5) 

Old-school party required

New Free2Play solo game

Honestly, I think raids are meant to be done in a party so that every player has it's own role. It also allows you to learn how other classes play for the next raid you're on...

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  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3987

RIP City of Heroes!

5/09/13 12:41:50 PM#56
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by atticusbc
sorta defeats the point of raids doesn't it? i do like what rift did with easier versions of dungeons though. so i suppose it would be nice if more games offered the option to do less difficult, less rewarding version of raids or dungeons, but i'm not sure that it's imperative.

Well, when it is a crucial element of a storyline...it defeats the whole purpose of doing the story line. Not all MMOs I guess would need this, like Vanguard doesn't have any storyline and I don't think Everquest ever did. But, like WoW...the raids are the biggest element to the finale of the story.

 

However, one is able to do the whole story solo...all the way up to Blizzard's finale.

 

I'd be okay if the whole storyline forced you to group (or raid), but Blizzard did not design the story that way.

 

I personally don't care at all about the items or money...I just wanted to see the end of the story.

 To the idea of soloing a endgame raid I say hell no.  If what you are asking for is a story mode, where all you get is the story but zero other benefits including xp, loot, attunements and achievements, then maybe. As long as it's only story.

Something like what LOTRO did. While I never got into LOTRO...it had story mode dungeons (at least while leveling, never got to endgame). You still got exp, loot...but it was far weaker than what you would get in a group. Find better items out in the world. But, it let you see the actual story and progress the story.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't care however if there was no xp or loot...if the game has a heavy story element to it (like LOTRO and WoW)...I just want to see the story. Don't care about purples or whatever.

 Certainly it is about the xp, loot and such.  You dangle out this idea that you want the "story" ::wink wink:: but in the end your true point is made clear.  it isn't about the story. 

So no solo raid even for story.

/end

 

btw: I hate bullshit artists.

  NL-Rikkert

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 125

Currently playing:Allods Online,Trove (Beta),HOMM3

5/09/13 12:42:23 PM#57

 Should MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online games let you have the ability to solo raids?

 

MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER! What part about that title don't people (both devs and players)  understand anymore??

If you want a fancy story and do everything by yourself go play a damn SP RPG...

 

Just so we are absolutely clear here: NO THEY SHOULDN'T! EVER!

STOOPID
When someone does something so utterly moronic that it kills your brain cells at the very thought of it.

  Agent_Joseph

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 1003

5/09/13 12:48:18 PM#58

solo players should keep with SP games !

 

We got already too many crap in mmo's ; cut scenes,voice acting,companions,solo instancing, personal story but we all have same ,,personal,,story ...

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  Bossalinie

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 635

5/09/13 12:59:23 PM#59
I say yes.why does it matter about how another person our group completes a raid. the point isn't to have fun and be entertained, right? Does your fun disappear based off the gameplay of another individual? I would hope not...
  fantasyfreak112

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 523

5/09/13 1:08:17 PM#60
Most of the games in the past decade mine as well let you solo all the raids because they all center around you having this amazing solo online experience anyways.
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