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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Should MMOs let you have the ability to solo raids?

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123 posts found
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

5/09/13 6:32:45 AM#21

one possibility is doing something similar to the WOW quest,  Battle for the Undercity

http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:The_Battle_For_The_Undercity_%28Alliance%29

 

pair you up w an epic NPC to experience the story  (but your participation is meaningless)

 

personally, I'd rather devs not spend time on "living movies" to tell the story

I dont see how else to tell a Raids story in solo mode

  Dibdabs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2457

5/09/13 7:24:29 AM#22
As a confirmed soloer, I say NO.  The people who like to group should be given a suitable reward for doing so.  It's only fair IMO.
  Vocadi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/04
Posts: 194

5/09/13 8:06:48 AM#23

One of the reasons I quit WoW was because of the quality of end game raiders. The horrific, better than everyone attitude was a real turn off. If I had the choice to play those end game raids solo, I would not. Coming from Vanilla WoW and experiencing raids as a group with pugs and or guild members, I know how rewarding a successful raid encounter could be when everyone involved worked together fluidly.  Being able to run through an encounter that took a group weeks of practice to complete, would cheapen the experience to me.

If I want to play something solo, I don't look to the MMO genre to achieve it.

 

  thecapitaine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 394

5/09/13 8:15:04 AM#24

TLDR;  My heresy is believing that solo raids are a good thing, if given a separate progression tier and done without otherwise diminishing the quality of traditional raids.  Most of the arguments against this are based on ideological rather than practical reasons and reflect long-held beliefs that the current market just doesn't seem to bear out.

 

I'm going to go well against the grain here and suggest that, yes, MMOs should allow some raids to be soloed.  I will even tread into still more heretical territory and suggest that these solo raids (I prefer Rift's term, Chronicles) should be given cool rewards for people who can overcome them.  This comes with a couple caveats, of course.  The dev has to have the resources to do it properly, so that raids and chronicles both get the attention they need going forward.  Since the gear-treadmill is almost always a part of the equation in a heavy raid-instanced endgame, a new solo tier of gear needs to come about that should exist for progression along solo lines without diminishing the rewards gained from progressing through raids.

 

Now, there have been tons of posts made here and elsewhere balking at this notion and clearly I'm in the minority here but from what I've seen most of the counter-arguments come from a place of ideology rather than practicality.  Ideology says that group content is inherently more challenging than solo content, to which I argue that most of the challenge in the end comes down to execution and coordination among a group of skillful players.  There's no inherent reason why those same 10 players couldn't each be equally challenged in a solo instance requiring them to learn, adapt, and execute at their highest levels. 

 

Some may say that MMOs are a genre designed around grouping.  A fair point and my own preference is always to group up to get through content and socialize.  However, the genre has changed to reflect a new sensibility.  There isn't a triple A MMO worth its salt today where a player can't see most of the games content or engage in most of the games systems as a solo player from start to finish.  In fact, Raids are most often the only piece of content unavailable to them.  Some may feel that this is a misstep or an aberration, much like some people feel rock should never have replaced jazz or that 20th century classical music pales compared to true classics.  Some may wish to tilt at that particular windmill and that's fine but I believe some dev should be asking why the playstyle that gets so many people to enjoy their game through 50+ levels essentially becomes immediately redundant once cap is reached.

 

There's an ideology that says that raid gear should be the best gear and soloers should have no part of it.  Again, a fair point but one that needs refinement.  The point of raid rewards is (beyond the feeling of achievement) the status it confers and the notion that acquiring it lets players move farther still towards the next set of progressive challenges.  Whether the gear treadmill itself needs to exist is a separate concern.  There's a deep feeling here that if solo players could get raid caliber gear for soloing that it would disrupt raiding and cheapen their achievements.  So, fine.  Implement a separate tier just for soloing that gives soloists some progression, that gives them a status symbol to chase after, and the tools necessary to go for their next step in progression.  Done right, both camps get what they want and the games players have even more to look forward to at endgame.

 

As I said at the start, most of the arguments given against allowing for chronicles/solo raids come from an ideological place rather than one rooted in how people are actually playing the game.  Inertia is very much on the side of keeping things the way they are now but I'm convinced that the company that can pull it off well will have everyone wondering why nobody else dared to do it before.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12267

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

5/09/13 8:20:16 AM#25
Originally posted by thecapitaine

 

As I said at the start, most of the arguments given against allowing for chronicles/solo raids come from an ideological place rather than one rooted in how people are actually playing the game. 

IMO, that's the most important statement in this thread.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/09/13 9:34:06 AM#26

If they happen to be soloable after outgearing them, go for it.

But don't waste time specifically making them soloable, because that's time you could spend on features everyone plays, instead of only a tiny handful of players.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4806

5/09/13 9:36:12 AM#27

All you have to do is look at solo friendly mmos to know why solo friendly raids are bad for any game. The multiplayer aspect of most games now days is little more than, if there's two of you in a group everything is so easy the game is boring.

Do that to a raid and you might as well just take the game off line and sell it as a single player game. There's so little left in these multiplayer games that are actually multiplayer and it looks like solo only players are even going after that. What's next solo pvp ?

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

5/09/13 9:39:24 AM#28
Originally posted by Axehilt

If they happen to be soloable after outgearing them, go for it.

But don't waste time specifically making them soloable, because that's time you could spend on features everyone plays, instead of only a tiny handful of players.

agree

some games have solo versions of heroic dungeons  (like EQ2)

but i dont see the need to spend dev time on a solo version of a raid

 

especially when the raid story serves no purpose after you have done it once

 

  User Deleted
5/09/13 9:50:24 AM#29
No, raid content were made for large groups or it would be called solo content.
  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1883

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

5/09/13 9:53:20 AM#30
Originally posted by TheScavenger

I'll talk about WoW for this, since its the longest played MMO I've been a part of and only one I had actual fun with at end game.

 

In WoW, only two classes can solo raid (or did when I played, that being, Death Knights and Paladins)...these two were (when i played) regarded as the best. However, they can only solo old raids that don't matter anymore. It is a fun challenge, but not much else.

 

But when WOTLK came out...I couldn't experience the Lich King for myself. Which was really disappointing after playing the Warcraft 3 and expansion. I had to go on Youtube and watch videos of it, which isn't nearly the same.

 

Why not let one do raids, but get much weaker items than one who would do the same raid in a group? This way, everyone can enjoy the content and not just the very small population that raided in WoW. This would add lots of content in the game for a much larger group of people. This would be true for any MMO that has raiding. The raiders still get their uber items and achievements, soloers get suitable items, but more importantly, get to actually see the story AND the content.

 

Then everyone wins and experiences the whole game.

actually in WoW that's quite possible, after some time :)

 

of corz no class can do the actual raid content solo, but basically every class can do the older raids solo by now (talkig of WoW).

of cors it's alot easier with selfhealing clasees, but i dont think there is actually any class without a heal by now hehe.

 

 

 

anyway, as said before, doubt this will ever ber possible for actual raid content. or it wouldn't be raid content but... solo content that you can do in groups too

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/09/13 9:57:05 AM#31


Originally posted by Saryk
No, raid content were made for large groups or it would be called solo content.


This is what I think. I have no issues with creating high level content for single players or small groups, but they aren't raids.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  User Deleted
5/09/13 9:57:10 AM#32
I think all MMOs should be single player games that become exponentially easier if played in a group.  And by group, you must engage in party chat every 5 minutes or you are automatically booted from the group.  We'll break this habit of people wanting to play a single player game online under the guise of social interaction.  They will soon all return to their set-top games where only the silence of NPCs await them.
  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1612

5/09/13 10:02:50 AM#33
Originally posted by Robokapp

 anyone who soloed a BC raid at level 85+ did not have anywhere near the experience doing the raid at level 70 provided.

On the other hand; I used to play WOW for a short while when I want easy/casual fun when EVE is my main MMO.

Like I said, I sub for 1-2 months till I go back to EVE 'fulltime' and I cannot join a guild as they require me to devote all my free time to their progression and they want me to be in there raiding like 6x/week.

I have a family + a fulltime job + other hobbies too.

Taking that into mind it is fun to -finally- go 1 on 1 vs that epic Onyxia, Blackwing, Naxx, BC bosses, WOTLK, although being lvl 85-90, because otherwise I would never see that content anyway. If this would be made impossible by Blizzard it would be 'too bad, how sad, never mind' because I will never join a wow raid guild.

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1162

5/09/13 10:04:04 AM#34

If anything raids need to be made alot harder without the bosses haveing all these preset patterns, totally randomized so its a real test of skill since you never know whats coming, compared to say wow and rift, where you always know whats coming and in the case of rift, it even shows you on the ground where to step to avoid it. least in instances not sure about raids.

Mmorpg's as it is are already far FAR too soloable, if anything the soloability needs to be drastically reduced, they also need to have raid gear that is actually worth getting, wow, rift, the other clones all the raid gear serves 0 use, I mean other than more raidz what the hell use is it? Can't use it in pvp cuz they stupidly seperate the 2 for the very small pvp playerbase. Insted of making raid gear best gear for pvp, Like it should be. Pvpers will whine but really who cares about them when in most pve mmo's they are a tiny minority.

MMo devs need to get back making worlds and not these glorified single player games till lv cap. Pretty much every mmo thats come out you can hit cap in a few days, it never was like that till wow, in some games it'd take a month or so to hit level cap, which IMO is how it should be. Stupid worthless cattle called casuals have ruined mmo's into the current cesspool of shit they are currently.

Since wow, pretty much every single mmo that has come out, has basacally felt like the exact same garbage in a diffrent wrapper. With very little if anything that makes it diffrent from the rest of the clones. Personally, I think wanting more soloability in a genre that is dominated by solo games when its supposed to be a group thing is a bad idea.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  SupportPlayerMM

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 335

5/09/13 10:04:16 AM#35
no... if you want to solo a raid... player a singleplayer game with hard boss fights.
  WelshyJT

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/18/13
Posts: 26

5/09/13 10:04:53 AM#36
Absolute Nonsense.
  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1614

5/09/13 10:06:08 AM#37
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Saryk
No, raid content were made for large groups or it would be called solo content.



This is what I think. I have no issues with creating high level content for single players or small groups, but they aren't raids.

 

Putting aside the specific encounters and rewards themselves and just talking about the story and lore which I know most raiders just click though anyway wouldn't it make sense to give solo, small group players the ability to see the story unfold to it's conclusion as well?  I know most of the EQ2 expansions if you don't raid the story just kind of ends for you at the front door of the first raid.

One could make a case that if a solo person can defeat a end boss dragon why should it take a raid of people to do the same and I understand that.  I always thought there was a great opportunity here for parallel progression paths though the zones.  Imagine you zone into a secret side entrance of a raid zone solo or in a small group and your mission is to "assist" a NPC raid party fighting the main bosses though secondary objectives?  You still see the story unfold but your viewing it from a different perspective.

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1366

5/09/13 10:07:40 AM#38
Originally posted by TheScavenger

I'll talk about WoW for this, since its the longest played MMO I've been a part of and only one I had actual fun with at end game.

 

In WoW, only two classes can solo raid (or did when I played, that being, Death Knights and Paladins)...these two were (when i played) regarded as the best. However, they can only solo old raids that don't matter anymore. It is a fun challenge, but not much else.

 

But when WOTLK came out...I couldn't experience the Lich King for myself. Which was really disappointing after playing the Warcraft 3 and expansion. I had to go on Youtube and watch videos of it, which isn't nearly the same.

 

Why not let one do raids, but get much weaker items than one who would do the same raid in a group? This way, everyone can enjoy the content and not just the very small population that raided in WoW. This would add lots of content in the game for a much larger group of people. This would be true for any MMO that has raiding. The raiders still get their uber items and achievements, soloers get suitable items, but more importantly, get to actually see the story AND the content.

 

Then everyone wins and experiences the whole game.

Wasn't that the point of the Raid finder?

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1366

5/09/13 10:16:51 AM#39
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Savage
Yeah but vg doesn't have pvp

Play DF then, thing is their are games out there that have what people claim they want, don't moan about it because you or they chose to play games like GW2 or NW.

You don't want instances but you want PVP, why are you not playing DFUW?

This is not a good argument. I would be playing Vanguard if it had a PvP server. The reason it's not a good argument is simply the fact that they are two different games. Besides the lack of instances, they don't have a ton in common. I love the races and classes in Vanguard. I don't like the races and new classes in DF. I like the targeting in Vanguard... I don't like running around wildly swing a sword like in DF. 

 

That's like saying a that a persons who likes bananas should just eat plantains cause they are somewhat similar. 

  Wakygreek

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 1244

Reason is a necessity

5/09/13 10:25:33 AM#40

The short answer: NO.

 

Reason: It goes against the entire point of what the raid was built for. When you make a raid into a one person event, it is now a solo dungeon. I suppose you could make solo raids but then what would the point be of making an MMO, you might as well take away the multiplayer aspect completely seeing as the entire game is already soloable (since you brought up WOW).

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