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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Explain this idea of "Immersion" to me.

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209 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/05/13 6:18:21 PM#181
Originally posted by sunshadow21

Transportation and teleport systems in general seem to be one of the biggest problems when it comes to this matter of immersion. You have to force people to actually be a part of the world, but just like in the real world, people will have plenty of reasons to develop faster travel methods than walking, so it's a balancing act of how you implement those methods so that they are not required and enhance the world rather than becoming a way to largely ignore the world.

People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

  Destai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 487

5/05/13 6:41:47 PM#182

Immersion has several components for me. 

1. The game needs to feel alive, first and foremost. I love seeing boats coming and going, reading lore drops, dynamic events, texts explaining the world around me. 

2. The user interface should only reflect the feel of the game and my character. Nothing in the user interface should pull me into a store, save that for the log in screen or the website.

3. Sounds are important. The chattering of NPCs, the creaking of a boat, the sound of my feet hitting the ground - that's all immersive.

4. Combat should have a tactile feel to it. If i'm playing melee, I want to be aware of how I'm hitting somebody, not just staring at a bar. 

5. Crafting should be meaningful and give me a reason to explore the game. 

6. External humor should be kept to a minimum, ie pop culture references. If I want pop culture references, I'll go watch Family Guy. 

Immersion is the idea that game is an escape, another world to explore. The systems of the game should support this illusion and give you something special to remember.

Current MMOs: Wildstar, Guild Wars 2, the Secret World, World of Warcraft

Past Loves: Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest

  sunshadow21

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

5/05/13 7:09:10 PM#183
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunshadow21

Transportation and teleport systems in general seem to be one of the biggest problems when it comes to this matter of immersion. You have to force people to actually be a part of the world, but just like in the real world, people will have plenty of reasons to develop faster travel methods than walking, so it's a balancing act of how you implement those methods so that they are not required and enhance the world rather than becoming a way to largely ignore the world.

People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

And the challenge here is making sure that implementing such systems does not detract from the immersion aspect of the game. Too often in MMOs today, I see a lot of systems slapped in without regard to how they effect the rest of the gameplay or world immersion and they end up detracting from the game as a whole despite their usefulness. The early MMOs did a lot better job creating an entire game that, while not perfect, worked reasonably well together; heck, that's the cornerstone of how WOW succeeded. Most games since WOW have forgotten and/or abandoned that big picture kind of thinking and have suffered for it. Not every system is going to enhance the game and be the major selling point, but at no point should any individual system cause harm to the overall game, either. That, to me, is the point of immersion; how well do the mechanics and the world/lore aspects match each other? The more they match up, the better the experience is as a whole regardless of the quality of the individual components.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/05/13 7:16:22 PM#184
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunshadow21

Transportation and teleport systems in general seem to be one of the biggest problems when it comes to this matter of immersion. You have to force people to actually be a part of the world, but just like in the real world, people will have plenty of reasons to develop faster travel methods than walking, so it's a balancing act of how you implement those methods so that they are not required and enhance the world rather than becoming a way to largely ignore the world.

People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

And the challenge here is making sure that implementing such systems does not detract from the immersion aspect of the game. Too often in MMOs today, I see a lot of systems slapped in without regard to how they effect the rest of the gameplay or world immersion and they end up detracting from the game as a whole despite their usefulness. The early MMOs did a lot better job creating an entire game that, while not perfect, worked reasonably well together; heck, that's the cornerstone of how WOW succeeded. Most games since WOW have forgotten and/or abandoned that big picture kind of thinking and have suffered for it. Not every system is going to enhance the game and be the major selling point, but at no point should any individual system cause harm to the overall game, either. That, to me, is the point of immersion; how well do the mechanics and the world/lore aspects match each other? The more they match up, the better the experience is as a whole regardless of the quality of the individual components.

I think many devs are just ignoring the challenge because few seems to mind.

Look at LFD. Certainly games need that to make it convenient (just look at how popular it is). It is not hard to conjure up some magical mumbo jumbo so that a LFD system is more consistent with the lore and context of the game world (oh .. this magical orb will show you other adventurers having the same goals, and will magically teleport you to the to fulfill your destiny!).

However, no one bothers to even try. That tells you something. Immersion is just not that important if it is in conflict with convenience or other aspects of fun.

  sunshadow21

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

5/05/13 10:06:45 PM#185
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I think many devs are just ignoring the challenge because few seems to mind.

Look at LFD. Certainly games need that to make it convenient (just look at how popular it is). It is not hard to conjure up some magical mumbo jumbo so that a LFD system is more consistent with the lore and context of the game world (oh .. this magical orb will show you other adventurers having the same goals, and will magically teleport you to the to fulfill your destiny!).

However, no one bothers to even try. That tells you something. Immersion is just not that important if it is in conflict with convenience or other aspects of fun.

It actually is, and that is why most people really don't like most of the games that are currently out for more than a month. Few seem to mind because they can always just move on to the next big thing, but for the state of the genre as a whole, it's not a good state of affairs when the whole idea was to have long term worlds and communities and we're reduced to glorified single player games that people pick up and discard without even a thought. I'm sure some people like it that way, but it really does hurt MMOs as a whole because it means that the original market and concept has been all but forgotten in the name of money and convenience.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/06/13 12:40:18 AM#186
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I think many devs are just ignoring the challenge because few seems to mind.

Look at LFD. Certainly games need that to make it convenient (just look at how popular it is). It is not hard to conjure up some magical mumbo jumbo so that a LFD system is more consistent with the lore and context of the game world (oh .. this magical orb will show you other adventurers having the same goals, and will magically teleport you to the to fulfill your destiny!).

However, no one bothers to even try. That tells you something. Immersion is just not that important if it is in conflict with convenience or other aspects of fun.

It actually is, and that is why most people really don't like most of the games that are currently out for more than a month. Few seem to mind because they can always just move on to the next big thing, but for the state of the genre as a whole, it's not a good state of affairs when the whole idea was to have long term worlds and communities and we're reduced to glorified single player games that people pick up and discard without even a thought. I'm sure some people like it that way, but it really does hurt MMOs as a whole because it means that the original market and concept has been all but forgotten in the name of money and convenience.

Solution is simple. Change the idea. The long term world thing is an old idea. We can use some innovation.

Glorified Sp games are great .. if they are glorified enough.

  sunshadow21

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

5/06/13 1:45:54 AM#187
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I think many devs are just ignoring the challenge because few seems to mind.

Look at LFD. Certainly games need that to make it convenient (just look at how popular it is). It is not hard to conjure up some magical mumbo jumbo so that a LFD system is more consistent with the lore and context of the game world (oh .. this magical orb will show you other adventurers having the same goals, and will magically teleport you to the to fulfill your destiny!).

However, no one bothers to even try. That tells you something. Immersion is just not that important if it is in conflict with convenience or other aspects of fun.

It actually is, and that is why most people really don't like most of the games that are currently out for more than a month. Few seem to mind because they can always just move on to the next big thing, but for the state of the genre as a whole, it's not a good state of affairs when the whole idea was to have long term worlds and communities and we're reduced to glorified single player games that people pick up and discard without even a thought. I'm sure some people like it that way, but it really does hurt MMOs as a whole because it means that the original market and concept has been all but forgotten in the name of money and convenience.

Solution is simple. Change the idea. The long term world thing is an old idea. We can use some innovation.

Glorified Sp games are great .. if they are glorified enough.

Aside from the fact that your solution completely misses the point of why such games were developed in the first place, it obviously is what the game publishers have already done. Now we just need someone, not everyone, but at least someone, to get back to the original idea that still has a place in the market. Contrary to what you clearly think, implementations of both ideas can be available at the same time without threatening each other.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/06/13 2:57:20 PM#188
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Solution is simple. Change the idea. The long term world thing is an old idea. We can use some innovation.

Glorified Sp games are great .. if they are glorified enough.

Aside from the fact that your solution completely misses the point of why such games were developed in the first place, it obviously is what the game publishers have already done. Now we just need someone, not everyone, but at least someone, to get back to the original idea that still has a place in the market. Contrary to what you clearly think, implementations of both ideas can be available at the same time without threatening each other.

The point of why such games were developed in the first place is not important .. if the point is not helping games to fulfill their function as entertainment products.

Devs are already doing what i suggested because of market pressure, because of supply & demand.

"Now we just need someone ..." .. who are "we"? If the "market" needs that, the invisible hand will have it done. If you are talking about yourself .. well .. no one owes you a game you like.

 

  PAL-18

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 724

5/06/13 3:09:14 PM#189
Originally posted by nariusseldon

People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
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  sunshadow21

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

5/06/13 11:15:31 PM#190
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Solution is simple. Change the idea. The long term world thing is an old idea. We can use some innovation.

Glorified Sp games are great .. if they are glorified enough.

Aside from the fact that your solution completely misses the point of why such games were developed in the first place, it obviously is what the game publishers have already done. Now we just need someone, not everyone, but at least someone, to get back to the original idea that still has a place in the market. Contrary to what you clearly think, implementations of both ideas can be available at the same time without threatening each other.

The point of why such games were developed in the first place is not important .. if the point is not helping games to fulfill their function as entertainment products.

Devs are already doing what i suggested because of market pressure, because of supply & demand.

"Now we just need someone ..." .. who are "we"? If the "market" needs that, the invisible hand will have it done. If you are talking about yourself .. well .. no one owes you a game you like.

 

You forget that for the market they were originally developed, they were entertainment, and the new direction has tried to replace the old direction when in reality they can both can, and need to, coexist if the genre as as whole is going to maintain it's strength. Every other form of entertainment has niche submarkets, yet MMOs persist on following the "one true way" as if there is no other way that could possibly work despite the evidence that the current way is far from perfect.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/07/13 12:48:45 AM#191
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon

People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

 

Not in a PvE game when all they can do is spam you with guild invite.

It was never fun for me walking the 10000th time from the bank to the tavern.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/07/13 12:50:11 AM#192
Originally posted by sunshadow21
 

You forget that for the market they were originally developed, they were entertainment, and the new direction has tried to replace the old direction when in reality they can both can, and need to, coexist if the genre as as whole is going to maintain it's strength. Every other form of entertainment has niche submarkets, yet MMOs persist on following the "one true way" as if there is no other way that could possibly work despite the evidence that the current way is far from perfect.

They were entertainment .. just not very successful ones until they become better games.

Oh, i don't doubt there is a niche market for it .. there is a niche market for anything. Just look at the market .. WOT is very different from WOW, very different from NWO, very different from LoL. There is no one true way.

 

  rommello

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 204

hallo ~_~

5/07/13 12:50:47 AM#193
immersion? wat the hell is immersion? do i give a dam or am i having any fun is the question

hallo ~_~

  geldonyetich

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1377

5/07/13 12:51:53 AM#194
If you don't understand immersion, you're probably overthinking it.  Feeling "immersed" in an MMORPG is identical in nature to feeling fished in by a good book.  It captivates your imagination and makes you feel like you're "there" without too many "immersion-breaking" flaws detracting from the expereince.  Yes, there probably does not exist an MMORPG (or book) that is completely immersive, but does being more immersive than usual enhance the enjoyment of the game?  You better believe it does, and the opposite is also true for games with very poor immersion.
  Punk999

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/04
Posts: 878

5/07/13 12:59:32 AM#195

Immersion to me is just like when i read a good book... it's as if im in that world watching it all unfold.

...atleast till my wife tells me to help clean ;(

"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
^MMORPG.com

  PAL-18

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 724

5/07/13 1:20:29 AM#196
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon

People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

 

Not in a PvE game when all they can do is spam you with guild invite.

It was never fun for me walking the 10000th time from the bank to the tavern.

Well roleplaying games and immersive world,you just need better immersive RP games it seems.

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  casual187

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/12
Posts: 35

5/07/13 1:27:08 AM#197
It's a time in a young girls life when............
  mcrippins

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/07
Posts: 995

5/07/13 1:31:28 AM#198

 

im·merse

[ih-murs]

verb (used with object), im·mersed, im·mers·ing.

1. to plunge into or place under a liquid; dip; sink.

2. to involve deeply; absorb: She is totally immersed in her law practice.

3. to baptize by immersion.

4. to embed; bury.

-------------------------
 
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/07/13 10:56:22 AM#199
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon

People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

 

Not in a PvE game when all they can do is spam you with guild invite.

It was never fun for me walking the 10000th time from the bank to the tavern.

Well roleplaying games and immersive world,you just need better immersive RP games it seems.

 

Or ... i just need those boring bits taken out, so i can focus on killing stuff, or other activities i deem fun.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

5/07/13 11:04:28 AM#200
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon

People often forget immersion needs to balance with fun. Walking the same stretch of land again, and again (back-tracking) is realistic but not fun for most people.

Hence, even OBlivion has fast travel.

I doubt anyone can make walking the 1000th time from the bank to the tavern fun.

I try to imagine your balance with fun when you walk in your funny game alone but you know even walking from the bank to tavern can be fun even 100000 times because there is actually other people around and you never know what they are up to.

 

Not in a PvE game when all they can do is spam you with guild invite.

It was never fun for me walking the 10000th time from the bank to the tavern.

Well roleplaying games and immersive world,you just need better immersive RP games it seems.

 

Or ... i just need those boring bits taken out, so i can focus on killing stuff, or other activities i deem fun.

Too many features and creativity have already been removed from mmorpg's, thats why they are boring now. And you wanting to remove stuff from game others may find fun, is the exact reason mmorpg's suck today.

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