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Neverwinter

Neverwinter 

General Discussion  » Business Model Will Kill This game

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64 posts found
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18985

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

5/05/13 6:42:41 AM#21
With the exception of a few titles, pretty much all MMOs follow the same pattern, start off big for a few months, then a big mass exodus, then stability as a smaller portion of the player base keeps the game going for many years to come.

At the end of the day the payment model doesn't seem to effect this pattern all that much so I'm guessing this is more of a reflection on game design and not on what the payment model is.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5209

5/05/13 6:54:37 AM#22
Originally posted by DeniZg
Originally posted by Phry
All this really highlights is just how 'ephemeral' F2P games really are, they are not meant to last, and it shows. The same however is not true for P2P games, that are designed with longevity in mind, which is why games like WoW and Eve are still going strong and show no signs of disappearing any time soon, which is something that can't really be said about the various F2P games which are popular one minute and then, their yesterdays news. The F2P game market isnt really all that robust, which might be because there are so many games all trying to feed out of the same trough.

Actually, it's quite the opposite of what you've mentioned.

LoL is the most popular F2P, lasting for more than 3 years, highly profitable and is the most played online game in general. Even former P2P games converted to F2P have managed to remain on market and make money (LoTRO, STO, SWTOR etc.). Also, compared to P2P market, F2P market is much more profitable and will contintue to expand, as long as it remains that way.

IMHO, business models don't kill games. It's the games' quality that does so. If some game is high quality product, it will thrive, no matter the business model.

MOBA games arent MMO's and they have very low overheads, ie, no persistent world, and there arent really very many of them, i think LOL and DOTA are the only ones that really have any presence, but even they are at the mercy of any other developer that decides to make another MOBA, but that doesnt matter because games like LOL and DOTA arent designed with longevity in mind either, nor was farmville for that matter

  AG-Vuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/04
Posts: 816

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Oh, I see it's too late to help you.

5/05/13 8:59:19 AM#23
Originally posted by Chrisbox
I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

Not to worry, the rinse cycle is coming to an end. Cryptic/PWI has run out of big name titles to do this with. Short of spending a lot of money on an IP, they'll actually need to get creative and create an actual game to draw interest. Shockiing I know ? The problem with this F2P model is it doesn't lend itself to big front end financial exposure. So what'll happen is that big IP's will just sit and rot for the most part due to franchising costs.

  MadDemon64

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1071

Why is it that fantasy trolls are vulnerable to fire, but internet trolls thrive on flame wars?

5/05/13 10:22:15 AM#24
Originally posted by AG-Vuk
Originally posted by Chrisbox
I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

Not to worry, the rinse cycle is coming to an end. Cryptic/PWI has run out of big name titles to do this with. Short of spending a lot of money on an IP, they'll actually need to get creative and create an actual game to draw interest. Shockiing I know ? The problem with this F2P model is it doesn't lend itself to big front end financial exposure. So what'll happen is that big IP's will just sit and rot for the most part due to franchising costs.

Well seeing as how they have done it in the past and done it very well, we can expect good things from them when they decide to do this

Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

5/05/13 10:33:44 AM#25
Originally posted by Chrisbox
I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

I don't get it... Where do poeple get the idea that subsciption games would last and that people who pay a monthly sub don't expect MORE from the game than those who don't pay on a monthly basis...

Even more, sub games won't last in todays market unless they're really really good and let's face it... Neverwinter is nowhere near that quality to even consider that type of paymodel. The sooner you realise sub model is ancient history, the sooner you'll live a happy life :D

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  Chrisbox

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1499

 
OP  5/05/13 10:57:57 AM#26
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Chrisbox
I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

I don't get it... Where do poeple get the idea that subsciption games would last and that people who pay a monthly sub don't expect MORE from the game than those who don't pay on a monthly basis...

Even more, sub games won't last in todays market unless they're really really good and let's face it... Neverwinter is nowhere near that quality to even consider that type of paymodel. The sooner you realise sub model is ancient history, the sooner you'll live a happy life :D

Because with sub games, if they're doing well they stay sub games and keep delivering content, and if they aren't doing well then they go f2p and you basically know the games being handled terribly.

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

5/05/13 11:40:12 AM#27
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Chrisbox
I already fear for this game...the gameplay so far as been quite enjoyable, but it follows the same exact model every other Perfect world game did and died off.  Its basically rack in f2p cash with a really badly priced zen system, then when the community dies use that money to make another game. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.  Should've launched as a subscription game in my opinion, thats where the commitment comes in from not only the players but the developers.  

I don't get it... Where do poeple get the idea that subsciption games would last and that people who pay a monthly sub don't expect MORE from the game than those who don't pay on a monthly basis...

Even more, sub games won't last in todays market unless they're really really good and let's face it... Neverwinter is nowhere near that quality to even consider that type of paymodel. The sooner you realise sub model is ancient history, the sooner you'll live a happy life :D

Because with sub games, if they're doing well they stay sub games and keep delivering content, and if they aren't doing well then they go f2p and you basically know the games being handled terribly.

Yes, but as I said... To even consider charging people monthly sub and staying sub based game you first need to create a quality game worthy of 15$ a month or else you won't even start properly with game and you'll already have to stop.

I don't see neverwinter being 15$ a month worth game. Lately I see less and less games (or not at all for that matter) which are worth a sub price. Thinking about it right now I can think of only ArcheAge being worth subbing and from the older games there's only a few of them still worth that price.

Sub games also have a problem of rapid content expansions because you pay let's say 60$ for a game which gives you all that starting content, but then they charge you 15$ a month, which in 4 months is 60$ which means you should get alteast content which is near the launch content OR they can give out expansions which are free. Which only EVE does (I'm not sure about RIFT).

So what am I paying the game for then? Server costs? If you can't make a smart server architecture to lessen your costs you should't even be doing mmorpgs in first place. Which is kinda off topic now but I'm hoping you get my point. :)

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  Dogblaster

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

5/05/13 11:42:25 AM#28
Originally posted by azzamasin
Subscription is dead.  Only room for a few subscription games and WoW and Eve have those people.  F2P is the future, which is odd because it ought to of been the past considering every other gaming genre has never had a subscription.  Do not recall ever paying for a subscription while playing Mortal Kombat or Madden NFL.

More crap pls ...

  WhiteLantern

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 2778

5/05/13 11:44:23 AM#29
Originally posted by Codeme
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Don't fool yourself with the idea that "committed players" make a financially successful MMO.

They don't.

 

The average MMORPG player wants to reach level cap in 4 to 6 weeks max, followed by a few weeks of grinding "endgame". Then they're bored, because they've "beaten the game" and it's off to the next MMO...

 

People are playing MMO's like single-player games. Everyone's there for launch, but 2 months later they're all gone again. They've "finished" the game.

 

So the F2P games try to earn the maximum income in their first 2 months. After that it's maintenance mode until the servers close.

this is sad but true.

Actually, most of that post is a sad opinion.

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  BlueTiger33

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/13
Posts: 169

5/05/13 11:46:27 AM#30
Originally posted by azzamasin
Subscription is dead.  Only room for a few subscription games and WoW and Eve have those people.  F2P is the future, which is odd because it ought to of been the past considering every other gaming genre has never had a subscription.  Do not recall ever paying for a subscription while playing Mortal Kombat or Madden NFL.

It's funny you mention EVE. Not a single person I ever heard of actually subs to EVE...they all always use the ingame currency to pay for their "sub."


I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
My Blog

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

5/05/13 11:48:08 AM#31
Originally posted by BlueTiger33
Originally posted by azzamasin
Subscription is dead.  Only room for a few subscription games and WoW and Eve have those people.  F2P is the future, which is odd because it ought to of been the past considering every other gaming genre has never had a subscription.  Do not recall ever paying for a subscription while playing Mortal Kombat or Madden NFL.

It's funny you mention EVE. Not a single person I ever heard of actually subs to EVE...they all always use the ingame currency to pay for their "sub."

And that's the beauty of it... Play the game to play it even more!

Tho, somebody had to buy those PLEX with real money to put it in the auction system for you to buy it with in game currency.

Win/win situation. :P

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  thinktank001

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1842

5/05/13 12:10:02 PM#32
Originally posted by DeniZg

Actually, it's quite the opposite of what you've mentioned.

LoL is the most popular F2P, lasting for more than 3 years, highly profitable and is the most played online game in general. Even former P2P games converted to F2P have managed to remain on market and make money (LoTRO, STO, SWTOR etc.). Also, compared to P2P market, F2P market is much more profitable and will contintue to expand, as long as it remains that way.

IMHO, business models don't kill games. It's the games' quality that does so. If some game is high quality product, it will thrive, no matter the business model.

 

Cash shop (CS) games are of low quality. P2P developers that swap business models know this, and they know that the switch puts their game at the top of the CS pile. 

 

CS games are profitable, but it isn't that profitable on a per title basis.  Publishers know that the largest influx of cash for this business model (and most games) is during the initial launch period, and this leads them to just pump out low quality games at the fastest possible rate.   This allows them to make a little profit from a lot of different titles, and is a good situation for CS consumers, since they will have a lot of different titles to play.  

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

5/05/13 12:59:51 PM#33
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by DeniZg

Actually, it's quite the opposite of what you've mentioned.

LoL is the most popular F2P, lasting for more than 3 years, highly profitable and is the most played online game in general. Even former P2P games converted to F2P have managed to remain on market and make money (LoTRO, STO, SWTOR etc.). Also, compared to P2P market, F2P market is much more profitable and will contintue to expand, as long as it remains that way.

IMHO, business models don't kill games. It's the games' quality that does so. If some game is high quality product, it will thrive, no matter the business model.

 

Cash shop (CS) games are of low quality. P2P developers that swap business models know this, and they know that the switch puts their game at the top of the CS pile. 

 

CS games are profitable, but it isn't that profitable on a per title basis.  Publishers know that the largest influx of cash for this business model (and most games) is during the initial launch period, and this leads them to just pump out low quality games at the fastest possible rate.   This allows them to make a little profit from a lot of different titles, and is a good situation for CS consumers, since they will have a lot of different titles to play.  

Not neceseraly, I kinda hate it that GW are the only games with good pay model and I don't get it why more games don't go that path.

If you're already aiming for F2P with intrusive cash shop, why not making it a B2P with fluff cash shop? I don't know how it works in asia but I think games would get alot more money out of it that way (I have in mind games that are good enough to even consider lasting few years on the market).

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  HorrorScope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 612

5/05/13 1:50:15 PM#34
Originally posted by ragz45

All they need to do is intrudce a TON of costume, fluff, and mount type items to the item store.  And then lower the prices across the board on the rest of the stuff.  League of Legends makes a TON of money, and they don't charge for anything other than skins (read fluff).

The sooner FTP mmo's get this into their heads, the better off the entire ftp genre will be.  Players pay for fluff, players leave if ftp systems are more inconvenience than fun.

Well and their bigger money maker... new characters to buy and use. Oh yah... how can one forget that?

  HorrorScope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 612

5/05/13 1:53:24 PM#35
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Don't fool yourself with the idea that "committed players" make a financially successful MMO.

They don't.

 

The average MMORPG player wants to reach level cap in 4 to 6 weeks max, followed by a few weeks of grinding "endgame". Then they're bored, because they've "beaten the game" and it's off to the next MMO...

 

People are playing MMO's like single-player games. Everyone's there for launch, but 2 months later they're all gone again. They've "finished" the game.

 

So the F2P games try to earn the maximum income in their first 2 months. After that it's maintenance mode until the servers close.

There seems to be a lot of truth to that. So if you fall somewhat into that aren't a tool and see the pattern...

Games like Borderlands 2 are superior, small squad coop, much much better story and how it is delivered, better loots, you are the game, just much better for a small group. I've said it once, I've said it twenty times now... I never needed a mmo, I just need coop RPG's, they can cater so much more to the individual, just not that many of them.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1649

5/05/13 2:04:26 PM#36

Gamers tend to know very little about how games get published, even less about why a game gets published. 

And everyone is an expert on the internet. 

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 883

5/05/13 2:11:24 PM#37
Originally posted by azzamasin
Subscription is dead.  Only room for a few subscription games and WoW and Eve have those people.  F2P is the future, which is odd because it ought to of been the past considering every other gaming genre has never had a subscription.  Do not recall ever paying for a subscription while playing Mortal Kombat or Madden NFL.

Riiiight...

Subscription for mediocere MMOs are dead which sadly is what are what has been released.  GW2 is about the only MMO that was different from the attack of the WoW clones.

If Neverwitner was a B2P or Sub it would have failed miserabely... big time, one of the main reasons people are even playing it is becuase its F2P.

  Drakxii

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 599

5/05/13 2:16:49 PM#38
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Don't fool yourself with the idea that "committed players" make a financially successful MMO.

They don't.

 

The average MMORPG player wants to reach level cap in 4 to 6 weeks max, followed by a few weeks of grinding "endgame". Then they're bored, because they've "beaten the game" and it's off to the next MMO...

 

People are playing MMO's like single-player games. Everyone's there for launch, but 2 months later they're all gone again. They've "finished" the game.

 

So the F2P games try to earn the maximum income in their first 2 months. After that it's maintenance mode until the servers close.

I would say this is true of the current players willing to play this F2P... stuff.  I just wonder how many players there are like me who want an MMO but the current "selection" just dosn't interest us. 

I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  DSBHR

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/04
Posts: 75

You Are Getting Very Sleepy.

5/05/13 2:24:44 PM#39
Originally posted by ragz45

All they need to do is intrudce a TON of costume, fluff, and mount type items to the item store.  And then lower the prices across the board on the rest of the stuff.  League of Legends makes a TON of money, and they don't charge for anything other than skins (read fluff).

The sooner FTP mmo's get this into their heads, the better off the entire ftp genre will be.  Players pay for fluff, players leave if ftp systems are more inconvenience than fun.

This is Truth. It is basically imo the difference between Free to play and pay to win in a F2P game. Should be able to play without incovienience but pay to get kewl skins on items and other fluff items.

  simsalabim77

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 613

5/05/13 2:32:13 PM#40

You should have made the title of this thread, "I Don't Like F2P and Subscription is Better."

Your post could have simply said, "I think F2P sucks, and as a result this game will be shut down." 

 

I guess your title and post has a nicer oversensationalized ring to it, but it's complete bullshit nonetheless. 

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