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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is this video game concept always lacking in MMOs?

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27 posts found
  Dhaenon

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 40

"What came first, the music or the misery?"

 
OP  4/30/13 2:14:49 AM#1

The concept of one person, or a small group versus an entire army! The concept of power. 

 

Force Unleashed, one badass Sith killing his way through a star destroyer in order to confront a Jedi master.

Batman: Arkham Asylum, one superhero fighting his way through a horde of escaped psychotics in order to confront a super villain. 

Mass Effect, a squad of 3 soldiers fighting their way across a planet to confront a gargantuan planet destroying ship-monster.

 

MMOs

World of Warcraft, leveling to godlike power in order to fight a boar who also has godlike power... but only one at a time, or maybe two because 3 or more boars would murder you. 

SWTOR, one badass Sith (and his pocket healer) killing a single criminal (he has a gold star next to his head so that means he is strooooong)... and praying that he doesn't call for any backup. 

 

I was a huge fan of MMOs for 10 years or so, but now I am starting to think they are just horrible. Each new release is worst than the last. 

 

  cybertrucker

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1126

Freeloading mooches are the scourge of the gaming community.

4/30/13 2:45:04 AM#2

Apparently you have not played age of Conan with their minion system, or City of Heroes man ohh man the herds we used to pull.  Heck even some of the battles and story mode encounters in GW2 give a sense of epic confrontation where you are battling armies.

There are several games that have done what your talking about quite well.  Hmm last one that comes to mind is tabula rasa with their NPC raids.

i think one of the problems why you don't see this alot though is due to the fact that so many people seem to really mainly want PVP or RVR.  Which means balanced battles.

 

  Leethe

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/09
Posts: 876

4/30/13 3:09:03 AM#3
Originally posted by cybertrucker

Apparently you have not played age of Conan with their minion system, or City of Heroes man ohh man the herds we used to pull.  Heck even some of the battles and story mode encounters in GW2 give a sense of epic confrontation where you are battling armies.

There are several games that have done what your talking about quite well.  Hmm last one that comes to mind is tabula rasa with their NPC raids.

i think one of the problems why you don't see this alot though is due to the fact that so many people seem to really mainly want PVP or RVR.  Which means balanced battles.

 

This guy kind of know what he's talking about. What the OP desires exists in many games. How could you miss it?

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  Dhaenon

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 40

"What came first, the music or the misery?"

 
OP  4/30/13 3:19:27 AM#4

I played Age of Conan very shortly as well. Back when it first came out. This minion system you mention does sound interesting. I personally feel that is how a game should be. Fight a large group of minions, all at once and then face off against a more challenging foe, 1v1. 

I played City of Heroes for a very long time, and that is what  I am talking about. You bust into a place, and fight your way through a horde of monsters. I agree with this game as an example of what I enjoy. However, it has been shut down.

I only played GW2 for a little while, but I am pretty sure I remember fighting one monster a time through most of it. Perhaps there are these epic confrontations you are talking about but yes, I must have missed it. 

I was never able to play Tabula Rasa because it was shut down before I got to it. 

You do understand the concept I am talking about though right? You are suppose to be some extraordinaire PC but most of the time you seem weak. 

 

  Crynn

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/08
Posts: 66

4/30/13 3:29:53 AM#5
Originally posted by Dhaenon

I played Age of Conan very shortly as well. Back when it first came out. This minion system you mention does sound interesting. I personally feel that is how a game should be. Fight a large group of minions, all at once and then face off against a more challenging foe, 1v1. 

I played City of Heroes for a very long time, and that is what  I am talking about. You bust into a place, and fight your way through a horde of monsters. I agree with this game as an example of what I enjoy. However, it has been shut down.

I only played GW2 for a little while, but I am pretty sure I remember fighting one monster a time through most of it. Perhaps there are these epic confrontations you are talking about but yes, I must have missed it. 

I was never able to play Tabula Rasa because it was shut down before I got to it. 

You do understand the concept I am talking about though right? You are suppose to be some extraordinaire PC but most of the time you seem weak. 

 

I definitely get your point.

It just doesn't seem right in my own fantasy setting that you're an incredible skilled murdering machine and that it takes as long to kill a boar at max lvl then at lvl 1. A boar is a boar, nothing special about it.. 

However, if they replaced the boars with lets say 'an elite squad of well trained assassins' then that would make sense having a tough battle 1 on 1.

  Dhaenon

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 40

"What came first, the music or the misery?"

 
OP  4/30/13 3:32:56 AM#6

I want a minion system. Where I fight through waves of weak minions to face a boss in an equal match of skill.

Housing

Customization 

Storyline

Co-op dungeon crawling awesomeness.

 

I am beginning to fear that MMOs just are not that, anymore.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13154

4/30/13 9:14:12 AM#7

Lots of games have you go fight against thousands of random mobs, but only one or two at a time.  Or there's the classic dungeon instance approach where your group of 5 has to kill about a hundred mobs that split up into groups of three and wait to be pulled.

How many single player games have you by yourself fight against hundreds of mobs at once?  Or even dozens of mobs simultaneously, as opposed to one at a time?

Champions Online commonly has you fight mobs that are weaker than you, so even the solo content is designed to feature a bunch of 1 on 4 battles.  Go to group content and it tends to be more even numbers, however, as they make the mobs much stronger.

Spiral Knights will throw overwhelming numbers at you in some spots so that you can fight 1 on 12 or some such, and mostly run around dodging.  Of course, if you have a group, then it's now 4 on 12.

  Slampig

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2378

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

4/30/13 9:18:28 AM#8
Originally posted by Dhaenon

The concept of one person, or a small group versus an entire army! The concept of power. 

 

Force Unleashed, one badass Sith killing his way through a star destroyer in order to confront a Jedi master.

Batman: Arkham Asylum, one superhero fighting his way through a horde of escaped psychotics in order to confront a super villain. 

Mass Effect, a squad of 3 soldiers fighting their way across a planet to confront a gargantuan planet destroying ship-monster.

 

MMOs

World of Warcraft, leveling to godlike power in order to fight a boar who also has godlike power... but only one at a time, or maybe two because 3 or more boars would murder you. 

SWTOR, one badass Sith (and his pocket healer) killing a single criminal (he has a gold star next to his head so that means he is strooooong)... and praying that he doesn't call for any backup. 

 

I was a huge fan of MMOs for 10 years or so, but now I am starting to think they are just horrible. Each new release is worst than the last. 

 

All of that from just two MMO's?

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1598

4/30/13 9:21:46 AM#9

It's not really a MMO more of a ARPG but Marvel Heroes does minon's really well IMO.  It's pretty satisfing seeing the hulk send whole packs of them flying with a jump.

Large packs of mobs are difficult to balance in a MMO from what I have seen.  If you have a strong AOE agro tank and a couple good AOE dps classes you burn them down so quickly they don't matter where on the other hand if your tank is more focused to single target agro and your lacking in AOE DPS you end up have contol issues.  It's much easier to balance one really big bad named that might use adds as flavor than it is to balance a ton of smaller mobs.

  Kenaoshi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/09
Posts: 1003

4/30/13 9:29:47 AM#10
Agree with second poster. In Gw2 i am pretty much opening a can of "woop-ass" with my norn warrior against every horde of enemies. Maybe you should try some GW2 epicness.

now: GW2 (8 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

4/30/13 11:07:05 AM#11
Originally posted by Dhaenon

The concept of one person, or a small group versus an entire army! The concept of power. 

 

ARPGs like DIablo 3, PoE, Torchlight 2 ... are what you are looking for.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/30/13 1:28:07 PM#12
It is rare, and wouldn't mind seeing more of it.  CoH was the best example for sure, where you regularly fought big packs of minions and much of the skill design and enemy behavior made it a fun game to try to optimize how effective your AOE attacks were.
  Dhaenon

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 40

"What came first, the music or the misery?"

 
OP  4/30/13 3:34:54 PM#13
The best example I can think of in a video game is the Force Unleashed, where you roll into a hangar bay and there is like 20+ Stormtroopers and you just hack your way through them with saber cuts and force powers.

  thecapitaine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 389

4/30/13 3:41:04 PM#14
You guys are forgetting two of the ultimate one-man-army franchises-- Dynasty Warriors and Samurai Warriors!  Why settle on dozens or even hundreds when you can carve a path through thousands in a single battle?  There was even a Dynasty Warriors MMO made, I believe, but I never played it.
  Squeak69

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 959

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

4/30/13 3:47:23 PM#15

SP vs MMO

two entirely diffrent beasts, one needs to be balenced for fair play the other is a game where long as you have fun thats all that matters and balenceing be damned.

this is a bit of a old issue, and also there are MMOs out there that do resolve this, and in the end you could always go back to lower level zones and kills things in mass if you wants.

even in most books and movies this dont happen as its not fun to watch someone just kill something by the dozen it gets boring after a bit, people want to see a hard fight instead.

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 295

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

5/02/13 7:48:22 PM#16
Dungeon crawls like Diablo are supposed to be like that, but Blizzard lost the memo on how to make games fun. Arena.net seems to get the point too, vindictus seemed to be thrash enough, but um... It lacks other qualities.

I think the big limitation that most MMOs have to overcome is their reliance on tanks using agro control and hyper specialized roles which have been promoted for years. There's nothing fun about it, it gimps gameplay and forms it into something that doesn't work on a grand scale.

Another issue is that they never make a fundamental system where strong units and week units can participate in a competitive manner. MMOs use too much threshold mechanics. If balance was generated so a strong player could fight 2 normal players on even terms or 4 weak players, or 1 normal player could face 2 weak players, there would be a fundamental scaling to challenge players at any level. Strong players could solo hard content and team up for super hard content, but weak players could face that same content in greater numbers and utilizing more specialization and teamwork.

The way it is now, 20 LVL 5s couldn't beat one LVL 20 because he takes no damage while one shotting groups of them.

A game which relies more on tactics and action input rather than character development to defeat foes could remove these thresholds and make a system with proportionate power that can be summed by a combination of various levels. And in so doing, make content which scales from grouping up to fight foes, to fighting them alone, to facing a hoard on your own, even with the same content, and even more importanty, in PvP as well.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2914

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

5/02/13 7:56:36 PM#17


Originally posted by Dhaenon
The concept of one person, or a small group versus an entire army! The concept of power. 

Force Unleashed, one badass Sith killing his way through a star destroyer in order to confront a Jedi master.

Batman: Arkham Asylum, one superhero fighting his way through a horde of escaped psychotics in order to confront a super villain. 

Mass Effect, a squad of 3 soldiers fighting their way across a planet to confront a gargantuan planet destroying ship-monster.

MMOs

World of Warcraft, leveling to godlike power in order to fight a boar who also has godlike power... but only one at a time, or maybe two because 3 or more boars would murder you. 

SWTOR, one badass Sith (and his pocket healer) killing a single criminal (he has a gold star next to his head so that means he is strooooong)... and praying that he doesn't call for any backup. 

I was a huge fan of MMOs for 10 years or so, but now I am starting to think they are just horrible. Each new release is worst than the last. 



The first that comes to my mind is simply, Other Players.

In the single player games, it matters to nobody else if you single-handedly wipe out an entire planet. There are no other players that are affected.

In MMOs, you now have many, many players that can be affected by another player's actions. This sometimes happened in the old MMOs when a high level player would literally clear out starting zones of all creatures and NPCs alike leaving nothing for the new players to do.

MMOs were also about "teamwork." They were set up so that no one singular player could take down the massive dragon at the end of the game. They needed help, so they asked other players to lend a hand, thus helping to form a community of sorts.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 478

5/02/13 8:15:02 PM#18

 Err is it lacking... I know that often you go one on one or your group might fight another smaller group of mobs. But I've quite often taken on larger groups, alone or in a group or with a raid. And isnt going through a dungeon like a jedi or sith going through a star destroyer... You are never fighting all of them at once.

 Ok so you want to fling minions aside and blast hundreds with lightning.. I dont personally like my MMOs that way... It doesnt Jive with me when everyone is a superhero or a demigod. I would, by far, prefer the other extreme of my character just being some Average Joe. Because, to me, it does seem so special when everyone else is doing same godlike thing.

 Its fine when you are playing a single or multi player game. Because then you are the only one doing that. 

 So.. It really isnt lacking.. unless you crave throngs of throwaway minions to be crushed by your awesome power.

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 295

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

5/02/13 8:29:38 PM#19
The advantage of a power play character is that the exact same specialization and teamwork content can be scaled to face superpowers, but the classic system lacks a method for you to thrash foes on your own. There are no lack of singularly powerful foes in super power games, but there is a huge lack of organized foes outnumbering you and hoard thrashing gameplay in the classic offering.

And it also doesn't have to be super saiyan 4 to grant a powerful feel, dueling one for at a time in quick succession is interesting, moreso when your in a group of said number fighting an equal said number of foes, with new foes replacing every felled one.

A group of players can thrash an even larger hoard, there's no point debating it because it already exists in many dungeon crawls and action packed online games, GW and Vindictus display this just fine.

Since when is it only epic for a rag tag group to defeat a dragon? What about a dragon overcoming a team of slayers? Gameplay needs to find a way to include a spectrum of challenge, not artificially limit ourselves to the challenges yesterday accepted only because of technological limitations. We can feature both in a modern, more advanced stage of gameplay.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16985

5/02/13 8:33:37 PM#20
Originally posted by Dhaenon

The concept of one person, or a small group versus an entire army! The concept of power. 

 


MMOs

World of Warcraft, leveling to godlike power in order to fight a boar who also has godlike power... but only one at a time, or maybe two because 3 or more boars would murder you. 

lol, yeag I've noticed this as well. LOTRO has this. You can be the top level but you will fight

dum dum dummmmm!!!!!

birds.

 

If I was in ownership of a game I would fire the people who made this decision.

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