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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » F2P is making more than TWICE as much money as P2P in the US

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196 posts found
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6026

5/01/13 5:17:32 PM#101
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by Tjed
Dude, do you work for EA or PW or something?  Serious question, as I have never seen a bigger white knight for micro transaction, cash shops.  Never on any website for any game or any genre of game.... ever.  Do you?

The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

It's not that I won't pay a subscription anymore, but that I don't want to rent temporary access to my games.  I don't want to pump $300 into a game and then have to keep pumping more money into it in order to play.

I've been subbed to Tera since F2P and it's been a great deal.  I just cancelled because I haven't had the time to devote or focus on the game.  I still get to play, have access, and enjoy the game and all the money I've put in ($20 up front and 3 months of sub) didn't go to waste.  When I'm ready to focus on that game again I'll probably resub.

Bottom line - it's not too expensive to sub, for me.  I don't consider it a good value to rent access to games.  Hopefully these models will evolve in a manner that satisfies everyone with money burning their wallets (p2p and f2p folks).

Curse you AquaScum!

  Tjed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 161

5/01/13 5:17:38 PM#102
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by Tjed
Dude, do you work for EA or PW or something?  Serious question, as I have never seen a bigger white knight for micro transaction, cash shops.  Never on any website for any game or any genre of game.... ever.  Do you?

The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

 

How, exactly, is prefering a $15 a month subscription fee, expecting these games to be created over 3-5 years and handed to me for free?

Edit:  I'm also cool with $60 up front and $30 or so for an expansion.

  Dogblaster

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

5/01/13 5:20:32 PM#103

there are also more than twice as much freeloaders and free to play mmorpgs than true mmorpg players and p2p mmorpgs .. So ... yea

 

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

5/01/13 5:43:55 PM#104
Originally posted by Dogblaster

there are also more than twice as much freeloaders and free to play mmorpgs than true mmorpg players and p2p mmorpgs .. So ... yea

 

How are you a freeloader in a free game? better yet explain how there can be twice as much as in a p2p game if a p2p has none? What's the double of none

  Miblet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

5/01/13 5:57:01 PM#105
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by Dogblaster

there are also more than twice as much freeloaders and free to play mmorpgs than true mmorpg players and p2p mmorpgs .. So ... yea

 

How are you a freeloader in a free game? better yet explain how there can be twice as much as in a p2p game if a p2p has none? What's the double of none

I'm assuming he meant double the number of P2P players.

Technically while the term freeloading is a bit harsh, those who play wihout spending are being subsidised by those who do (though the ratio is higher than 2:1 for non paying:paying).  There is nothing free in this world, and whenever someone says something is free there is a catch.  F2P is no different, the servers the games run off cost money, staff costs money etc if nobody at all paid the games would simply close.

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

5/01/13 6:09:47 PM#106
Originally posted by Miblet
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by Dogblaster

there are also more than twice as much freeloaders and free to play mmorpgs than true mmorpg players and p2p mmorpgs .. So ... yea

 

How are you a freeloader in a free game? better yet explain how there can be twice as much as in a p2p game if a p2p has none? What's the double of none

I'm assuming he meant double the number of P2P players.

Technically while the term freeloading is a bit harsh, those who play wihout spending are being subsidised by those who do (though the ratio is higher than 2:1 for non paying:paying).  There is nothing free in this world, and whenever someone says something is free there is a catch.  F2P is no different, the servers the games run off cost money, staff costs money etc if nobody at all paid the games would simply close.

Free players are just as valuable because an empty game won't attract paying gamers either but you are right, I read his post wrong. As for nothing being free, plenty of games are free. You may not get access to everything but people do play the free portion forever and being content with doing so. It's more of a personal view than a universal truth

  plutosams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/12
Posts: 49

5/01/13 6:34:25 PM#107

This is a very large misread of the data.  The correct title would, "F2P Market makes more than the P2P Market".  You also should be very wary of any data that company presents because their methodology section leaves much to be desired.  All you can actually say with the data presented is that P2P lost net subscribers and F2P gained net subscribing, additionally the F2P MARKET saw a net increase in revenue while the P2P market saw a net decrease.  When looked at this from a common sense perspective it doesn't take long to realize these numbers are scewed.  The sheer amount of F2P titles far outweighs the amount of P2P titles...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.

Here is a bit of rude math.  They list 350 titles included in their data of which MMOs only account for 1 of 4 types included.   So since we have no idea what the real number of MMOs is let's just use the list that MMORPG maintains.  Of the MMOs listed with listed fee schedules and that have been released we are left with 513 titles; 46 of which list a subscription fee.  In this sample alone P2P only account for 9% of the total MMOs.  If we apply this to the number provided in the link it means 46 titles earned $86 million or $1.9 million per game (obviously certain games make much more than that).  F2P made $195 million; split among the remaining 467 games comes to $418k per game, less than 25% of the per game amount of P2P.  Mind you this is rough math, but gives a general idea of what is happening with the data.  Wording it to sound like F2P "games" make more money is erroneous.  The F2P market certainly makes more, but games do not.   Additionally, the data above includes many games that are barely making if at all, so the real number of active mmos is much smaller than the number I used here. 

What one would very likely find in a full analysis of games is that a small handful of F2P games make enough money to stay in competition with the P2P heavy weights, but very few.  

  Miblet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

5/01/13 6:40:03 PM#108

I agree free players do add something to the experience in making the game world more lively and providing group members and potential new friends to meet.

As I said there is no free.  F2P gamers that pay for nothing are merely having someone else pay for them.  Also in general if you don't pay cash and do play for free in such games you will be paying in the excess time required to do the same tasks as paying players.

  Lanfea

Elite Member

Joined: 10/19/04
Posts: 218

5/01/13 7:16:35 PM#109

plutosams hits the nail.

 

we have to take a closer look into the data and can't trust any flat conclusion. not long ago i saw a similiar statistic for the german mmo market. f2p-games generated nealry 75% of the overall mmo revenue in the year 2012. but in this statistic browser games, companies like zynga or bigpoint offer, were listed as f2p games aswell as any freemium game like ddo or lotro. and don't underestimate the browser game market. while the ARPPU (average revenue per paying user (per month)) generated by the cashshop in high quality browser games can reach up to 10$ the ARPPU generated in cashshops in games like gw2 or swtor are mainly below 5$. also from estimated 38 million germans who are playing mmogs only 16 million use to play client based mmos. see, games like tera, eq I & II, lotro, swtor and many more didn't went f2p because they would make money with the cashshop, they went f2p to get people into a subscription.

 

f2p is nothing more than a heavy by marketing rules modified version of the good old 14-days-trial offer. its a good way for older high budget p2p games to get new players and fresh blood and its a must-do thing for newer mediocre games like swtor or neverwinter to reach out for a bigger customer group, people who would'nt pay 40$ only to get into the game.

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20250

 
OP  5/01/13 8:51:29 PM#110
Originally posted by fivoroth
No suprises there. There are only a handful P2P MMOs out there and a billion F2P asian grinders :D

This is US data.

And if F2P asian grinders are so popular in the US, more power to them. May be US companies can learn a thing or two.

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20250

 
OP  5/01/13 8:54:49 PM#111
Originally posted by MindTrigger
 

The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

Yeah. I am one of them. I don't see a reason to sub anymore. This explosion of the F2P market is good news. That means MORE F2P MMOs will be produced and i have more choices.

Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

I have no problems with cash shop. It is pretty easy to ignore, and i am grateful the cash shops let the whales subsidizing my games.

The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

"afford" .. i use to pay a sub to WOW .. don't see any reason to do so anymore. It is not about affordablility. It is about competition. If i can have fun for free, is there a reason not to?

And yes, i not only expect these games to be created 3-5 years and haned to me for free ... i am actually playing them. So far the expectation is met.

 

 

  kadepsyson

Novice Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

5/01/13 8:56:48 PM#112

Active users?

Registered accounts?

Who can really tell what a free to play player counts as?  People are probably counted as playing F2P games even if the person has been dead for a year.  They just aren't buying as much from the cash shop lately.

El Psy Congroo

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

5/02/13 2:40:35 AM#113
Originally posted by Miblet

As I said there is no free.  F2P gamers that pay for nothing are merely having someone else pay for them.  Also in general if you don't pay cash and do play for free in such games you will be paying in the excess time required to do the same tasks as paying players.

We will just have to disagree. If I don't pay then it's free for me. It doesn't matter if the company or others pay my way. In the end it's about me not about the next guy. So using free is a perfect way to describe something I'm not paying for. Again free players are valuable because they perform a much needed service to a F2P game namely population so in relative terms they pay with their presence.

 

You don't sit and bicker with people, who just told you the admission to a show they are going to is free do you? If so, you would have to be a pretty annoying person to deal with on a daily basis, if you insist it isn't free because the people behind it pays rent, electricity and whatnot

  User Deleted
5/02/13 2:44:50 AM#114
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

 

"Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

 

 

Only if you spend the money. I personally dont.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

5/02/13 11:46:22 AM#115


Originally posted by plutosams
...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.


This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

5/02/13 12:02:21 PM#116

F2P vaters tot he two biggest groups

Those who don't want to pay anything and will play ubtil they feel they have to spend money and leave.

Those who want to be able to pay to not paly a game and/or gain soem perceived advantage.

group 1 serves to make group 2 feel elite.

Anyone inbetween is usually screwed though soem fo the newer F2P games have less aggressive microtransactions so those who don't mind paying modest price every so often can still feel competitive but this is not the norm yet.

I am not currently palying any MMORPG.I play games for fun and liek to be immersed in a game's story and/or world to get away from the real world just like I do when I read or watch T.V.Constant reminders of real world money break my flow and lessen my fun.

This is true of Dead Space 3 too and moblie games that cosntantly try to force you to buy more coins or energy.

Just My Opinion but I know I'm a minority opinion.

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20250

 
OP  5/02/13 12:16:30 PM#117
Originally posted by KroxMalon
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

 

"Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

 

 

Only if you spend the money. I personally dont.

Most don't. It is well known that F2P games are paid for by a few whales.

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20250

 
OP  5/02/13 12:19:49 PM#118
Originally posted by Drakynn

F2P vaters tot he two biggest groups

Those who don't want to pay anything and will play ubtil they feel they have to spend money and leave.

Those who want to be able to pay to not paly a game and/or gain soem perceived advantage.

group 1 serves to make group 2 feel elite.

Anyone inbetween is usually screwed though soem fo the newer F2P games have less aggressive microtransactions so those who don't mind paying modest price every so often can still feel competitive but this is not the norm yet.

I am not currently palying any MMORPG.I play games for fun and liek to be immersed in a game's story and/or world to get away from the real world just like I do when I read or watch T.V.Constant reminders of real world money break my flow and lessen my fun.

This is true of Dead Space 3 too and moblie games that cosntantly try to force you to buy more coins or energy.

Just My Opinion but I know I'm a minority opinion.

There are a lot of group 1, and enough group 2, so the F2P model works wonder.

Dead Space 3 is a fun game. I finished it without paying a cent of RMT. I am not bothered by RMT. In fact, i like RMT in D3 ... i can make some money, and retain the value of my "earnings" better (since real money in my D3 account don't depreciate like gold).

The existence of RMT does not lessen my fun at all. I guess i am blessed that way. There are more fun games for me to play, and many are free.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2555

5/02/13 12:30:45 PM#119
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by plutosams
...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.

 


This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20250

 
OP  5/02/13 12:42:06 PM#120
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by plutosams
...likely meaning that revenue per game on P2P far EXCEEDS net revenue per game of F2P.

 


This. If I were a developer, I'd rather join the profit-earning P2P market rather than the oversaturated, penny-squeezing "F2P" market. In fact, I need to find my tinfoil hat because I'm starting to think this huge "F2P" push is meant to drive competition away from the P2P market. "F2P" is the new "Greenland," luring hopeful companies to their eventual demise.

I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

What? P2P is profit earning? Where have you been? p2p-only game is in decline precisely because money is taken away and goes to F2P games.

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