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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » State of the industry: Buy full B2P MMO for price of one subscription from year ago.

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68 posts found
  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3541

4/30/13 11:24:24 PM#41
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

 I know alot of people seem to like it but I never thought it was a very good game.....While 15 dollars seems like a fair price, I think alot of people have moved on and are looking forward to other games at this point.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5366

I dare you to pin a label on me.

5/01/13 3:08:50 AM#42

I can't speak for anyone else, but TSW felt like every game before it. Combat was arcaic and boring, skill wheel felt a little more than a gimmick... it wasn't released in a particularly good state either: It was unfinished.

Funcom happened.

Have they ever had a succesful launch?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

5/01/13 3:20:32 AM#43
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.

This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.

They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.

Well done.

 

 

This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.

TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.

Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.

 

 

 

 

For years and im talking 2004 when i was still playing Asheron's call 2 is timesink and sub every month  they dont have time or wanne pay for something they dont always play.

Now almost 10years later we have F2P/B2P(still many pay more then before every months in cashshop lol) and fast cookies and prgress all solo almost no timesink anymore thanks to old skool gamers :P

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/01/13 3:28:31 AM#44
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.

It's the same as a monthly sub for a subscription MMO right now, or has that changed?

Also, the box price of almost every MMO drops after a year, so I'm not seeing how that has anything to do with the problems TSW has or doesn't have, let alone the state of the industry.

Careful, do not tread on the false dichotomy, it is a delicate flower.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  -aLpHa-

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 843

5/01/13 4:46:33 AM#45

I bought TSW, all i can say is that the combat is horrible. It's probably one of the worst i have ever seen. You do allot of combat in that game, which in turn is quite a problem for me.

I quit when i got to Egypt because i wanted to finish the Solomon island story line, which was quite good, too bad really, especially since this was developed by the same guys who did Age of Conan where the combat was pretty good.

  User Deleted
5/01/13 4:50:34 AM#46

Its just simple supply and demand. Onec one company started offering a decent themepark for free, the rest had to follow. If someone offered you a hamburger for $10, and another company offered you a hamburger for free, but it came with no fillings and you had to buy them individually, what would you pick? Depends on how many fillings you want doesnt it?

People will go wherever the value for money is. Which is why the subscription industry has folded. You have to be offering something you cant get elsewhere to keep the sub model.

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

5/01/13 5:08:06 AM#47
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Vidir
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.

This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.

They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.

Well done.

 

 

This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.

TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.

Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.

 

 

 

 

Game creators will do what ever they think vill bring in the most money for them.

Except as we've seen, what publishers think will sell has NOT been what's actually sold, hence the failure of almost every AAA MMORPG since 2004.  They won't do what we actually want.

 

So a growing market financially, demographically and numerically has been failing since 2004? no the market failed to make games you like. The MMO genre has been a runnaway success for everyone else, thats why we have many many more MMO's in development with millions of dollars backing them TESO, Archeage, EQnext, Turbines secret MMO etc.. The problem with the market is the amount of different games to play many players don't stay a long as they used to BUT many many players do, my guild in TOR has many players they were in headstart and love the game and there are loads of guilds the same throughout game.

 I wish some people around here would get their head out of the "games were better back in day" sand and see the bigger picture. MMO's have exploded in the last decade and the diversity is there and continuing to broaden you have games like EvE (space sandbox), A Tail In the Desert (crafting MMO), Wurm Online (Medieval sandbox), TOR (SciFantasy Themepark), GW2 (Low Fantasy Thempark), Atlantica (MMOTBS) the list goes on and on, just focusing on AAA games is rather myopic really even when all the AAA games of the last few years are still running except a couple ie Tabula Rasa, COX.

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  Sulaa

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/11
Posts: 830

5/01/13 5:29:14 AM#48
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Sulaa

Guess I am not 'core' group then.  I am also a member of a small forum that theoretically focuses on mmorpg's with around 30 regulars and around 20-30 more sporadic members. It consist of 'old timers' remembering UO and members that came up with later and even relatively recent games.   2 members played this game only after release (much more checked beta ofc), then few more bought it for 15$ on amazon sale few months ago.   As far as I know - 1 person played few months and those other few that gave game a shot played only between few days and few weeks.

Most people that played - were not agreeing with Funcom opinion about 'trying too much new'.   They described it as story-focused linear themepark with preety standard instanced end-game.  Some even said that it resembled single player adventure game just with some apparent mmorpg mechanics showing every now and then.  Others compared it to Swtor.

I am one of those that snagged very cheap copy months ago - and I would say that 'too much new' is not problem either.  Anyone who had been playing themeparks in last 3-4 years will have no problem in finding himself in this game.  So I don't think 'innovation' is what killed this game as there is not much innovation there aside of incorporating even stronger single player approach to levelling.

 

'Failed so hard' - everyone has their own measure what that mean, but since game was not even remotely close to their lower scenario target sales and subsciptions,  CEO of Funcom left company 1 day before TSW release and is facing insider trade investigation, Funcom fired most of their workers and is undergoing heavy restructurizaion,  was unable to repay debt (in talks with debt owners), it's stock lost over 90% in last year (crashed soon after TSW release) and finally company is looking to sale itself / investor - then I would assume that it failed hard.

I hadn't followed along, so it sounds like it was indeed a hard failure.

As for trying too much new, "most people that played" is the key point!  Most people who play a Barbie Dress-Up videogame don't complain they're playing a Barbie Dress-Up game.  Because the only people buying Barbie games are people who want to play Barbie games.  And in this case, the number of people who wanted to play a modern horror MMORPG wasn't particularly high.

Modern horrr theme especially that Funcom advertised 'serious' approach and at same time had put big amounts of  almost-Tales-from-the-Crypt-like 'funny grotesque' which may hurt game / theme coherency for some.

Still I would not stress theme problem too much.  I think main problem was that very heavy 'cinematic linear story' Bioware style does not mix as good for mmorpg's as industry hoped and banked for. I don't know why industry went for this since that kind of design does not offer replayability or even one but slow playthrough on the contrary it is best suited for 'play through once' and relatively fast.  Not something you want for mmorpg from business point of view I would assume.

It's kinda telling that even in single player rpg-ish department Bioware / cinematic-linear-storytelling has it's biggest success in Mass Effect series which is very lite on rpg + third person shooter rather than normal core rpg game and it's audience is in big part diffrent than audience of older BW games. (ofc there is partial overlap and old BW fans as well but that's not the point).

Other than personified cinematic story experience - TSW offered very normal very standard end-game instances only experience.  Which is a field with very strong competition, so with normal amount of players leaving game once they hit standard end-game and with small playerbase even after b2p conversion - then I can't see where and how TSW could build it's success on.   Of course - it does not mean it won't make positive cash flows - but I think investors will have a hard and long time time seeing this game returning millions invested in it for development and even harder seeing promised profits.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

5/01/13 11:24:28 AM#49
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 

Sell it as buy to play, and don't pretend its an MMO and then they're all set.

However, all their marketing went into pretending it was an MMO. And honestly, it would have been a hundred times better has a singleplayer/coop game. That way the plot  could actually impact the world, and not be dragged out to get longer subs.

Yeh .. and isn't that what they have done?

I did a 3-day trial. It works pretty well as a SP/co-op game. I may even shell out the $15 if i have the time for it.

  Beatnik59

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2060

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

5/01/13 12:02:06 PM#50

Yes, the "buy in" price has gone down...as well it should, because these things can be taken away from us at any time.

The CoH closure was a wake up call for me; our continued enjoyment of these things is wholly dependent on factors outside of our control.  As a result, is it any wonder why people might be skeptical to pay $60 ... or even $15 ... for something that can go *poof* at the stroke of an accountant's pen?

Yes, the price for these games better go down, because there's a kind of risk associated with these products that you don't have in other forms of computer entertainment.  Because it's one thing to risk spending a lot of money on a game you don't like.  It's another thing to risk spending money on a game you like too much, only to have the game get snatched out from under you by a cost-cutting executive somewhere.

__________________________
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--Arcken

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  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/01/13 12:44:40 PM#51
Originally posted by Sulaa

Modern horrr theme especially that Funcom advertised 'serious' approach and at same time had put big amounts of  almost-Tales-from-the-Crypt-like 'funny grotesque' which may hurt game / theme coherency for some.

Still I would not stress theme problem too much.  I think main problem was that very heavy 'cinematic linear story' Bioware style does not mix as good for mmorpg's as industry hoped and banked for. I don't know why industry went for this since that kind of design does not offer replayability or even one but slow playthrough on the contrary it is best suited for 'play through once' and relatively fast.  Not something you want for mmorpg from business point of view I would assume.

It's kinda telling that even in single player rpg-ish department Bioware / cinematic-linear-storytelling has it's biggest success in Mass Effect series which is very lite on rpg + third person shooter rather than normal core rpg game and it's audience is in big part diffrent than audience of older BW games. (ofc there is partial overlap and old BW fans as well but that's not the point).

Other than personified cinematic story experience - TSW offered very normal very standard end-game instances only experience.  Which is a field with very strong competition, so with normal amount of players leaving game once they hit standard end-game and with small playerbase even after b2p conversion - then I can't see where and how TSW could build it's success on.   Of course - it does not mean it won't make positive cash flows - but I think investors will have a hard and long time time seeing this game returning millions invested in it for development and even harder seeing promised profits.

"Funny grotesque" doesn't matter to the players who didn't buy though.  The Barbie game could have a part where she sells her Corvette for crack money.  That's not going to matter to the people who didn't buy the game because the initial premise wasn't appealing.

Theme is a major element in whether someone buys or doesn't buy a game, whether or not you realize it.  I'm simply not going to buy a Barbie game, and some MMORPG gamers aren't going to buy a horror game or a modern game or a game without a particularly clear theme.

WOW quests aren't particularly replayable either, yet it persists.  Higher quality questing mechanisms aren't the problem unless they start to interfere with actual gameplay (don't contain gameplay themselves, or aren't easily skipped.)

Sort of hilarious to call the RPG which probably has the most consequential story decisions of any RPG ever "lite on RPG", but sure it has an atypical combat system (although are people questioning Skyrim and Fallout's RPG just because it uses atypical FPS combat too?)

Personally I don't care if a game is "very standard" in its setup.  All that matters is the moment-to-moment gameplay of each fight being at least as fun as WOW's.  Thus far, few have come close (RIFT/CoH) and most (TSW included, despite being  above average) are pretty far away.

  cinos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/05
Posts: 958

5/01/13 12:47:59 PM#52
Genuine question: Are content updates free after initial purchase like in GW2, or do you have to pay extra for each major update?
  asmkm22

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1620

5/01/13 12:48:31 PM#53
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

The core gameplay (combat) isn't very good.  Yes, there will be some people that love it, and will just claim everyone else needs to learn how the skills work, etc, but the fact is the combat is slow and boring.

That said, it's more fun during "boss" fights in dungeons, because there really is a lot going on and you're constantly moving and jumping around.  Everything else though, feels like bad design.

You make me like charity

  DavisFlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2369

5/01/13 12:52:36 PM#54
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Vidir
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.

This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.

They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.

Well done.

 

 

This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.

TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.

Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.

 

 

 

 

Game creators will do what ever they think vill bring in the most money for them.

Except as we've seen, what publishers think will sell has NOT been what's actually sold, hence the failure of almost every AAA MMORPG since 2004.  They won't do what we actually want.

 

So a growing market financially, demographically and numerically has been failing since 2004?

Yes. DDO crashed and burned, and LotRO limped along. Vanguard crashed. Age of Conan crashed HARD. WAR crashed. SWTOR crashed. Rift crashed. TSW crashed. TR crashed. Star Trek crashed. DC crashed. 

Every single AAA MMORPG has had to lay off staff and merge servers within a few months of launch.

That is not the sign of a successful industry. Especially when compared to the long term steady growth of pre WoW non themepark MMOs.

  DavisFlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2369

5/01/13 12:54:29 PM#55
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 

Sell it as buy to play, and don't pretend its an MMO and then they're all set.

However, all their marketing went into pretending it was an MMO. And honestly, it would have been a hundred times better has a singleplayer/coop game. That way the plot  could actually impact the world, and not be dragged out to get longer subs.

Yeh .. and isn't that what they have done?

 

It's what they've done after they tricked customers into thinking it was an MMO, lost a shit ton of money and credibility, and scrambled to lower the price.

They're still trying to call it an MMO though.

  cinos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/05
Posts: 958

5/01/13 12:55:48 PM#56
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Vidir
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.

This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.

They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.

Well done.

 

 

This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.

TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.

Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.

 

 

 

 

Game creators will do what ever they think vill bring in the most money for them.

Except as we've seen, what publishers think will sell has NOT been what's actually sold, hence the failure of almost every AAA MMORPG since 2004.  They won't do what we actually want.

 

So a growing market financially, demographically and numerically has been failing since 2004?

Yes. DDO crashed and burned, and LotRO limped along. Vanguard crashed. Age of Conan crashed HARD. WAR crashed. SWTOR crashed. Rift crashed. TSW crashed. TR crashed. Star Trek crashed. DC crashed. 

Every single AAA MMORPG has had to lay off staff and merge servers within a few months of launch.

That is not the sign of a successful industry. Especially when compared to the long term steady growth of pre WoW non themepark MMOs.

Except Anet of course. Those guys are still hiring.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/01/13 12:59:35 PM#57

Not all  pre-wow games had long term steady growth, many had decreasing subscribers.  Daoc dropped, Shadowbane dropped, AC dropped.  Perhaps not immediatley after the initial launch but within a short period of time.   I'm sure there are several more.

But it true that many games have had a hard time.

It is also true that there are more people playing than ever before.

It is also true that there are more games and more money than ever before.

It is also true that post wow numbers for games are equal to pre-wow numbers for games.

However the games themselves have become way way more expensive to make. 

There had to be a shake-up and it is going on now.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2255

5/01/13 1:06:35 PM#58

IMO it is a good thing. Fewer MMOs are shutting down.

It shows that developers are more willing to change to survive than to try and fail with their restricted decisions.

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 5754

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

5/01/13 1:06:47 PM#59
Originally posted by Quirhid

I can't speak for anyone else, but TSW felt like every game before it. Combat was arcaic and boring, skill wheel felt a little more than a gimmick... it wasn't released in a particularly good state either: It was unfinished.

Funcom happened.

Have they ever had a succesful launch?

 I really would like to know what felt like every game before TSW, I mean most of what I read on these forums often speak mainly about the skills or combat, hardly do I read people speaking about the game, the lore, the settings, the story and how it's connected ...or not.

However due to how people complain about games gives me a very good indication that it's often a persons playstyle and not so much the game. Unless a person actually speaks about the game instead of just a few "important" feature's.

As for OP, as VengeSunsoar wrote to me it also seems that developers seem to listen to the "new" majority unless a person is only stuck with using mmorpg.com then I could understand them thinking differently.

 

 

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 599

5/01/13 1:29:53 PM#60

TSW fails because like others montioned, they listened to the community. That is always a mistake, just like in politics.  People don't really know what they want or need; it is up to the leaders and the intellectuals to know what's best for the people and make it happen.

The community says they want things easier, more casual; that's promoting a welfare system and in a welfare system you incentivize laziness and mediocrity. Make a MMO too easy and you have the same problem. Games need to be challenging, difficult to amass wealth and the best items and allow the elite to stand above the rest. It keeps the less-skilled or less-devoted players in the game because although they will never get everything the elite players get they will be guided by the dream.

The community doesn't want to have to grind; again, that's another way to say they don't want to work for their character progression. The grind needs to exist, but with the grind must be the game functionality that makes the grind enjoyable and fulfilling. Of course players don't want to have to grind, but when it comes down to it, grind = the game experience.

The community thinks it wants a classless system; classes and roles are the backbone of MMO's and you take away any idea of your character being unique and special when everyone can all be the same.

The community is done with elves and orcs and wants something different: Oh, they are not done... games like TSW prove that we all really prefer magic, swords and armor over guns, regular clothing and all that modern or post-apocalyptic nonsense.\

The community wants pvp balance for all 1v1 matchups; That doesn't happen in the real world and it shouldn't be something that an MMO really needs to be concerned with. If the MMO has minimal pvp then who cares and if it has alot then rock/paper/scissors balancing is best; it's also more strategic and challenging.

 

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