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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » State of the industry: Buy full B2P MMO for price of one subscription from year ago.

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68 posts found
  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

4/30/13 10:44:18 AM#21
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

Terrible combat

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

4/30/13 10:59:44 AM#22
Originally posted by Lobotomist
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

TSW is excellent game. This tread is about MMOs in general.

 

wait .. you are using TSW as an example of MMO failing .. and you said it is an excellent game?

So are all the other failing MMOs also excellent game too? And  they fail because of other reasons .. like competition?

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1667

4/30/13 2:05:12 PM#23
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.

This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.

They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.

Well done.

 

 

This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.

TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.

Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.

 

I'm fascinated by this apparent failure of the MMO industry that had 4 viable MMO's in 1999 and a couple million players and now 100's of MMO's and 10 of milions of players. With MMO's launching every year and many still going strong UO 17 EQ 14 LoTRO 6 SWTOR 1.5 hell even games like Perfect World are still going strong after 8 years, also Silk Road Online 10 MU Online 10. Just because a company with two lousy releases then a good release but a small unfinished game has failed does not mean the whole industry has failed, that is seriously flawed logic. TSW is a mediocre game and the price reflects that.

 

Some posters have to learn to differentiate between a market without games they like and a failed market the two are completely different. For posters who constantly infer their intelligence they sure lack common sense.

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

4/30/13 2:42:48 PM#24
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

By the developers' own words in an interview a while back they mentioned something about trying something new.  Which I took to mean as both the puzzle and horror parts of their game being outside players' comfort.

The core MMORPG group (myself included) ate it up, of course, but you need a wider audience than that to really create a smash hit.

That said, I think it's probably overly harsh to imply it "failed so hard".  They're still going, and the price point is simply adaptation.  As another recent thread points out, market saturation is also a factor.

Yeah sorry, I don't like the game but my question did sound a little harsh even then.  I just meant, in context with the OP, why did TSW drop to B2P $15 so fast?  I've gotten some good answers here.

By the way, I enjoy puzzles and horror, I just didn't enjoy the feel of the game itself.  You can't make a good game on good ideas alone.  If it's not fun, it'll tank.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

4/30/13 2:44:03 PM#25
Originally posted by Calerxes

 

Some posters have to learn to differentiate between a market without games they like and a failed market the two are completely different. For posters who constantly infer their intelligence they sure lack common sense.

Right on. MMO is a growing market with 12B of revenue in 2012.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

 

  Sulaa

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/11
Posts: 1156

4/30/13 3:14:12 PM#26
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

By the developers' own words in an interview a while back they mentioned something about trying something new.  Which I took to mean as both the puzzle and horror parts of their game being outside players' comfort.

The core MMORPG group (myself included) ate it up, of course, but you need a wider audience than that to really create a smash hit.

That said, I think it's probably overly harsh to imply it "failed so hard".  They're still going, and the price point is simply adaptation.  As another recent thread points out, market saturation is also a factor.

Guess I am not 'core' group then.  I am also a member of a small forum that theoretically focuses on mmorpg's with around 30 regulars and around 20-30 more sporadic members. It consist of 'old timers' remembering UO and members that came up with later and even relatively recent games.   2 members played this game only after release (much more checked beta ofc), then few more bought it for 15$ on amazon sale few months ago.   As far as I know - 1 person played few months and those other few that gave game a shot played only between few days and few weeks.

Most people that played - were not agreeing with Funcom opinion about 'trying too much new'.   They described it as story-focused linear themepark with preety standard instanced end-game.  Some even said that it resembled single player adventure game just with some apparent mmorpg mechanics showing every now and then.  Others compared it to Swtor.

I am one of those that snagged very cheap copy months ago - and I would say that 'too much new' is not problem either.  Anyone who had been playing themeparks in last 3-4 years will have no problem in finding himself in this game.  So I don't think 'innovation' is what killed this game as there is not much innovation there aside of incorporating even stronger single player approach to levelling.

 

'Failed so hard' - everyone has their own measure what that mean, but since game was not even remotely close to their lower scenario target sales and subsciptions,  CEO of Funcom left company 1 day before TSW release and is facing insider trade investigation, Funcom fired most of their workers and is undergoing heavy restructurizaion,  was unable to repay debt (in talks with debt owners), it's stock lost over 90% in last year (crashed soon after TSW release) and finally company is looking to sale itself / investor - then I would assume that it failed hard.

  Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 8399

4/30/13 7:41:30 PM#27
Originally posted by Sulaa

Guess I am not 'core' group then.  I am also a member of a small forum that theoretically focuses on mmorpg's with around 30 regulars and around 20-30 more sporadic members. It consist of 'old timers' remembering UO and members that came up with later and even relatively recent games.   2 members played this game only after release (much more checked beta ofc), then few more bought it for 15$ on amazon sale few months ago.   As far as I know - 1 person played few months and those other few that gave game a shot played only between few days and few weeks.

Most people that played - were not agreeing with Funcom opinion about 'trying too much new'.   They described it as story-focused linear themepark with preety standard instanced end-game.  Some even said that it resembled single player adventure game just with some apparent mmorpg mechanics showing every now and then.  Others compared it to Swtor.

I am one of those that snagged very cheap copy months ago - and I would say that 'too much new' is not problem either.  Anyone who had been playing themeparks in last 3-4 years will have no problem in finding himself in this game.  So I don't think 'innovation' is what killed this game as there is not much innovation there aside of incorporating even stronger single player approach to levelling.

 

'Failed so hard' - everyone has their own measure what that mean, but since game was not even remotely close to their lower scenario target sales and subsciptions,  CEO of Funcom left company 1 day before TSW release and is facing insider trade investigation, Funcom fired most of their workers and is undergoing heavy restructurizaion,  was unable to repay debt (in talks with debt owners), it's stock lost over 90% in last year (crashed soon after TSW release) and finally company is looking to sale itself / investor - then I would assume that it failed hard.

I hadn't followed along, so it sounds like it was indeed a hard failure.

As for trying too much new, "most people that played" is the key point!  Most people who play a Barbie Dress-Up videogame don't complain they're playing a Barbie Dress-Up game.  Because the only people buying Barbie games are people who want to play Barbie games.  And in this case, the number of people who wanted to play a modern horror MMORPG wasn't particularly high.

"Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

4/30/13 8:04:59 PM#28
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

Terrible combat

Well, yeah.  That's the main reason I didn't keep playing.  The tone of the game was fine with me, I love horror games (unless they scar me for life).

@Axehilt.  if a Barbie MMO comes out, you'll play it with me?

  DavisFlight

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2604

4/30/13 8:10:33 PM#29
Originally posted by Scalpless

TSW failed because of insufficient marketing and many other reasons, but I don't see how you could link its failure to greed or plagiarism, because it obviously had neither.

It failed because it was made by a designer that wanted it to be a singleplayer game. A designer that had only ever made singleplayer games. Funcom pushed him to make the game an MMO to try to make some extra subscription bucks after the hole in their company left by Age of Conan.

Singleplayer games with monthly fees DO NOT DO WELL. See: SWTOR.

 

The game failed because of its design. Not lack of advertising. It was on every website and in several magazines and stores for months before it launched. It just wasn't a good MMO.

  Vidir

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 971

4/30/13 8:18:23 PM#30
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.

This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.

They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.

Well done.

 

 

This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.

TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.

Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.

 

 

 

 

Game creators will do what ever they think vill bring in the most money for them. subscription games today are few and not overpopulatet. That is the reason for the canges, we comsumers want thos changes.

  duggyfr3sh123

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/13
Posts: 102

4/30/13 8:21:23 PM#31
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

buggy as hell, consistent with funcom's reputation. gameplay and animation quality very, very poor for the time it came out.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5232

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/30/13 8:24:57 PM#32
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Scalpless

TSW failed because of insufficient marketing and many other reasons, but I don't see how you could link its failure to greed or plagiarism, because it obviously had neither.

It failed because it was made by a designer that wanted it to be a singleplayer game. A designer that had only ever made singleplayer games. Funcom pushed him to make the game an MMO to try to make some extra subscription bucks after the hole in their company left by Age of Conan.

Singleplayer games with monthly fees DO NOT DO WELL. See: SWTOR.

 

The game failed because of its design. Not lack of advertising. It was on every website and in several magazines and stores for months before it launched. It just wasn't a good MMO.

 WoW.  I think this may be the first post from DavisFlight that I actually agree with.

To me SwTor wasn't a bad game, it just wasn't a good MMO.  It wasn't different enough from what I'd allready played and left to keep me around and had nothing to make me want to pay more for it than I allready did.

I came back to with my brother maybe hmm 6 monthsish ago.  Again played for a month but didn't see the point of continuing. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  DavisFlight

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2604

4/30/13 8:27:01 PM#33
Originally posted by Vidir
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You can now buy The Secret World for 15$ , this is aproximately same as one month subscription we used to pay for MMOs almost year ago.

This is where MMO companies had led themselves by constant failure to listen to the players and instead insist on greed and plagiarism.

They wanted to make big bucks like WoW , but instead sell the whole game for one subscription.

Well done.

 

 

This tread is not against TSW, but against all the industry and its failure.

TSW itself is a great game. Probably would be quite sucessful MMO if it came before people started to be fed with all the themepark bull. People just dont want that , never did.

Whole point of MMO is to be a virtual world we can influence and change. Not singleplayer game with other people in it.

 

 

 

 

Game creators will do what ever they think vill bring in the most money for them.

Except as we've seen, what publishers think will sell has NOT been what's actually sold, hence the failure of almost every AAA MMORPG since 2004.  They won't do what we actually want.

  niceguy3978

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 2030

4/30/13 8:29:58 PM#34
Originally posted by Lobotomist
Originally posted by Eir_S
What did TSW do that made it fail so hard?

TSW is excellent game. This tread is about MMOs in general.

 

Well, if the game were still selling well, it would still have a higher price and a sub.  But as it didn't do as well as they thought it would they dropped the sub and lowered the overall box price.  They can only charge what people will pay.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 5286

4/30/13 8:36:21 PM#35
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Hmm of couse the other side of the argument is maybe they did listen to players.

Players have been screaming about making games free.

They have been screaming about making things easier, more casual, quicker to get into, quick to get groups.

TSW delivered that in spades.

IMO the lesson really is.  Don't listen to what your players tell you haha.

This ^.

It's easy to point to flaws in a game that has been released, and say 'If these stupid devs would've just listened to us (meaning me) they would be in a much better position". However, what that perspective ignores is the fact that there are now millions of 'me's, all with differing opinions. Many people here would agree that a game like CoD is a lazy, uninspired, piece of crap game. So then why does it still sell record numbers?

I know it's not a popular view, but at a certain point we as gamers need to turn that criticism on ourselves and ask 'what are we doing to contribute to this climate'? How many of us have supported crappy games? How many continue to support crappy games? (defiance anyone?). Even more important, what's the last game you didn't like, but were okay with others liking it? This seems like an issue mostly limited to MMOs. How come in this genre we can't accept that people like different things? That not every new MMO has to cater specifically to your each & every needs (and can't).

Heck one of the most praised games on this site (SWG) was ruined, BECAUSE they listened to their players. This doesn't mean they listened to all their players, but rather they listened to the wrong ones. And that's a mistake you don't often get to make twice. Many devs are trying to give us what we want. However that needs to be juggled with what others want, what works with the game, and what's actually achievable.

As they say, hind-sight is always 20/20.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3336

4/30/13 8:42:11 PM#36

So, I paid $60 for Battlefield 3, then $10 for each DLC...but now I can buy all them for $40 since Battlefield 4 is coming out...so Battlefield 3 was a bad game?

 

Just trying to see people's logic here, makes no sense to me...games get old, the price drops because they get old...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

4/30/13 8:55:19 PM#37
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Scalpless

TSW failed because of insufficient marketing and many other reasons, but I don't see how you could link its failure to greed or plagiarism, because it obviously had neither.

It failed because it was made by a designer that wanted it to be a singleplayer game. A designer that had only ever made singleplayer games. Funcom pushed him to make the game an MMO to try to make some extra subscription bucks after the hole in their company left by Age of Conan.

Singleplayer games with monthly fees DO NOT DO WELL. See: SWTOR.

 

The game failed because of its design. Not lack of advertising. It was on every website and in several magazines and stores for months before it launched. It just wasn't a good MMO.

So they fix it by selling it B2P. People should be happy about it. Buy it as a SP game, and play it as such.

I don't really care if it is a good MMO. The question is whether it is a good game.

  niceguy3978

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 2030

4/30/13 9:01:38 PM#38
Originally posted by Gravarg

So, I paid $60 for Battlefield 3, then $10 for each DLC...but now I can buy all them for $40 since Battlefield 4 is coming out...so Battlefield 3 was a bad game?

 

Just trying to see people's logic here, makes no sense to me...games get old, the price drops because they get old...

No, that doesn't make it a bad game.  I don't think TSW is a bad game either.  What I'm saying is, is (ugh I hate using two words next to each other like that) the reason the game is cheaper now is becuase it isn't as popular is it was (which is the trajectory of most games.  I am also saying that if it were more popular, it would charge a higher price.  Supply and demand is the same for games as everything else.  They will charge what they think will get them the most money.  Same reason why mmos rarely (possibly never?) ship with a trial, other than possibly a buddy key system, they don't need to.  

  reeereee

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 1099

4/30/13 9:04:33 PM#39
I never gave TSW a fair shake because I couldn't make it past character creation.
  DavisFlight

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2604

4/30/13 11:14:38 PM#40
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Scalpless

TSW failed because of insufficient marketing and many other reasons, but I don't see how you could link its failure to greed or plagiarism, because it obviously had neither.

It failed because it was made by a designer that wanted it to be a singleplayer game. A designer that had only ever made singleplayer games. Funcom pushed him to make the game an MMO to try to make some extra subscription bucks after the hole in their company left by Age of Conan.

Singleplayer games with monthly fees DO NOT DO WELL. See: SWTOR.

 

The game failed because of its design. Not lack of advertising. It was on every website and in several magazines and stores for months before it launched. It just wasn't a good MMO.

So they fix it by selling it B2P. People should be happy about it. Buy it as a SP game, and play it as such.

I don't really care if it is a good MMO. The question is whether it is a good game.

Sell it as buy to play, and don't pretend its an MMO and then they're all set.

However, all their marketing went into pretending it was an MMO. And honestly, it would have been a hundred times better has a singleplayer/coop game. That way the plot  could actually impact the world, and not be dragged out to get longer subs.

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