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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Elder Scrolls Online: F2P or P2P? Keeping Hush on the Business Model

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136 posts found
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5854

4/30/13 12:08:21 PM#41
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Quizzical
Why would anyone pay a subscription for a game they like when there are a lot of games that you can play for free if you're willing to be crippled enough that you won't like them?  The question nearly answers itself.

 QFT!

I rather pay 15 dollars a month and have unlimited access to the game and enjoy a game that is not deliberately crippled to force people into the Cash Shop!

F2P games are the plague! Litterly!  Nothing is FREE! People really need to get over that idea and that in the end you end up spending more money in F2P games, then in Subscription based games. Period!

I've never spent more money in sub-free games.  I've spent over $300 on Rift over the last 2 years.  I've spent $30 on STO, $30 on TSW, $60 or $70 on GW2.  In sub games you spend a minimum of approximately $150 - $230 per year for rented access.  Even if I spent $300 per year on a F2P game I would at least be able to play it anytime without have to fork over more cash.

And please, P2P games are just as crippled with time sinks to keep you subbing for longer - raid locks, dungeon locks, daily reward caps, etc.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Shaigh

Elite Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 294

4/30/13 12:13:42 PM#42
Don't make a shallow game that people will be finished with within a month
  furbans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 927

4/30/13 12:16:44 PM#43
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Quizzical
Why would anyone pay a subscription for a game they like when there are a lot of games that you can play for free if you're willing to be crippled enough that you won't like them?  The question nearly answers itself.

 QFT!

I rather pay 15 dollars a month and have unlimited access to the game and enjoy a game that is not deliberately crippled to force people into the Cash Shop!

F2P games are the plague! Litterly!  Nothing is FREE! People really need to get over that idea and that in the end you end up spending more money in F2P games, then in Subscription based games. Period!

I've never spent more money in sub-free games.  I've spent over $300 on Rift over the last 2 years.  I've spent $30 on STO, $30 on TSW, $60 or $70 on GW2.  In sub games you spend a minimum of approximately $150 - $230 per year for rented access.  Even if I spent $300 per year on a F2P game I would at least be able to play it anytime without have to fork over more cash.

And please, P2P games are just as crippled with time sinks to keep you subbing for longer - raid locks, dungeon locks, daily reward caps, etc.

But P2P games are way more significantly better quality.  F2P games is your cheap budgeted B movies that went straight to DVD while P2P games are the movies you would go see at the theateres. 

  boxsnd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 409

4/30/13 12:26:49 PM#44

Here is a list of P2P MMOs that released after 2004 and were successful:

1: -

 

 

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5854

4/30/13 12:33:53 PM#45
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Quizzical
Why would anyone pay a subscription for a game they like when there are a lot of games that you can play for free if you're willing to be crippled enough that you won't like them?  The question nearly answers itself.

 QFT!

I rather pay 15 dollars a month and have unlimited access to the game and enjoy a game that is not deliberately crippled to force people into the Cash Shop!

F2P games are the plague! Litterly!  Nothing is FREE! People really need to get over that idea and that in the end you end up spending more money in F2P games, then in Subscription based games. Period!

I've never spent more money in sub-free games.  I've spent over $300 on Rift over the last 2 years.  I've spent $30 on STO, $30 on TSW, $60 or $70 on GW2.  In sub games you spend a minimum of approximately $150 - $230 per year for rented access.  Even if I spent $300 per year on a F2P game I would at least be able to play it anytime without have to fork over more cash.

And please, P2P games are just as crippled with time sinks to keep you subbing for longer - raid locks, dungeon locks, daily reward caps, etc.

But P2P games are way more significantly better quality.  F2P games is your cheap budgeted B movies that went straight to DVD while P2P games are the movies you would go see at the theateres. 

Rift, EVE, and WoW are all good games, but aren't better to me than my sub-free options.  You can run around shouting second rate all you want but it isn't true.  There are plenty of people that like sub-free games as much or more.  GW2 is considered a better game than Rift by some people and is far more successful.

A payment model doesn't make a game better and that's true for any game and any payment model.  TOR wasn't better because it was sub-locked.  It's not better now that it's sub-free.  It's the same regardless of the payment model.

Budget, team experience, and creativity are what make good games.  How they're monetized afterwards has nothing to do with the quality.  When ESO comes out it will be good, bad, or somewhere in the middle regardless of its payment model.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17290

4/30/13 12:35:38 PM#46
Originally posted by dgarbini
Originally posted by furbans

Name one "quality" F2P MMO.

F2P games I have enjoyed: AOC, TERA, DDO, COH, EQ2, AO, Vindictus, Second Life, Vanguard, probably a couple more around that I'm not remembering.

 

My personal guess would be B2P, anything subscription in this economy with this competition will die before it releases.  Even if it was amazing I doubt most people would even look at it.  Personally I would be ok with a sub for a super amazing game.

Except the argument there would be that most of those games started a p2p.

I think he's referring to games that started as f2p.

And if he isn't then his argument isn't valid based on your examples.

  Hellidol

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 378

4/30/13 12:48:18 PM#47
Originally posted by Quizzical
Why would anyone pay a subscription for a game they like when there are a lot of games that you can play for free if you're willing to be crippled enough that you won't like them?  The question nearly answers itself.

F2P is some really saving any money tbh. If you pay $15.00 a month for a game you get everything you want, you log on and play. in F2P you log on and get restricked and temped to buy silly in game items, most people end up paying $40-100 on average. The ones that dont end up paying are also those they buy the game for $59.99 and quit in a few weeks, so money is even made off them but they are not using server space.

 

For all those that say I never spend any money on F2P models games you are straight up lieing about that period or you are a very casual player and might play 2 hours every other day.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5854

4/30/13 12:50:35 PM#48
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by dgarbini
Originally posted by furbans

Name one "quality" F2P MMO.

F2P games I have enjoyed: AOC, TERA, DDO, COH, EQ2, AO, Vindictus, Second Life, Vanguard, probably a couple more around that I'm not remembering.

My personal guess would be B2P, anything subscription in this economy with this competition will die before it releases.  Even if it was amazing I doubt most people would even look at it.  Personally I would be ok with a sub for a super amazing game.

Except the argument there would be that most of those games started a p2p.

I think he's referring to games that started as f2p.

And if he isn't then his argument isn't valid based on your examples.

I don't really buy into the "it started p2p" argument.  What does that have to do with the quality?  The production budget and the team make it quality.  You could probably make an argument that publishers were only willing to fund a AAA budget for the established revenue model due to comfort with what it can deliver.  That was shortsighted on their part because it hasn't panned out well for them.

Most AAA games released recently started several years ago when p2p was the primary revenue paradigm.  AAA games have big budgets regardles of their payement model.

In this discussion, in Mike's column, he doesn't distinguish between b2p and f2p - just sub-locked and sub-free.  GW2 is a perfect example of a good game that isn't sub-locked and was developed that way.  Neverwinter is a quality sub-free mmo.  Allods has been f2p in Russia and they are offering a sub-locked server which shows that the revenue model can move both ways with a little adjustment.  These games will become more prevalent as time passes and newer mmo releases are developed with regards to the shifting climate.

With competition increasing I think we'll see a more dramatic evolution of the revenue models.  Traditional f2p and p2p concepts are outdated and we're going to see new innovative variations and options like Tera.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Raazle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/13
Posts: 7

4/30/13 1:11:35 PM#49

I don't get this article.... Basing your opinion off the "next genre" of games is a pretty lame idea when its not working (SWTOR sucked and didn't deserve a paid subscription). If you really want to see how those Microtransaction F2P games are going, actually go and play them. Most suck and have terrible extended content that is boring after a few days of playing them (Guild Wars 2).

 

Most subscription based MMO's I have played, I play for years. 

  mistmaker

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/12
Posts: 229

4/30/13 1:14:45 PM#50

honestly, i dont care. 

 

The only good f2p game i know is aoc because you almost have no restrictions to lv 80.

 

so f2p == f2p

 

you cant just put all f2p in on hat. swtor f2p is the best or worst example. compare aoc with swtor f2p.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2045

4/30/13 1:15:25 PM#51
Originally posted by danwest58

Because F2P games suck and get little development when they are F2P.  Look at DDO and LOTRO, it takes them forever to get expansions and fixes because they do not have the money to pay developers. 

Lol, right... maybe you should hop over to the LotRO forum and tell your thoughts above in the "New expansion already?!" thread where they complaining that expansions are coming so fast that they don't have enough time to finish everything on T2 :)

  Tokenaru

Novice Member

Joined: 1/26/13
Posts: 61

4/30/13 1:15:27 PM#52
I think the perfect payment model for this is zenimax pays me to play it.
  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1928

May the game be ever in your favor.

4/30/13 1:16:39 PM#53

I'm sorry Michael, but this article isn't very well written in certain areas. It's very obvious from the get-go that you're biased against subscription games so this is an "opinionated" article right from the start and I've said this before and I'll say it again, I really wish you guys would label your opinion pieces instead of having them out like they're factual information. Your comment "Subscriptions, even in their heyday, were always a losing proposition" made me cringe just because there is no proof behind that statement whatsoever. Another way you could have tried to make this article as unbiased as possible was to mention the fact of how badly SW:TOR was doing because that's honestly the reason why they went to the F2P model. 

 

You're a very good writer otherwise, it's just clear that you let your bias sort of overtake the article. Keep up the good work!

Smile

  Leiloni

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 353

4/30/13 1:19:16 PM#54

I couldn't care less what payment model any game uses. If a game is good I'll play it, if it isn't I won't.

 

And it's definitely a double edged sword because with a F2P game, I'm much more likely to give it a try even if I'm unsure if I'll like it because there's no cost for entry, however P2P games I usually end up spending less in the long run. Although with P2P games once I stop I'm less likely to start back up again because the need to pay $15 when I'm not even sure how long I'll be back for is a bit of a deterrent. I think a P2P game with a good free trial for both new and returning players would be a good way to go. Make it free up to level 20 for 7 days for new players and free for 7 days at any level for returning players. I'd be happy to pay for any game that gave me that flexibility.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17290

4/30/13 1:21:02 PM#55
Originally posted by Torvaldr
 

I don't really buy into the "it started p2p" argument.  What does that have to do with the quality?  The production budget and the team make it quality.  You could probably make an argument that publishers were only willing to fund a AAA budget for the established revenue model due to comfort with what it can deliver.  That was shortsighted on their part because it hasn't panned out well for them.

As I mentioned, I believe that was his argument.

If you compare f2p games up to the point that p2p games started going f2p there is clearly a difference. p2p games were better.

Obviously, now that publishers/developers have seen that they can make more money f2p, developers/publishers don't necessarily have issues with putting more money into a quality game.

  Nasa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/21/04
Posts: 321

4/30/13 1:35:47 PM#56

There must be something wrong with me.

I have enjoyed a lot of F2P MMO's without spending any mony. This should not be posible.

Should I go visit a doctor?

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

4/30/13 1:54:09 PM#57

TOR's problems had nothing to do with it's chosen payment model. It had to do with spending an INSANE amount of money to build a game that only a few people wanted to play for more then a couple of months.

If a game is realistic and disciplined about it's budget and engaging enough that players actualy WANT to play it over the long haul then it's payment model is pretty much irrelevent. Until the industry execs and talking heads get that straight in thier heads, nothing will change.

Contending that the payment model will make or break your game is the equivalent of saying that the flavor of the mints you leave on the pillow is what determines whether your hotel will be successful.

I'm going to be brutaly honest. The reason why so many MMO's have been floundering of late is because Developers just haven't been making very many good games lately, certainly not ones that have held peoples attention over the long term. The Development executives have been about as bad as Congress with fisicaly responsible budgets and sound management practices. Add to that the big publishers have been shooting themselves in the foot by essentialy treating thier customers like dirt and then lying to them pretty much every time thier lips are moving..... and a blind man could see what has been happening.

Make a good product. Be competent managing your production and budgets..... and treat your customers honestly and respectfully and you could pretty much throw a dart to chose your payment model.

It's the fundementals the industry hasn't been succeeding on....not chasing after trends created by thier own marketing spin-meisters.

 

  bazinga

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 31

4/30/13 2:07:15 PM#58
Originally posted by boxsnd

Here is a list of P2P MMOs that released after 2004 and were successful:

1: -

 

 Well said XD
 
 
 
  c0exist

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 187

4/30/13 2:11:45 PM#59
Maybe I am in the minority here but I hope its P2P.  
  purewitz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/24/06
Posts: 476

4/30/13 2:25:22 PM#60
I see ESO going down the same road as SWTOR, LOTRO, STO, DCUO, DDO, and others. A year or so with P2P and then a F2P switch or they might even go with GW2's B2P. There are only two games really holding on to P2P. EVE and WOW and I don't see them lasting too much longer without a F2P switch, but both Blizzard and CCP have other F2P and B2P projects out or coming soon. So I think EVE and WOW will just die P2P. Although I think F2P or B2P sequels for both games are coming in the future.
 

When we get back from where we are going, we will return to where we were. I know people there!

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