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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do you like "cookie cutter" builds in MMO?

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  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1796

4/26/13 7:37:22 PM#61
Originally posted by k11keeper

I think most of you that are so against optimal builds don't understand one thing. When it comes down to do it these are games and there is math behind the system. When said math is figured out people use spreadsheets, parses, and other tools to figure out the most optimal setup possible. Sure you can go ahead and be a unique snowflake all you want and give all kinds of BS reasons for it but I can use hard evidence to prove my build being optimal.

 

If you only play video games to win, optimal builds are fine but if you only play video games, by your own definition being nothing more than matha-ma-warrior number crunching, to win, can you really call it 'winning'? Who needs graphics? Who needs content? My 5 beats your 4. Spam 5 until someone shows me a 6, figure out where he got the 6 and spam 6. I've never had a driven need to be part of any I-Win gang. They ruin games for me. It's why I have come to dispise "pvp-centric" games. There are too many I-Winners. If winning was that important to me, the last thing I would be doing is wasting 4 hrs of my life daily playing video games.

  tazarconan

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 1022

4/26/13 7:56:02 PM#62
Originally posted by Emrendil
Originally posted by tazarconan
The best way to play, is through a system that there is no such thing as best build clear. Every build u make should have strong points and weaknesses.Players should be experimenting with builds to determine what sort of build suits their playstyle better and they should be free to choose so. Jack of all trades,busrt dmg,dps,better survivalability etc etc

Well, a lot of mmos are not like that.

I know.Especially the brand names that ruled the industry  the last years. One of the reasons maybe that the majority of ppl are dissapointed with mmos lately?

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 485

4/26/13 8:50:40 PM#63

 Lets just get one thing straight.. I might have missed this point, myself, earlier. But CC builds are not the same as FOTM builds.

 CC builds are what you get when you do a little math and see how you best spend your points to do one thing or several things    in some cases, so you get the most for your points. 

 Some of those builds get to be so popular that everyone uses them. Or they are so obvious that everyone just picks them by default.. Those are FOTM builds.. They are prone to being countered. Or if they are really hard to counter, (and even if they are not, but people dont want to adapt.) then they are prone to nerfing or "balancing". 

 Im sorry to put it this bluntly. But you would have to be exceptionally dense or willfully obstinate, if you either dont hit upon the build on your own or if you can ignore other peoples comments about builds and unsee the builds that are listed when you go and read about the abilities of your character in detail. I mean do you just randomize your skill points?

 Or are we talking about more than skills here?. Is it items too?..  Ok if simple to get the same gear then you will be back at the same issue.. Why intentionally go with something that is not optimal?

 

 No I dont particularly like CC builds.. I dont hate them either.. It just makes sense to build characters a certain way and not waste points on something you dont use. 

 I absolutly detest FOTM builds.. I might try them out sometimes, or I might already be on that build. But I rarely switch builds when everyone else does. I play the way I like and I will only switch my build when I want to change my play style. Maybe I just got this sweeeeeeeet 2h sword and its just perfect for another build. So Ill try that out for a bit... But I will be using a CC build or I will have made one of my own, if noone else thought of it first, before long.

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 485

4/26/13 9:08:05 PM#64
Originally posted by free2play
Originally posted by k11keeper

I think most of you that are so against optimal builds don't understand one thing. When it comes down to do it these are games and there is math behind the system. When said math is figured out people use spreadsheets, parses, and other tools to figure out the most optimal setup possible. Sure you can go ahead and be a unique snowflake all you want and give all kinds of BS reasons for it but I can use hard evidence to prove my build being optimal.

 

If you only play video games to win, optimal builds are fine but if you only play video games, by your own definition being nothing more than matha-ma-warrior number crunching, to win, can you really call it 'winning'? Who needs graphics? Who needs content? My 5 beats your 4. Spam 5 until someone shows me a 6, figure out where he got the 6 and spam 6. I've never had a driven need to be part of any I-Win gang. They ruin games for me. It's why I have come to dispise "pvp-centric" games. There are too many I-Winners. If winning was that important to me, the last thing I would be doing is wasting 4 hrs of my life daily playing video games.

 It is the same with PvE though.. My 5 beats your 4 for keeping the tank alive or killing bosses faster.

 Spam 5 until boss does X then spam 3 six times and then back to 5 rinse and repeat until boss is dead.

 It is fairly simple.. a macro could do it.. and they do.. 

 Only way to keep it obscure is to add lots of options, and even that is going to get solved eventually... but you would still have more variety, I think. Atleast if the some of the options had something going for them.. 

 

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 485

4/26/13 9:34:34 PM#65
Originally posted by tazarconan
Originally posted by Emrendil
Originally posted by tazarconan
The best way to play, is through a system that there is no such thing as best build clear. Every build u make should have strong points and weaknesses.Players should be experimenting with builds to determine what sort of build suits their playstyle better and they should be free to choose so. Jack of all trades,busrt dmg,dps,better survivalability etc etc

Well, a lot of mmos are not like that.

I know.Especially the brand names that ruled the industry  the last years. One of the reasons maybe that the majority of ppl are dissapointed with mmos lately?

 I have to say that it should take a long time for your character to reach max level (+master levels or AAs or whatever) . And it should be hard to find good gear and what you do find is of a great variety.  

 Then you will have people making builds from necesity that fits what they have. They might save up all their cash to buy a weapon that suits how they want to play rather than having it dictated by drops..

 Hell in fact lets have randomized stats and quirks.. Then we can roleplay something we didnt pick.. 

 But would we still put skill points into what was optimal for our character?.. I think we would.. 

 Im not seeing anyone explain what exactly their problem with CCs are.. Is it that almost everyone builds the same way.. Well that is because everyone is trying to do the exact same thing. 

 Or is it that you get shit from other players for showing up for PvP or Raiding in you miss matched gear or with your homegrown solo/jackofalltrades (or ooh look a skillpoint, that skill sounds fun) spec. Well either your spec is shit and you should know better... or it is "The Shit" and you just need to hang with a better crowd of people and show everyone else how its really done... 

 I mean Ive taken heat for taking my solo cave magic specced shammy to RvR in WoW.. "Where is our End 4 why do you buff with End 3? Now we cant permasprint" I could have said: "Well where is you Long Wind 2?" And indeed some people had that, but I would have to prearrange the group. 

 So I either had to wait for a rare group, respec, play one of my other shammies or a different class, see if I could get a filler spot, or go and solo either in PvP or PvE.. 

 Now I made that build myself.. but while looking at a build for my other shaman.. I saw that someone had come up with the exact same build.. So apparantly even CC builds get left out in the cold.. 

 

  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 202

4/27/13 6:50:26 AM#66
Originally posted by nariusseldon
No. I prefer games that have multiple combat builds, and variations.

^^^ This, even if it take too long to master them all.

  arrgy

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/17/08
Posts: 89

4/27/13 9:18:21 AM#67

What's funny is that Turbine takes the exact opposite apporaches to two of its games: LOTRO and DDO.

LOTRO is so cookie cutter when it first came out that is was laughable. Even with the skill trees they put in a few years back, it is still cookie cutter. Turbine acknowledged this and decided to revamp the class again at the end of the year. You make a guard, and its going to be a tank pretty much for the entire game, not to say you can't fill a DPS role but lets face it you aren't going to cast a spell.

However at the other end of the spectrum they have DDO. DDO is so open ended and so builder intensive with so many options its staggering. Unless it is restricted by alignment, almost any class can do anything in that game. You control your opening stats, the classes you pick and the feats, skills, etc. That game is a race to see the flavor of the month build.  The best archers used to be Rangers, then depwood rangers, then fighters, then we started mixing monks into it,  heck I saw good bard and cleric archers, now its artificers or whatever.

Personally I hate the cookie cutter build. The more diversity the better the game.

  Ekaros

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 365

4/27/13 3:19:46 PM#68
Originally posted by arrgy

What's funny is that Turbine takes the exact opposite apporaches to two of its games: LOTRO and DDO.

LOTRO is so cookie cutter when it first came out that is was laughable. Even with the skill trees they put in a few years back, it is still cookie cutter. Turbine acknowledged this and decided to revamp the class again at the end of the year. You make a guard, and its going to be a tank pretty much for the entire game, not to say you can't fill a DPS role but lets face it you aren't going to cast a spell.

However at the other end of the spectrum they have DDO. DDO is so open ended and so builder intensive with so many options its staggering. Unless it is restricted by alignment, almost any class can do anything in that game. You control your opening stats, the classes you pick and the feats, skills, etc. That game is a race to see the flavor of the month build.  The best archers used to be Rangers, then depwood rangers, then fighters, then we started mixing monks into it,  heck I saw good bard and cleric archers, now its artificers or whatever.

Personally I hate the cookie cutter build. The more diversity the better the game.

I also believe that problem is simplicity of some modern MMOs...

 

Either provide such large amount of options that it takes long time to reach the optimal build. Or provide item variety, or make items variable as such that getting all items for single setup is relatively hard. I prefer more complex systems, where people have to make due with what they got. Eventually people will end in cookie cutter setups, but this might be circumvented by having different stats on same items, such as few items are the same...

 

This of course don't work really well with current day trends of tiered gear etc...

Ekaros Xfire Miniprofile
  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1073

4/27/13 5:10:25 PM#69

Nope, not that interested in cookie cutter builds.  Mostly, I do concept builds...mostly.  Don't care if other folks want to go there though, and the minimaxers provide a service of sorts by fine tuning things.  That drive to eke out the last 3% of damage/etc is just too much hassle for me.  Hell, I often try to find out what's considered the worst thing to play, and see if I can find a way to make it even vaguely viable.  Fun is different things to different people.

 

The thing I really don't care for is gating for type or gear score, etc.   Just not a team I am going to get along well with.  I would prefer someone with a good sense of humor who was a complete incompetant newbie to an uptight gearhead, no matter how competant. 

 

I also prefer games that have flexible enough systems to allow most combos of characters to do most content.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Emrendil

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 200

 
OP  4/27/13 5:11:41 PM#70
Originally posted by arrgy

What's funny is that Turbine takes the exact opposite apporaches to two of its games: LOTRO and DDO.

LOTRO is so cookie cutter when it first came out that is was laughable. Even with the skill trees they put in a few years back, it is still cookie cutter. Turbine acknowledged this and decided to revamp the class again at the end of the year. You make a guard, and its going to be a tank pretty much for the entire game, not to say you can't fill a DPS role but lets face it you aren't going to cast a spell.

However at the other end of the spectrum they have DDO. DDO is so open ended and so builder intensive with so many options its staggering. Unless it is restricted by alignment, almost any class can do anything in that game. You control your opening stats, the classes you pick and the feats, skills, etc. That game is a race to see the flavor of the month build.  The best archers used to be Rangers, then depwood rangers, then fighters, then we started mixing monks into it,  heck I saw good bard and cleric archers, now its artificers or whatever.

Personally I hate the cookie cutter build. The more diversity the better the game.

Hm, I played DDO 2 years ago, but for really short period of time. Maybe I should try it again.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

4/27/13 8:19:16 PM#71
Originally posted by znaiika
Originally posted by nariusseldon
No. I prefer games that have multiple combat builds, and variations.

^^^ This, even if it take too long to master them all.

You don't really need to master them all to have fun.

If i am sick of one build, it is good to know there is another to try.

I also prefer games with zero respec cost, so i can experiement. That is half of the fun.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

4/28/13 1:43:36 AM#72
Originally posted by Emrendil
I was just wondering, do you like "cookie cutter" builds in MMO? Or would you like to see more diversity?

 

Always more diversity.  In fact I wish more MMOs had classes for those that like archetypes but also had an open ended route for those that wanted to build something specialized.  I honestly don't see the point of cookie cutter builds in any MMO based on numerical progression.  Just show the different "roles" available for my class and automatically populate the skills so I don't have to spend time on a forum figuring the same thing out.

  Emrendil

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 200

 
OP  4/28/13 6:30:13 AM#73
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by znaiika
Originally posted by nariusseldon
No. I prefer games that have multiple combat builds, and variations.

^^^ This, even if it take too long to master them all.

You don't really need to master them all to have fun.

If i am sick of one build, it is good to know there is another to try.

I also prefer games with zero respec cost, so i can experiement. That is half of the fun.

It was pretty cool in Rift where you could have multiple roles and switch between them.

  Consuetudo

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/12
Posts: 102

4/28/13 8:32:03 PM#74

A person wanting there to exist a "best build" will actually invest his talent points into those options which he actually deems to be the best, and, if through comparison, he finds that perhaps other ways might be better, he would then actually change his build to reflect that, and keep repeating this process until he is largely settled. And when he's reached this point, he will be firmly of the opinion that his build is correct -- and I say all of this within the framework of a non-cookie cutter system. 

 

But for the person who does not want a cookie cutter system, but is forced to exist within one: for such a person, there is no way to feel unique while viable in their experimentations, because their attempts to be different can only ever be considered objectively inferior. All the people seeking a single best build will be content, and they will view with a strange disdain that person who tries things differently. 

 

Therefore, we notice it is possible for both the person seeking singular bests as well as the person not seeking such to be able to both be content in a non cookie cutter system, whereas only the person seeking singular bests can be content within the opposite. 

 

It is clear that the best system for everyone is one in which there are no cookie cutter builds. 

  Emrendil

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 200

 
OP  4/29/13 1:53:41 AM#75
So for non "cookie cutter" builds, whick mmos would you guys recommend? If there are any at all?
  Adamantine

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3316

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

4/29/13 4:12:54 AM#76
Originally posted by Kurush

I guess I should clarify.  Yes, tons of people use "cookie cutter" builds.  In some games, almost every competent player of a given class is running around with a minor variation on the same build.

But I don't think people use them because I like them.  I don't believe players get up in the morning and say, "Woohoo!  Another day when I can be like everybody else!"  They usually pick them because they feel forced to.  This is especially true in Holy Trinity-based games.

That was my point.

Thats a result of poor balancing. In a well made game, every choice a player gets actually matters. Thats why I hate skillbased systems and love classbased ones: classbased systems are much easier to rebalance, and classbased systems are much easier to make in a way that different classes are actually playing substantly differently. Skillbased games sometimes introduce the fun of "offering X possible builds", but in reality no they dont.

Thats why you often have LESS actual choices with skillbased, than with classbased.

About your obligatory Trinity-bashing: meh. I dont get this newest fashion that GW2 introduced. Nobody complained about the Trinity before, the majority of complaints about Trinity arent about Trinity but about poorly designed combat, and GW2 itself actually proved that having the Trinity would have been a good idea. Unsurprising for me, apparently surprising for others. So yeah, you wanna bash the Trinity, you'll get nothing but yawning from me.

Just say "Player specialization" instead of Trinity and you might end up realizing what this is about. No player specialization, this means uniformity and lack of choices. THATS what you are demanding. Well congrats, many games are getting better at that.

 

  Ozimandeus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/06
Posts: 79

4/29/13 4:16:59 AM#77

In general, yes.

I find overemphasis on customisation to be a curse rather than a blessing. Much like customising the look of the toon (I never played dolly).

I would rather 'face off' against an opponent who has no benefit over me other than their own wit and intellect. Then if I beat them I know I have truely beaten them using my own wit and intellect.

 

 

  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/30/13 9:46:50 PM#78
Originally posted by Adamantine

Thats a result of poor balancing. In a well made game, every choice a player gets actually matters. Thats why I hate skillbased systems and love classbased ones: classbased systems are much easier to rebalance, and classbased systems are much easier to make in a way that different classes are actually playing substantly differently. Skillbased games sometimes introduce the fun of "offering X possible builds", but in reality no they dont.

Thats why you often have LESS actual choices with skillbased, than with classbased.

About your obligatory Trinity-bashing: meh. I dont get this newest fashion that GW2 introduced. Nobody complained about the Trinity before, the majority of complaints about Trinity arent about Trinity but about poorly designed combat, and GW2 itself actually proved that having the Trinity would have been a good idea. Unsurprising for me, apparently surprising for others. So yeah, you wanna bash the Trinity, you'll get nothing but yawning from me.

Just say "Player specialization" instead of Trinity and you might end up realizing what this is about. No player specialization, this means uniformity and lack of choices. THATS what you are demanding. Well congrats, many games are getting better at that.

so-so

 

Player specialization is not a conjoined nore an opposing factor to 'cookie-cutter builds'.

 

In the case of referencing the holy trinity, it's more to do with how absolute the concept defines a character, pairing down the options and variance achievable to a minimum.

 

You make thew claim that skill based games give you less choices than class based ones, but I'd like to posit a fact.

They're rather frequently based on the same basic mechanics. What you are referring to at best is the flavor with which a character gets wrapped up in. It's more transparent of a fact in skill based games because there's less packaging hiding the mechanics of a character's abilities.

Class based games get away with the illusion of variety by packaging finite sets. They aren't giving you more, the are giving you a rebranded box of the same thing.

What matters is what you passed commentary on briefly in the case of your argument. The back end content that governs the systems.

 

On that end your argument was a loop as you are touting the trinity to support easier balance of abilities, but then extending it at the end to include any form of player personalization.

 

The problem is balance. It's not a matter of class or non-clacc based systems. It's whether or not a game contains strong bias for or against player options, pushing players to take certain common builds, thus becoming 'cookie-cutter'.

 

Ironically enough, choice is the thing being argued for, not sterilization/homogenization. And choice doesn't have to be the enemy.

 

We treat the ability to choose as a problem because we have a roundabout concept of implementation. MAking game content into neat little packages and then trying to rebuild them every time we want to add more variety is a lot of work, but it's only so because of the poor setup and implementation that's common.

 

If we took a step back and remember that all these things operate off the same fundamental mechanics, we can realize that we can break most the game down into components that can be easily assembled by the game itself, instead of making packages that we have to tear apart and build anew every time we wanna tweak something.

 

This is something that's not a nightmare to balance either. You now have universal components that you can adjust for global changes to components that could be considered over or underwhelming. If a certain ability combo is too strong or weak you can create a modifier to anything using them in a combo, that way specific abilities as well as general changes can both take place.

 

Instead of rooting through individual abilities time and again and having to fabricate entirely new sets of data for the exact same functions every time you make a new poer for players to use or attempt to rebalance, you have better control over the entirety of the games abilities all at once.

This means players have the freedom of choice, and the developer has the freedom of balance.

 

Except we don't make things that way, because most people aren't taught that way. And most people aren't creative, they only rationalize and justify the familiar. 

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  VincerKaden

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 460

4/30/13 9:54:36 PM#79

Variety is good. I want to think about what I'm doing with my character, even when I'm not actively playing. I'd say cookie cutter builds are good for new players, but then I remember when I was a new player... and I did alright. Don't insult the intelligence of new players; engage them with a deep and customizable system organized in a slick and intuitive interface. Now you've earned a customer for life.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/01/13 11:12:08 AM#80
Originally posted by Emrendil
So for non "cookie cutter" builds, whick mmos would you guys recommend? If there are any at all?

D3.

Take wiz as an example. There are TWO very popular build (CM & archon) but there are multiple variations within each. For example, you can play perma-archon or hybrid-archon.

And then there are a lot of less popular and gimmick build like disintegration, sleet storm, and even arcane torrent.

In fact, some of the older kiting build is still viable, even not the most efficient.

You can spend months (which i did), playing with optimizing builds & gear (many builds are gear dependent, most good players will have at least a set for CM and a set for archon), which i did.

I also run variation of the build for different situations.

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