Trending Games | ArcheAge | Elder Scrolls Online | World of Warcraft | Guild Wars 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,856,772 Users Online:0
Games:740  Posts:6,241,908
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The purpose of graphics is to enable gameplay--not to replace it.

4 Pages 1 2 3 4 » Search
66 posts found
  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13390

 
OP  4/28/13 9:14:36 PM#1

Alternative thread title:  If the reason that a game is bad is because of graphical choices, then the graphics are bad, regardless of how pretty they are.

Basic thesis of topic:  The way that most people evaluate game graphics is all wrong.

-----

In many situations in game design, there aren't right and wrong answers, but only trade-offs.  That's certainly true of graphics, but not just in the ways that you might immediately think of.  I'd like to argue that, for many people, your opinion of how good a game's graphics are should depend at least as much on whether you agree with the trade-offs that the game designers chose as how pretty the game looks in screenshots.  For example:

You can make screenshots look prettier, or you can make the game load faster.

You want prettier screenshots?  You're going to need more and higher resolution textures.  You're going to need to use textures for more things, including lighting and possibly geometry.  That means more loading stuff off of the hard drive, and that, in turn, means that that you need longer and/or more frequent loading screens.  The extreme case of a seamless world mandates much less loading art assets from the hard drive, and that forces you to give up a lot in how pretty the screenshots look.

You can have prettier looking characters, or you can have the capability to draw more characters simultaneously.

Want to make your characters look prettier?  Well then, you're looking at more textures, higher resolution textures, more vertices, and generally a larger performance hit to draw each character.  The larger the performance hit to draw things, the fewer things you can draw without making performance choke.  Want to have epic battles with 50 characters on your screen at once?  They're not going to look nearly as nice as what you could do if you didn't care whether your engine could draw more than 10 at a time.

You can have prettier looking characters, or you can have more customizable characters.

If you just want to have one character and make that one character look good, that's not so hard to do.  If you want to give players a bunch of choices in each of 30 different areas, some of which are sliders, and you want to make characters look good regardless of what players choose?  Or even just look good for any player choices from a player trying to make a character that looks decent?  That's much, much harder.

You can have prettier looking terrain, or you can see terrain from farther away.

You know those trade-offs with drawing characters?  They apply to terrain as well.

You can have prettier looking screenshots, or you can have a dynamic world with day/night cycles.

If all light sources are going to always and forever going to be the same, then you can precompute a lot of lighting and store it.  If you want to have the sun move in the sky and lighting change accordingly, then you precomputing lighting for when the sun is in one place only works when the sun is in that exact spot.  That doesn't work, which forces you to do much less demanding lighting computations that can be handled on the fly.

You can have prettier looking mobs, or you can have mobs that you can tell apart.

If you have ten completely identical mobs, you can use the same art assets for all of them.  Want to be able to tell them apart rather than fighting indistinguishable masses of mobs?  Then textures or vertex data or uniforms or something is going to have to be different.  That means additional load on the video card per character (probably additional video memory required, certainly GPU time to switch resources), which reduces the amount that you have available per character to draw.

You can have a prettier looking game world, or you can have a game world that players can substantially modify.

Letting players modify things in the game world means you need more flexibility in what you can draw, which restricts your ability to make things look as good as possible.  Things in the game world that players can change are likely to limit your ability to precompute light maps and such.  And there's also the fear that players might do things to make your game world look uglier than what you would have done.

You can have a prettier looking game world, or you can have dynamic weather and seasons.

If you only have to decide what an area looks like once, you can make it look pretty good.  If it needs to be computed dynamically with a whole bunch of different possibilities, making them all look good is much harder.

You can have a prettier game world, or you can have a less repetitive game world.

The more you reuse art assets, the fewer such assets you have to make, and the more you can focus on making each one look good.  Remember how Final Fantasy XIV had the game world repeat a zillion times?  That's just taking this to an extreme in giving you pretty screenshots.

You can have prettier screenshots, or you can have smoother animations.

If you're going to compute each frame of animations manually, then the more frames you have, the less work you can put into each one--and the worse that one will look.  If you're going to generate animations procedurally with smooth functions to ensure that the animations are always smooth, any particular frame is not going to look as nice as it could have if you created each frame manually.

You can have a prettier game, or you can have a game that is faster to download and takes less space to install.

More and higher resolution textures can make a game look better.  They also bloat the game installation size, which makes the game take longer to download.

You can have prettier terrain, or you can have collision detection that closely matches what the terrain looks like.

Some shapes are simply impractical to do for collision detection.  If you want your terrain's graphics to match its collision detection, then you sometimes have to say, I can't do the collision detection for that, so I'm not going to draw it.  That means that the game won't look as good, at least if you ignore screenshots of areas where the collision detection is flagrantly wrong.

-----

I'm sure that there are more examples, but that's all that I could think of off the top of my head, so I'll stop now.  But in every case above, you can make screenshots look better, or you can do something else.  In every one of those cases, I'd lean much more toward the "do something else" than what most AAA games tend to go for.

If you're of the view that prettier screenshots are more important than the "something else" in every case above, then the way you evaluate game graphics fits your preferences.  If so, then this thread isn't for you.  But thanks for reading this far anyway.

But if you want a seamless world, or a dynamic world with changing time of day and seasons, or greater character customization, or the ability for players to modify the game world, or epic battles with many players at once, that means that you want games to sacrifice prettier screenshots for the sake of something else that you think is more important.  If games do exactly that, then you should say that that makes a game's graphics better, not worse, because the game's graphics are more to your liking, even if they don't look as good in screenshots.

Now, trade-offs such as those above are not the only factor in how good a game's graphics are, of course.  Some artists are simply better at what they do than others.  Some programmers are simply more efficient than others.  Some projects simply have a bigger budget than others, and that lets you do more stuff.  Talent and resources play a big role in the quality of a game's graphics, too.

But if you want features that require making a game not look as pretty in screenshots and then a game implements exactly what you want, don't complain that the game isn't pretty enough.  And conversely, if you dislike a game because it left out features that you wanted for the sake of making the game look prettier, don't be quick to praise the graphics that just ruined the game for you.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/28/13 9:21:04 PM#2

I would definitely lean towards the end of the spectrum where the graphics aren't as pretty, but the game play is enhanced when there's a decision that has to be made between the two. Of course, my wife keeps asking me what color to paint the walls, and I have to look at the walls to remind myself what color they are now, because I just don't look at them. They hold the roof up and the wind and rain don't come through them and that's the point I stop thinking about them. A nice screenshot of my walls is pretty useless to me.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  flizzer

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1213

4/28/13 9:21:22 PM#3

I dont find this complicated.  If I dont like the way a game looks (for instance, Wild Star), the game doesnt really matter to me.  Ill be staring at the screen, so the graphics do matter.  It seems to be a truth around here that you need to chose between graphics or gameplay. I say  nonensnse. I expect a good looking game that has great gameplay.  

 

In my opinion, GW2 is a nice marriage of these two:  I like the graphics and I like the gameplay.  I consider WoW a failure in this department.  The gameplay is polished but the graphics are not to my liking and the reason I don't bother with the game.

 

Of course,  opinions differ on this topic. I am no more wrong or right than someone who loves Wow and hates GW2. 

  Thupli

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 408

4/28/13 9:21:50 PM#4

... Until we all have supercomputers and the threshold for good graphics is easy, I agree with you.

 

 

Honestly, I don't have a problem with the graphics from the super NES game Link to the Past.  It is super fun and stylized and the gameplay is so fun it doesn't matter.  Give me an mmo with those graphics that i can mod and has some lore behind it and I am g2g!

  Consuetudo

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/12
Posts: 111

4/28/13 9:48:20 PM#5
This ignores the market, and will inherently lead to niche gaming. Perhaps what made the older MMOs so fantastic was that the graphics were so primitive that element could hardly be a defining factor; now, however, graphics are actually a thing which has substance in the gamer's market. A product would never be able to become big if it didn't take a stab at offering graphics which are as pleasing to look at as the average game. And I believe that should be the focus: a gameplay-dependent thing like an MMO should not strive for graphical innovation, it should merely boast the standard graphics we are used to in the present. Graphics which are so insignificant to the point that they look dated would actually hinder the game's popularity, even if they did offer a great game. The best MMO will be one that offers passable graphics, ones that are neither too demanding nor too primitive, because they should not be an element that either adds to or detracts from an MMO. The person playing an MMO for graphics will undoubtedly be disappointed at having to actually play the game, and will probably stop playing once they leave Tortage; the person playing an MMO to enjoy the game will question how this graphically-primitive offering can be offering anything new given that it looks just like what they were playing 15 years ago, in both of which cases graphics are a distraction from gameplay. 
  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

4/28/13 10:43:32 PM#6

Quizzical you take your filthy logic off of these forums! We don't like your kidn around here!

 

On a serious note the fact of the matter is that your average pleb is too dumb and unimaginative to take advantage of advanced gameplay where as "the shiny" is totally understandable to them. Mainstream media of every kind values flash over substance. Except books I guess, but if you were a reader as a kid you know how much contempt the public holds for books, unless they are romance novels or written at a 3rd grade level.

Gameplay matters to the largest demographic the same way a quality script matters to the movie industry.

You can get a pass on graphics for casual games perhaps because its about icons more than worldscapes.

[mod edit]
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/28/13 11:35:09 PM#7

Well, these tradeoffs are all accurately stated, but they're also stated with a rather heavy bias.  At the end of the day, the player is going to decide whether a game is a nice place to spend time in partially due to the art quality.

There's no real "right answer", but some of the tradeoff cited actually tend to (in isolation) favor better graphics.  For example, unless a game is specifically doing something fun and clever with having tons of players/units onscreen, it's not necessarily an advantage to sacrifice a little quality for more on-screen units.

Also it's worth noting that a lot of games pull tons of art quality out without massive technical requirements.  Stuff like Patapon, Galcon, Monaco, Castle Crashers, and Geometry Wars are only a handful of the games out there which have extremely light technical requirements but pretty awesome art styles (Monaco's terrible character class sprites notwithstanding.)

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15588

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/29/13 12:04:38 AM#8
Originally posted by Cuathon

Quizzical you take your filthy logic off of these forums! We don't like your kidn around here!

 

On a serious note the fact of the matter is that your average pleb is too dumb and unimaginative to take advantage of advanced gameplay where as "the shiny" is totally understandable to them. Mainstream media of every kind values flash over substance. Except books I guess, but if you were a reader as a kid you know how much contempt the public holds for books, unless they are romance novels or written at a 3rd grade level.

Gameplay matters to the largest demographic the same way a quality script matters to the movie industry.

You can get a pass on graphics for casual games perhaps because its about icons more than worldscapes.

[mod edit]

It's sad that such a well written and thought out thread devoles to this so soon. 

Are you a fan of older MMOs by chance? I am, however I have a hard time thinking back to one made before 04 that has what I'd consider good "game-play". They had  a far more freeform focus. Some like SWG offered a large variety in styles of game-play .

Where all of them lacked was in offering actual execution of all those game-play options. Movement, combat, animations, adapatability; not to mention quality of content/objectives, lacked style or substance. Today if a game released like those (same combat, same execution, etc) they would be considered archaic or bland ( with the exception of possibly SWG due to so many options). In just about any MMO pre 04,  almost everything was sacrificed to make them work with massive amounts of people around.

What they offered was a more social, and/or free atmosphere (choice), they didn't offer superior execution in game-play compared to games of today.

If you are a fan of older MMO's. To me, this post is no different than those you are attempting to scrutinize, as you are just as guilty of confusing what good game-play means. It doesn't mean a bigger gameworld or a larger amount of poorly executed content (by todays standards). Most MMO's of today opt for a more up to date form of game-play, they may offer less variety and\or freedom, that's the trade off in most of these newer titles.

 

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  monstermmo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/10
Posts: 1074

4/29/13 12:23:10 AM#9
Originally posted by flizzer

I dont find this complicated.  If I dont like the way a game looks (for instance, Wild Star), the game doesnt really matter to me.  Ill be staring at the screen, so the graphics do matter.  It seems to be a truth around here that you need to chose between graphics or gameplay. I say  nonsense. I expect a good looking game that has great gameplay.   

This.

Alan Wake: Gorgeous graphics, love the gameplay.

Max Payne 3: Gorgeous graphics, love the gameplay.

Alice: Madness Returns: Incredibly gorgeous graphics, love the gameplay.

Uncharted, God of War, Heavy Rain...

I could make the list much longer. =p I enjoy games that don't have the best graphics but i'd still prefer better graphics.

As far as MMO's go i understand the need for graphics to be toned down in order to be an MMO that can be played by most PC gamers rather than the one's that can afford some crazy high end machine.

Games like World of Warcraft and Rift have done an excellent job for fitting in room for all kinds of PC builds and have beautiful graphics. Guild Wars 2 is also very beuatiful but i didn't play too much of it and i don't know how well it handles on lower end PC's.

It's possible i'm completely missing a deeper point tho? I do agree with the title of the thread.

Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
Join me on Raptr Steam Facebook Twitter Gameverse

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

4/29/13 12:33:06 AM#10

I don't think amazing graphics are a pre-requisite for a good game. But it is still important for them to be good and (more importantly) for the art style to fit the game. Music and sound effects are still important. UI is important. Controls are important... and so on.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  KaiserPhoenix

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/13
Posts: 63

4/29/13 12:46:40 AM#11
animations, atmosphere, how skills connect and feel, music and sound effects are much more important to me than pure polygon count and eye candy, because you get used to the graphics in like 5-10 mins, then other things matter.
  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2300

4/29/13 12:52:44 AM#12
I'm drawing a blank for games that went the route of more amazing that needed graphics at the cost of gameplay. As a gamer I see the graphics as adequately good without knowing how much resources were devoted to them that could have been used elsewhere.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/29/13 12:53:11 AM#13
Originally posted by Cuathon

[mod edit]

Gameplay is better nowadays.

Because it requires intellect.

When I played early MMORPGs like AO, DAOC, AC1, etc, the act of playing the game was mindless repetition, whereas in well-designed modern games playing your character well is significantly more rewarding of skill (decision-making and execution.)

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

4/29/13 1:12:53 AM#14
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Cuathon

Quizzical you take your filthy logic off of these forums! We don't like your kidn around here!

 

On a serious note the fact of the matter is that your average pleb is too dumb and unimaginative to take advantage of advanced gameplay where as "the shiny" is totally understandable to them. Mainstream media of every kind values flash over substance. Except books I guess, but if you were a reader as a kid you know how much contempt the public holds for books, unless they are romance novels or written at a 3rd grade level.

Gameplay matters to the largest demographic the same way a quality script matters to the movie industry.

You can get a pass on graphics for casual games perhaps because its about icons more than worldscapes.

[mod edit]

It's sad that such a well written and thought out thread devoles to this so soon. 

Are you a fan of older MMOs by chance? I am, however I have a hard time thinking back to one made before 04 that has what I'd consider good "game-play". They had  a far more freeform focus. Some like SWG offered a large variety in styles of game-play .

Where all of them lacked was in offering actual execution of all those game-play options. Movement, combat, animations, adapatability; not to mention quality of content/objectives, lacked style or substance. Today if a game released like those (same combat, same execution, etc) they would be considered archaic or bland ( with the exception of possibly SWG due to so many options). In just about any MMO pre 04,  almost everything was sacrificed to make them work with massive amounts of people around.

What they offered was a more social, and/or free atmosphere (choice), they didn't offer superior execution in game-play compared to games of today.

If you are a fan of older MMO's. To me, this post is no different than those you are attempting to scrutinize, as you are just as guilty of confusing what good game-play means. It doesn't mean a bigger gameworld or a larger amount of poorly executed content (by todays standards). Most MMO's of today opt for a more up to date form of game-play, they may offer less variety and\or freedom, that's the trade off in most of these newer titles.

 

 

The oldest MMO I ever played was WoW. It was shit. I am a fan of a lot of space empire browser games. OGame was far worse than Warring Factions or SpaceFed even though WF has almost no graphics and SpaceFed's are vastly inferior to OGame's.

The failure of understanding you have is that you actually like sandbox MMOs. You don't. You like the IDEA of them.

 

So many people make mistakes about what they like because they believe the lies fed to them by non-interactive media. You CANNOT have politics or combat the way its described in books or movies. The creator controls all the variables there but in the game world you have the player, often more than one, to deal with.

 

I know the trade offs I have to make to to have the gameplay I want and I'm okay with that. I work everyday to develop improved gameplay so that someday the gameplay that you all despise so much will be good enough. Good enough that it won't put off the people I need to want to play the same kinds of games I do in order for those games to be made.

I would be fine if developers focused on the really important gameplay. If I have to spend 2 hours doing something dull to get the most amazing gameplay in existence I will. Sadly I can't do that because not enough people are intelligence enough and exposed to the necessary environmental factors to make that sacrifice with me.

Its not all about intelligence. Many smart people a re fine with games the way they are. Maybe they have a job that takes a lot out of them, or maybe its one of the many other social or environmental factors that stop them from making the jump. I undertstand that we all have different priorities. I'm just not happy with where that leaves me.

There is a lot of boilerplate gameplay needed to power the systems that provide the amazingness that comes out of sandboxes. And a lot of that can be made more interesting, I still spend time on the high, and even low, level design to make that happen based on the MMO design threads I used to make here. And I work with single player exploratory strategy games to make some of that design playable.

I do all this stuff that doesn't even involve playing a game to get to the games I want. Because if it was done even half decently it would be worth it.

But there is only so much that can be done, and honestly, should be done. I can only think of a dozen people on this site, the premier MMO focused forum, that I would want to play an MMO with. The rest of you have what you want, are not actually interested in a real player driven game, and you are welcome to what you have. I won't fight you for any of that garbage.

You couldn't play the game I like to play even if you wanted to.

Do you know why the gameplay of non-WoW-likes is bad? Because no one even tried to work on it. Except perhaps SWG and sort of EvE. There are literally hundreds of free-to-play themeparks and how many of those are worth something? There are a dozen player driven and/or sandbox games and probably 1/3 of them is amazing. And that is surprising since the gameplay of all of them is all so different compared to themeparks that are all essentially the same. So I'd say they have a BETTER track record than your games.

Imagine how good the best ones would be if there were as many of them as there are themeparks.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

4/29/13 1:16:03 AM#15
Originally posted by Cuathon
[mod edit]

Yeah .. gameplay is much better today than in the EQ/UO days.

At least devs won't call "waiting" gameplay.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

4/29/13 1:17:47 AM#16
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Cuathon

[mod edit]

Gameplay is better nowadays.

Because it requires intellect.

When I played early MMORPGs like AO, DAOC, AC1, etc, the act of playing the game was mindless repetition, whereas in well-designed modern games playing your character well is significantly more rewarding of skill (decision-making and execution.)

Execution is muscle memory not intellect. We've been over this. Decision making is trivial because there is a tiny decision space. And most of the true intellectual work is done FOR YOU. By actual smart people.

Also notice how you equated intellect with "skill." I'll concede that for the arbitrary definition of skill, mostly execution/reflexes, modern games do that better, because its all they ever do.

Anyways we've had this out a thousand times so its not worth going over again.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

4/29/13 1:36:05 AM#17
Originally posted by Cuathon
 

Execution is muscle memory not intellect. We've been over this. Decision making is trivial because there is a tiny decision space. And most of the true intellectual work is done FOR YOU. By actual smart people.

Also notice how you equated intellect with "skill." I'll concede that for the arbitrary definition of skill, mostly execution/reflexes, modern games do that better, because its all they ever do.

Anyways we've had this out a thousand times so its not worth going over again.

As if there is any decision making back in the old days. Repeating killing the same spawn, with simple combat mechanics, requires even LESS intellect .. at least now there are multiple, more interesting skills to choose from.

Plus, if intellect is the number one fun factor, no one will play action combat. We will all go solve differential equations.

Making a decision of whether to pop a CD may not be intellectual, but at least it is interesting and fun (to me).

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3321

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

4/29/13 1:46:23 AM#18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cuathon
[mod edit]

Yeah .. gameplay is much better today than in the EQ/UO days.

At least devs won't call "waiting" gameplay.

Agreed.

And I hope I wont see you in these endless threads with people wanting back travel that takes hours.

Because even if the developers know better, some players really dont.

 

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3321

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

4/29/13 1:53:32 AM#19
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Plus, if intellect is the number one fun factor, no one will play action combat. We will all go solve differential equations.

Uuuuh solving differential equations isnt really fun. Or entertaining. Or even challenging, after a while. That really gets as mechanical as any MMO crafting ...

For a game that offers an intellectual challenge, I would go for chess or go. Those games are also the core examples I mention whenever somebody asks what kind of MMO combat I want.

For my MMO is NOT action combat. Action combat in MMOs is what I'm hearing players demanding since ages on exactly this site. But I hate shooters, they bore me to death. And with MMOs, its worse. These are games played over the internet. In an action game, that means the guy with the better ping wins.

 

  FateFatality

Novice Member

Joined: 6/06/11
Posts: 89

4/29/13 2:02:39 AM#20

i would like to say this, it's all wrong, what it come's down to is lazy development or lack of skills. Graphical features, are simple as on or off, let put it like this, if game uses DX11 API and uses alll graphical features, that DX11 offers it's up to consumer to cater performance of there pc, if one person has low end laptop, then he or she has the choice of lagg or high fps, for people that have high end desktops like my self, HD7970x2 Crossfired, then it’s simple as just ticken all graphical box's and maxing out the sliders .. it's not hard, all i'm saying is, none of this effect's anything, part from time, and optimization, and money, that is all. Todays mmo's can be fully graphical beast. and scale very well to lowering the demand.

 

What people need understand, is that CPU is mainly issue that MMO’s have problem’s with, they just can’t correctly get performance from CPU.

GPU has all grunt it’s just CPU, what needs to change is thing called GPGPU, were most of GPU is doing all work, and CPU only does requirments that’s needed by CPU, how it work’s is that GPU can do most of what CPU can do in terms of graphics, animation GFX lighting and ect. 

But issue is that, they try to catar to low end hardware for masses were GPU is weaker then CPU. this has to change they need to idealy need to maximise GPGPU and CPU at same time were it’s option through interface is this PC low end or high end. 

Then it will go OK! this PC is more CPU then GPU so we put configration for more CPU usage over GPU usage to compsate for low end GPU, for mid range system its simple as GPGPU and useing  CPU to effeicently . then there is high end systems, that go OK GPGPU/CPU MAX . what people don’t know is gpgpu is just were most load is sent to GPU over the CPU, right. so idealy you have MORE CPU stuff sent to GPU. what this mean’s is that you can do both. sending everything to GPU and then sending rest of the features to CPU and then maximizeing the performance. it comes down to carefully picking what does best for what part of hardware GPU or CPU? then optimize it effectly. useing on the fly changes to way hardware works depending on demand of what is happening.

 

i know my spelling is not best, or anything but i'm trying my best to explain.

 

 


http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2227038/nvidia-says-large-gpgpu-speed-up-claims-were-due-to-bad-original-code

CHIP DESIGNER Nvidia has said that most of the outlandish performance increase figures touted by GPGPU vendors was down to poor original code rather than sheer brute force computing power provided by GPUs.

Both AMD and Nvidia have been using real-world code examples and projects to promote the performance of their respective GPGPU accelerators for years, but now it seems some of the eye popping figures including speed ups of 100x or 200x were not down to just the computing power of GPGPUs. Sumit Gupta, GM of Nvidia's Tesla business told The INQUIRER that such figures were generally down to starting with unoptimised CPU code.

During Intel's Xeon Phi pre-launch press conference call, the firm cast doubt on some of the orders of magnitude speed up claims that had been bandied about for years. Now Gupta told The INQUIRER that while those large speed ups did happen, it was possible because of poorly optimised code to begin with, thus the bar was set very low.

Gupta said, "Most of the time when you saw the 100x, 200x and larger numbers those came from universities. Nvidia may have taken university work and shown it and it has an 100x on it, but really most of those gains came from academic work. Typically we find when you investigate why someone got 100x [speed up] is because they didn't have good CPU code to begin with. When you investigate why they didn't have good CPU code you find that typically they are domain scienctists not computer science guys - biologists, chemists, physics - and they wrote some C code and it wasn't good on the CPU. It turns out most of those people find it easier to code in CUDA C or CUDA Fortran than they do to use MPI or Pthreads to go to multi-core CPUs, so CUDA programming for a GPU is easier than multi-core CPU programming."

then watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imti_KuTVhE

4 Pages 1 2 3 4 » Search