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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » What game mechanics have ruined PvP in other MMO's?

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76 posts found
  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1001

4/16/13 10:59:28 PM#61
Originally posted by dcoy68

Small scale fights - IE  WOW arena.  The bigger the fight (that doesn't turn into a lagfest)  the better.

 PVP with no point -  Make winning in some way important to the side with an effect on the game world.  Make it less an instant respawn slayfest and more of a strategic battle.  Don't reward selfish play.   Give a sense of progression and development of both your toon and your guild/team/side for our efforts.

 

 This 2, absolutely.

Instanced pvp are the worse thing that was invented for pvp (by Blizzard). There is no point to them really besides grinding out, and because of them now every company is doing it.

Instanced pvp should've been left for MOBAs.

I hope they never have that in CU.

  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

4/18/13 10:12:13 PM#62

Continual "updates" and additions to gear that force you to start all over with grinding/gold farming/etc. for a whole new set of gear since everyone with the hot new gear can now smush you into a grease spot, no matter what your relative skill levels are.

BLEAH.  UGH.  PHOOEY.  :P

 

(It's the whole horizontal-progression-is-more-interesting thing.)  :)

  Delavega86

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 114

4/26/13 7:38:43 AM#63

everybody being a hybrid. not good. severely limits the need for teamplay and use of tactics.

 

no collision detection. not good. usually ends up having blob trains (see gw2)

plus when in, it helps the underpopulated side and encourages strategic positioning.

 

one faction being severely overpopulated. (see war)

 

"carrot-on-a-stick" updates. (see wow)

where ur barely done gathering all your epic gear... bam! update! now its sub-par, gotta farm again.

 

too gear-dependant. (see aion) where if u got better gear, ur pretty much gonna win.. ...against the whole enemy realm. -_-

 

staring your UI instead of the battlefield. (see wow/gw2 comparison)

in wow you have 20-30 skills and wait for certain actions from your opponent and its like a game of tennis.

in gw2, u have like 15 skills during a fight, from a big pool to choose from (strategy), and focus on the battlefield, dodging attacks.

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1143

4/26/13 7:45:21 AM#64
Making seperate pve and pvp gear, seperating the 2 sides, insted of making raid the best gear for both, imo if pvpers aren't willing to spent the time to raid, they don't deserve the top gear.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/26/13 7:47:17 AM#65
To be fair to blizzard they didn't invent instanced pvp.

Gw1 and coh beat wow to it.
  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7678

Logic be damned!

4/26/13 7:48:55 AM#66

1. Levels

2. Other RPG mechanics

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Tanemund

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/09
Posts: 70

4/26/13 8:08:40 AM#67

We can whine and cry about game mechanics but the truth is we players mess up PvP more than anything else.  Take DAoC for example.  All the changes that people complain about today were changes people were practically begging for back before they happened.  People wanted Emain and the Mile Gates gone and along came New Frontiers with no Emain or Mile Gates.  Soon everyone was crying that NF was too spread out and they couldn't find each other to fight and they wanted Emain and the Mile Gates back.  I could go on and on about the changes made to that game because of player requests, but one example will serve.

 

As soon as the competition starts, the whining starts.  Then the devs start swinging the nerf bat and making changes and everything goes to hell in a handbasket.

 

That's probably because the players don't take time to think about the matrix of PvP and exactly what makes something "overpowered".  For example (again in DAoC.  Sorry but everyone points to that game as great PvP so I'll use it.) Midgard Berserkers had a style called Doublefrost that did huge damage, but cost an extreme amount of endurance.  As a result a zerker could use Doublefrost twice or maybe three times a fight before they went completely out of endurance and couldn't use styles anymore.  Sure the damage was big but the enemy healers could keep up thanks to the dramatic fall off in damage after two swings.  As a result most smart zerkers in Midgard didn't spam Doublefrost.  Instead they saved it for killshot swings.

 

Then Midgard got an endurance regeneration spell (Endocrack cast on tanks by Shaman that lasted for 10 minutes) and suddenly zerkers were able to spam Doublefrost over and over and over doing huge damage with no danger of running out of endurance.  Many zerkers were born and most of them used only one style, the extremely high damage Doubleforst style, since they didn't have to worry about running out of endurance.  Suddenly everyone started screaming "Nerf Zerker Damage!" 

 

But Zerker Damage wasn't the problem.  The problem was Midgard combat styles like Berserker Left Axe were designed to be used without the benefit of Endurance Regeneration (Which, for those of you who remember, was to the be the special realm skill of Hibernia like Celerity was to belong only to Midgard), so they were meant to do huge frontloaded damage so Midgard groups could drop PvE monsters quickly before they had to sit down and regen endurance for the next pull. 

 

What was "overpowered" was hooking Zerk Damage and Endurance Regeneration.  However instead of addressing this point, Mythic took the easy way out, listened to the players and nerfed Zerker damage across the board, gutting the class.  The better move would be to modify endurance regeneration in some way to maintain a high endurance penalty for high frontloaded damage, however listening to the Nerf cries was easier and Midgard began its days as the Hind Tit realm.

 

The moral of the story?  Be careful what you wish for.

Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 1942

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

4/26/13 8:33:56 AM#68
Overuse of instancing and lack of purpose would be the two major things I dislike about PvP in most games.

Currently playing: Divinity: Original Sin, FTL, Hearthstone and Skyrim.
Eagerly anticipating: Camelot Unchained, Elite: Dangerous, Legend of Grimrock 2 and Star Citizen.

  jmcdermottuk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 768

4/26/13 8:46:53 AM#69

Excessive CC wth no immunity

Gear reliance

Poor balancing leading to OP FoTM classes

Listening to forum whiners

 

Edit:

Thanks Shakey, forgot one.

Instancing

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/26/13 8:55:28 AM#70
Tane
Sorry but players didn't invent instancing, which is the greatest cause of shite pvp.
  Tanemund

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/09
Posts: 70

4/26/13 10:05:25 AM#71
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Tane
Sorry but players didn't invent instancing, which is the greatest cause of shite pvp.

Shaky,

 

I accept that players didn't invent it, but player whining did.  Players whining about "gettting zerged" and "getting ganked" etc caused the developers to do the easy thing and create 1) instances where the numbers are even and 2) create mirror classes across realms.  Rather than analyze what caused the problems and addressing that, the developers simply attacked the symptoms of the disease because that in the end was easier (and cheaper) than addressing the root cause (the disease itself).

 

The disease is Power Creep.  When someone can get an advantage in PvP through simply gaining items or abilities that others don't have then that is when PvP goes from Player vrs. Player to Loot Score v. Loot Score.  Power creep bleeds skill out of PvP contests and turns it into the card game War.  Ever play War?  Skill doesn't mean anything in the card game War.  All that matters is you have the highest card when you turn them over.  Its the same in MMOs that blend PvE and PvP.  When two characters run into each other Power Creep turns the game into who has the best loot/abilities available when the confrontation occurs. 

 

In DAoC groups would sit around the Border Keeps waiting for their "I WIN" abilities provided by PvE items and abilities to come back up because going into a PvP fight without them was suicide.  The vast majority of people in PvP in any game don't look for good fights.  Instead they're looking for fights they can win, just like in Real Life.  No one looks for a fight they might lose against a giant rugby player.  Instead they want to pick on that kid from the debate club.

 

It was the same in DAoC.  If people in DAoC really wanted good even fights then the most popular battle ground would have been the level 5 battleground, where people weren't even their advanced class yet and loot was extemely limited.  Instead everyone put artifacts on their level 24 toons so they could pwn it up in Thidranki.  The higher the levels, the more goodies from PvE were available through items and abilities and the less skill based combat got.  (Please don't start in with that "pre kiting" stuff.  I know there was some skill, but your group was still sitting at the boarder keep waiting for Purge to come up before you went to fight, so spare me.  I know because my group was just as guilty.)

 

The solution to Power Creep is to keep items available in PvE equal to both sides and make PvP as skill based as possible.  But even then you won't get even fights because people will 1) avoid each other to collect alleged PvP rewards as fast as possible 2) only fight when they have a clear advantage of some kind and 3) cheat using various hack programs.  Just take a run through Planetside 2 if you don't believe me.  People usually just avoid fighting and get Certifications by capturing enemy fascilities.  If you fight you get yelled at because "there are no certs for defending."  For the most part the only PvP occurs when several are running over the few on their way to the next capture point.  And then you run into that Heavy Assault who is immune to damage and can fly.  Meh.

 

So there you have it.  Player whining caused instances and player behavior makes them the only viable alternative.

Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/26/13 10:08:26 AM#72
Nah, I don't think its to do with player whine.

If you look at the time instancing crept in things like quake 3, counterstrike and original team fortress were popular.

The "money men" thought we will have a slice of that pie.

I agree with you on power creep though.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/26/13 10:14:59 AM#73
It's interesting that Sony took the opposite approach to blizzard and arenanet.

While wow and gw kept the inner game of tab target combat, but took the outer rules of the game from fps - timed matches, ctf etc..

Planetside took the inner game, the actual combat from fps, but took the outer game - persistence, no Instanding, territory control from daoc.
  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1598

4/26/13 10:15:32 AM#74
Originally posted by JRRNeiklot
Resilience

There is no reason for seperate PVP and PVE gear if only one of the two activities is considered "end game".  However if you want to create a game that both has a deep PVE end game progression system and a end game PVP game some form of delimiter on gear is probably the easiest way to go.

PVP players won't tollerate PVE raiders having a gear advantage over them any more than high end PVE raiders will tollerate a solo path to equivlient gear no matter how long the grind is.  I have seen this argument play out time and time again in closed beta's for multiple games and it has always ended the same.

Normalization is the only other easy solution and that kind of makes gear in PVP meaninless doesn't it?

  Pie_Rat

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/05
Posts: 264

4/26/13 10:19:42 AM#75

What makes a good PvP MMO for me is the risk factor when you go out into the world. If you can die 50 times in half an hour without any sort of penalty whatsoever, chances are that gameplay will quickly turn into a snooze fest.

I want my heart pounding and the adrenaline rushing when I PvP, I don't want to be falling half asleep because whatever I do or however bad I play, I know in advance I won't be losing anything.

 

Currently playing:

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/26/13 10:28:07 AM#76
Udon
Disagree resilience is totally unecessary.

They could gate raid content by you require some sort of gear that wards against a specific boss.

Or they could not bother with constant vertical expansion with tiered item sets and instead have a more horizontal approach where you unlock more variety of skills and utility, but not more raw power.

The hamster wheel turns me off mmos full stop, its not just a pvp issue, it also causes issues with pve, splitting up the player base, stopping your friend being able to play with you because he took a month off etc..

Mind gw2 no progression ain't right either.
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