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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Poll: BSC Stealth

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94 posts found
  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

4/25/13 11:35:33 PM#21
Originally posted by naezgul

So you limit a stealthers to fighting only stealthérs and hunters that attack them?

no thanks

No , not at all.  I think people are jumping to conclusions on this.

 

Regarding Tierless's questions, heres the relevant post 

 

@Time - No instancing, no fancy split servers, nothing like that. You should know that by now. :)  -MJ

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

4/25/13 11:36:34 PM#22
Originally posted by Tierless

 


Originally posted by Danwarr
It doesn't sound as if you become instanced if you enter stealth. It's not a mini-game. It's an explanation of how stealth characters will work in CU.

 

From the update:

Now, what do you get for all this risk? Power, movement speed, a game within a game and a challenge like no other. VeilWalkers won’t make great scouts (our archers would be a better choice) and they aren’t great at sneaking up and going all stunlock or stabby/stabby, but they can move through unprotected walls, levitate over objects, learn to control aspects of the Veil’s defenses and use them to their advantage, and so much more.

That sounds awesome and really interesting.


 

So why build defenses if they can just ghost through them? Not a fan of that idea.

Really?  You missed the word 'undefended' which clearly implies there will be counters for the veilwalkers.  Anyway, climbing over walls is a pretty obvious mechanic that worked fine in DAoC and other games.

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

4/25/13 11:38:56 PM#23
Originally posted by boxfetish
I voted 'yes, love it'  because I think it has the potential to become something I would love.  Right now I am ambivalent about the valestalkers.  I think it's kind of a waste to use a whole class up as something like that.   I would feel a lot better about it if valestalking was just a single line in the mage class' tree or something rather than it's own class.  I hope that's how it ends up playing out.

Maybe they could be the same class, depending on spec, etc.  Or, yes, simply an option for another/other classes to pursue. 

  boxfetish

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 81

4/25/13 11:41:17 PM#24
Originally posted by redcapp
Originally posted by boxfetish
I voted 'yes, love it'  because I think it has the potential to become something I would love.  Right now I am ambivalent about the valestalkers.  I think it's kind of a waste to use a whole class up as something like that.   I would feel a lot better about it if valestalking was just a single line in the mage class' tree or something rather than it's own class.  I hope that's how it ends up playing out.

Maybe they could be the same class, depending on spec, etc.  Or, yes, simply an option for another/other classes to pursue. 

Yes, same class for both but different spec or maybe spec half in each (if you wanted)?

  Danwarr

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/09
Posts: 190

"Prepare for Titanfall."

4/25/13 11:45:38 PM#25
Originally posted by Tierless

 


Originally posted by Danwarr
It doesn't sound as if you become instanced if you enter stealth. It's not a mini-game. It's an explanation of how stealth characters will work in CU.

 

From the update:

Now, what do you get for all this risk? Power, movement speed, a game within a game and a challenge like no other. VeilWalkers won’t make great scouts (our archers would be a better choice) and they aren’t great at sneaking up and going all stunlock or stabby/stabby, but they can move through unprotected walls, levitate over objects, learn to control aspects of the Veil’s defenses and use them to their advantage, and so much more.

That sounds awesome and really interesting.


 

So why build defenses if they can just ghost through them? Not a fan of that idea.

A handful of characters ghosting in doesn't mean that defenses are useless. There can still be a whole group of people outside that can't get in. Also, the more stealthers there are, the worse it is for them. It prevents whole armies of stealthers just ghosting in and taking over the entire fortification.

I think it's great. It makes stealth useful for something other than picking people off. 

Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

4/25/13 11:49:00 PM#26
Originally posted by Danwarr
Originally posted by Tierless

 


Originally posted by Danwarr
It doesn't sound as if you become instanced if you enter stealth. It's not a mini-game. It's an explanation of how stealth characters will work in CU.

 

From the update:

Now, what do you get for all this risk? Power, movement speed, a game within a game and a challenge like no other. VeilWalkers won’t make great scouts (our archers would be a better choice) and they aren’t great at sneaking up and going all stunlock or stabby/stabby, but they can move through unprotected walls, levitate over objects, learn to control aspects of the Veil’s defenses and use them to their advantage, and so much more.

That sounds awesome and really interesting.


 

So why build defenses if they can just ghost through them? Not a fan of that idea.

A handful of characters ghosting in doesn't mean that defenses are useless. There can still be a whole group of people outside that can't get in. Also, the more stealthers there are, the worse it is for them. It prevents whole armies of stealthers just ghosting in and taking over the entire fortification.

I think it's great. It makes stealth useful for something other than picking people off. 

Yup.  Gives them a role in the RvR aspect as opposed to just soloing separately on their own.   Makes plenty of sense.  No wall is ever going to be completely impermeable.

  Tierless

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  4/25/13 11:50:28 PM#27

Realistically, the nice thing about MMOs is they are alive, always evolving. If it doesnt work, we can adjust it, tweak it, add to it, take from it. As long as the core concept is good, we can build from that foundation until we get the right result from it. I think that sways me toward being ok with it. Could be similar to splinter cell vs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdZRhRC6ZC0

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Tierless

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  4/25/13 11:55:39 PM#28

1 more vid, I did always like playing a spy in this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZDaen5rRw

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  boxsnd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 448

4/26/13 12:14:45 AM#29

Stealther here: No I do not like it. 

I like the focus on soloing and not stealthzerging, but why make it a separate minigame? I want to be part of the core game.

Overall it sounds (unnecessarily) extremely complicated.

Nothing was wrong with DAoC's stealth system. IMO it was the best stealth system in any MMO. Stealthers were only overpowered because of buffbots. On non-buffbot DAoC servers stealthers are actually underpowered and that's why they rely on stealthzerging.

When he's talking about stunlock he means WoW, right? Stunlocking wasn't possible in DAoC. You had 1 stun and that was almost always purged.

I think this BSC system caters to the forum whining vocal minority, and that's almost always a recipe for disaster.

What I would want is something like DAoC's stealth system without buffbots and with an anti-stealthzerg mechanic (debuff?).

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

4/26/13 12:16:12 AM#30
Originally posted by boxsnd

Stealther here: No I do not like it. 

I like the focus on soloing and not stealthzerging, but why make it a separate minigame? I want to be part of the core game.

Overall it sounds (unnecessarily) extremely complicated.

Nothing was wrong with DAoC's stealth system. IMO it was the best stealth system in any MMO. Stealthers were only overpowered because of buffbots. On non-buffbot DAoC servers stealthers are actually underpowered and that's why they rely on stealthzerging.

When he's talking about stunlock he means WoW, right? Stunlocking wasn't possible in DAoC. You had 1 stun and that was almost always purged.

I think this BSC system caters to the forum whining vocal minority, and that's almost always a recipe for disaster.

What I would want is something like DAoC's stealth system without buffbots and with an anti-stealthzerg mechanic (debuff?).

He said in the comments it will NOT be a separate minigame.  You will be a part of the game.

 

 

 

 

MJ just stated in the comment section as well that the veil could be worked into the CC system.  Interesting.  (Seems he is implying that characters could be pulled into the Veil as a form of CC without losing control of their toon)

  Tierless

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  4/26/13 12:27:14 AM#31

My comments may have sounded very negative, my management strategy is come up with an idea, think of all the bad potential, solve those problems until I get back to my idea and refine it so the problems never happen. Thats just how I process through ideas, works for me but to each their own.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  SBE1

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/06
Posts: 340

4/26/13 12:30:51 AM#32

Anything that can levitate and go through walls is just begging to be a game breaking unbalanced class that finds way to abuse the system.  This is the kind of thing you dream up, you think it might be cool, and then you see imaginative players find ways to abuse it and then you realize how bad an idea it really was, but you can't change it now because it's such a huge nerf to the class.   Better to just stop it now.

It's also just too damn complex.  How about some of the ideas just simplified?   For example, to combat stealth gank groups, just do this:  If  (insert #) of stealth players of a given realm are within (insert AOE range), their stealth is reduced making them easier to detect, up to eventually no stealth at all, depending on the # of players.  You don't want to make the # of players too small since even stealth players like to be social, but you don't want it too big that they just can ambush a full group of visible players.  I'd suggest 2-3 no impact, 3-4 modest stealth reduction, and 6 stealthers basically makes them visible to just about anyone passing by them (only invisible to players at a distance). 

Or you want archers to be scouts?  Just do a combination of Shadowbane's "radar" function for archers and maybe DAOC's realm ability Master of Stealth which increases stealth detection for assassins.

Don't like stunlock?  Just don't make it available in the opening rotation of skills or make stealth stuns last half as long as stuns from other classes.

Don't like instant-on stealth?  Just make stealth require no-combat for 20 seconds AND X-radius away from any enemy player.  So, any enemy player chasing a stealther but can't get into combat can still keep the stealther from going invisible as long as they are reasonably close.  The 20 seconds is just enough time for the other realm to respond to the attack by a stealther, without making the re-stealth take excessivel long.

You don't want to nerf stealth to the point nobody wants to play it, and you want it so that a stealther who waits for the appropriate time to attack has the advantage, since they are using tactics.  You don't want a stealther who just willy-nilly attacks anyone anytime and still wins, especially if they win via stun-lock.  When I play my ranger on a not-to-be-named-free-DAOC-shard, I sit and wait for the right time to attack the enemy and waiting for the right enemy (no big shield, for example).  So, yes, my win-loss ratio is pretty good because I'm waiting and choosing the right target at the right time.  That should always be the case for giving a stealther an advantage.   

Now, if you want to take these simple ideas and weave them into the lore, feel free.  But as a PvP player with extensive Stealth and non-stealth experience, I'm happy to help MJ and the crew as CSE come up with "solutions" to a perceived "stealth problem".    But mentioning someone going through walls is just a no-go.  It is begging for someone to find a way to exploit it in ways the developers never anticipate.

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

4/26/13 12:38:21 AM#33

ok i wont spoil MJ's fun, he really deserves to taste it deeply.

There is SO MUCH more to it guys....i'mo just too tired to really explain it well, but from what we read on KS comments...its just...extramazing...just think about something else that is much controversial in mmos and that there was major issues toward that thing in DAoC....and now picture that this thing i'm not saying sends you in the veil....

 

for the rest, i ll let someone more fluent in english (and less tired) tell you more....

but seriously...i was doubting when i first heard that BSC stealth....but now i'm pretty much convinced.

 

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

4/26/13 12:38:27 AM#34

Valid point regarding moving through walls.  There obviously need to be checks in place.

 

Aside from that, I like his veil system over your alternatives.  The way he is fleshing it out over comments right now is very promising.  Seems like it will be playing a very significant part in the whole RvR experience.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/26/13 12:47:37 AM#35
Originally posted by Tierless

Yay or nay?

I'm just glad that it won't matter...because the game won't fund.

 

It's really too bad...but I guess that's what happens when you put a larger valuation on your idea than it deserves for such a small niche.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Rigamortis

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/05
Posts: 220

4/26/13 12:57:16 AM#36
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Tierless

Yay or nay?

I'm just glad that it won't matter...because the game won't fund.

 

It's really too bad...but I guess that's what happens when you put a larger valuation on your idea than it deserves for such a small niche.

Gonna enjoy quoting this back to you when it does.  I have the crow ready....just bring the plate.

  Tierless

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  4/26/13 1:01:35 AM#37

Another thought. CC was usually a few seconds. If I had to pick between being frozen for a few seconds or getting pulled out of the big battle to fight a jacked up Rogue 1v1 I would rather just be frozen for a few seconds.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Tierless

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  4/26/13 1:06:08 AM#38

I think it comes down to this, period.
Would people rather be stunned for a few seconds and stay in the bigger conflict/battle, or get transported to the veil to fight 1on1 for (I dunno how long)?

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

4/26/13 1:06:51 AM#39
Originally posted by Tierless

Another thought. CC was usually a few seconds. If I had to pick between being frozen for a few seconds or getting pulled out of the big battle to fight a jacked up Rogue 1v1 I would rather just be frozen for a few seconds.

This I agree with.  But if it's a question of working out a system with the veil vs say, minute long mezz, I'd rather a new system be worked out.  Short duration CC though I think is okay as is.

  ego13

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Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/26/13 1:25:34 AM#40
Originally posted by Rigamortis
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Tierless

Yay or nay?

I'm just glad that it won't matter...because the game won't fund.

 

It's really too bad...but I guess that's what happens when you put a larger valuation on your idea than it deserves for such a small niche.

Gonna enjoy quoting this back to you when it does.  I have the crow ready....just bring the plate.

I'm hoping...wouldn't have funded it if I didn't want to play it.  Just annoyed at their overvaluation.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

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