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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The problem with old MMOs (so many damn cheaters)

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33 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/25/13 2:40:15 PM#21
It's why I don't play daoc
Ea don't care

Ea run uo too, so I'm not suprised
  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1548

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

4/25/13 2:50:23 PM#22

This was a huge problem in FFXI that SE took way too many years to try and correct.  Botting to us was not so much automating tasks so you could play afk, but more about pocket sniffers and claiming tools.  Players will do what they need to do to get gear if the best gear is placed on world spawns.

Botting, which was hugely frowned apon initially, became so common that it was expected in the end game community.  People were doing it with no repercussions for so long that it became either join them or quit the game.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6352

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

4/25/13 2:56:16 PM#23

I know cheating bothers me a lot,it ruins the entire game design for myself and everyone else.

 iwould not be so sure cheaters are banned in other games,those are pretty much hacked accounts that are getting banned.

The FIRST real game/dev to ban cheaters in an RPG was Square Enix,however it took them awhiel to really step it up.They formed a TASK force of real gamers to help look after cheating.They removed tons of cheats and took other measures as well.I have and probably never wil lsee another developer go as far as Square did.

I would however NOT blame older games,it is rampant in all games and you can blame the bragging design for that.That is one reason i do not want to see any Esport ideas in rpg's,it encourages players to cheat.

Aion had tons of cheating,it is sort of new,DF1,there is cheating in all these new games,you might  not be good at spotting it.How about Wow?

I have watched Twitch TV WOW where one guy is playing a whole group and you know that is impossible,some guys form a raid on one account.

That is a result  of NEWER gaming ,where everyone wants auto scripting and like to call it "ADD-ONS".They are ALWAYS a platform to cheat,make the game much simpler than it was designed to be played.

I might add that one reason you might see less is because of the design.Example browser gaming oir instances where you can't see what the players are doing.Another topic but is a good reason to not have instances.TRhat guy goes int oa Wow instance and has his auto heal bots heal him,you will never see it.He can use a pos cheat ,a speed cheat [which is REALLY easy for anyone to pull off] all and nobody will know it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 12770

4/25/13 3:08:18 PM#24

There are a number of reasons.  First, older games tended to be grindier, and repeating highly repetitive tasks are exactly what bots are good at.  There's no point in having a bot grind experience for you if you're already max level.

Second, newer games have learned from older ones.  When the first MMORPGs launched, they didn't necessarily know what people would bot or how much people would bot it.  If you're developing a new game today, then you should have some idea of the sort of things that players may try to bot in your game just from what they've tried to bot in other games.

Third, more powerful hardware means that you can implement more security features.  Today, the hardware requirements of encrypting all network activity with AES basically amount to a rounding error, let alone some weaker, cheaper way to obscure the network data so that a packet sniffer can see only that there is a packet.  15 years ago, that wasn't the case, partially because AES didn't exist.  Even a simple affine cipher to obscure important program data that bots might want to see and exploit would be very simple to do and have an inconsequential performance hit on modern hardware.  I don't know if games actually do anthing along these lines (I don't think they do), but it would be pretty easy to implement if you wanted to.

Fourth, when a game has been out for a long time, the company probably isn't willing to invest the resources into new, aggressive anti-botting measures.  A game that just launched and has realistic hopes of getting many more new players to pick it up may be willing to put more resources into it.

  Sulaa

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/11
Posts: 830

4/25/13 3:27:34 PM#25
Originally posted by maplestone
I used to love mining and lumberjacking in UO to feed my crafters, despite it being rather monotonous.  But nothing would kill my enthusiasm faster than to stumble across a house where a bot was repeatedly arriving, departing and returning, filling a chest full of more ore and lumber in day than I could gather in a couple of months of near-OCD harvesting.

Yea. There is only a few of things that kill my enthusiasm and willingness to play a game - but that example you mentioned with harvesting bot is one of them.

  Kezzadrix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 87

4/25/13 3:33:45 PM#26
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Kezzadrix
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 

Just to make sure we understand each other, dual/triple... boxing is not botting. 

No, boxing alone is not botting.  However,  if a 3rd party program controls any actions of characters, that is botting. 

 I wouldn't even say then.

Say your using a program like Isboxer.  1 key, 1 action per box.  So say your playing wow and using a hunter, and druid combo.  Pressing the # 2 key causes your hunter to shoot arcane mark, and your druid to cast moonfire.

3rd party pogram - not a bot.

You must be there at the computer, that is the difference between botting and boxing.  If you are not there, there are no actions being done.

If you can leave the computer and your character still carries out pre-scripted actions.  Thats botting. 

Programs like Isboxer are allowed on most MMO games precisely because it is only 1 action per key press per character and you are required to be at the computer still. 

I dunno.. it's kind of a grey area.  I get what you're saying but it's still a 3rd party program performing more actions simultaneously than a player could do without it.  Normally that 1 key would perform 1 action with 1 character.  With the program, 1 key will perform 1 action with 2 or more characters.  So, the program is still controlling the characters the player is not. 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18368

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

4/25/13 4:05:32 PM#27

I've not played AC, so can't comment on that title, but for the most part just about every MMORPG I've played, both new and old have people in them that cheat in some way.  Might be bots, could be target assist macros, or radar when there shouldn't be one, but there's always those who break the rules.

Fortunately, in most cases I don't feel like they've really impeded my fun, and I manage to go about my business regardless.

I guess one "advantage" to not being any good at PVP is that whether I'm beat by a cheater or someone who is just more skilled (which is most folks these days)  I'm just as dead so the net outcome for me is zero. 

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/25/13 4:52:00 PM#28

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10

Eve’s response to multiboxing

Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).

An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!

Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.

Wow stance on multiboxing

http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Conversations

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Salio69

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 416

4/26/13 12:17:09 PM#29

a lot of older mmos look the other way since a lot are still on p2p models. ban that bot, you just lost a little bit of income for your business. ban 100 bots, you just lost a lot of income for your business. get it?

f2p suffers from a more massive botting problem though. botters on a f2p game just simply hide their IP, run their bots til they are banned to gather stuff to support the main character. the bot gets banned, they just put up another bot with another IP and keep going. it costs to have someone find these guys and ban them.

all the bot hunting in the end actually costs businesses money. theres plenty of bots in new mmos, they are just seen less because newer mmos are more heavily instanced then the older ones.

  Vidir

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 962

4/26/13 12:21:46 PM#30
How is it a "cheat" if everyone does it and it is not braking any rules of the game?
  ZedTheRock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/13
Posts: 175

4/26/13 12:24:45 PM#31
Originally posted by TheScavenger

Asheron's Call was my first MMO. However, only a few, very small tiny fraction, of players didn't bot (not just macroing, but actual botting). I can probably count them on both hands.

 

Pretty much the entire playerbase bots. New MMOs ban this (except for Darkfall), as they should. It forces everyone to "cheat" to keep up, and...why even play if all your doing is botting the whole time?

 

I guess you will argue "so we can get to max level over night"...then I say...Turbine (or any other company) then might as well make everyone max level. Then there is no reason to cheat. Seems stupid to have everyone level, if they are just gonna cheat to max level overnight.

 

I would love to play AC or some other old MMO, if there wasn't so many damn botters and cheaters.

 

Old MMOs seem to have this problem far more. UO this was a huge problem, dunno if it still is...AC has the most cheaters I've ever seen in an MMO, even more than UO ever was. I know SWG had tons of botters and cheaters. I remember seeing huge groups of players botting near and around cities.

 

What is it with these old MMOs where everyone cheats? New MMOs no one does, and the few that do are usually banned rather quickly. Old MMOs the developer doesn't do anything. And old MMOs there seems to be far more cheaters anyway, than what new MMOs have.

I used to ACM (Attended Combat Macro) in AC but thats only because the worst part of the game was leveling because grinding boring mobs (Like Tuskers, Lugians and Olthoi) was the best leveling method.  The good parts of the game was actually running some of the quest dungeons or killing the Alpha Loot Monsters, or Mobs we called Loot Pinatas.

 

I'd still be playign AC today if there was a healthy population but when you only have 600 people on across all servers during primetime, the chance of you doing anything fun with a group is small plus the economy takes a nose dive.

SUP

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2437

4/26/13 12:42:38 PM#32
There's no real reason to "bot" in "modern" MMO's. You generally level so fast nowadays that taking out time to write a "botting program" will most probably DELAY your reaching level cap !
  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3541

4/26/13 11:20:12 PM#33
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I don't think most MMO players even know how to bot in any game.

You haven't played Asheron's Call. Anyone that doesn't cheat either leaves, or joins the cheaters. Literally pretty much the entire playerbase cheats.

 

UO, there was botting to raise skills+stats, and people would leave their bot on. A while ago, probably 2-3 years (never felt like going back), when I said "I don't want to macro/cheat, I would rather earn my skills normally"...everyone I told that to, seemed really surprised. Now its been a while, so maybe the devs feel differently...but I remember everyone botted to raise their skills to master level.

 

In SWG, there was tons of bots in the cantinas and out in the world fighting mobs.

 

Darkfall has the same problem, tons of botters.

 

It seems to mostly plague older MMOs, and ones that are more sandbox in style.

 Any MMO that promotes any type of competition will have cheating.....For some reason in this industry people jsut have to be the best and will go to any lengths to achieve it....It isnt just older MMOs, but every FPS I have ever played has had massive cheating as well as just about every PVP based game.

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