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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why does no MMORPG have population based mob spawning?

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28 posts found
  DocBrody

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1638

 
OP  4/25/13 4:01:39 AM#1

Hello,

I have a question: why has no MMORPG done this? Or ist there one which does it?

Coming from single player RPGs I now play some MMORPG titles which are not exactly "over populated" and each one of them, even if I am completely alone in an area, spawns mobs like crazy!

Go inside some cave, kill mobs until you get to your objective, when you are going back and outside mobs have already re-spawned and you kill the same guys again?

I understand if there are many people around, but this also happens off prime time when there is just a handful of people in an entire region. Why is there not an intelligent system to check how many people are actually around who "need" the mobs?

It would be much more immersive and give a better feeling of accomplishment if mobs would be gone if you killed them, instead of having to mow through the SAME mobs again.

I think this should be standard for any MMO which wants to simulate a little more realism.

Cheers

Doc B

 

  tropik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/30/03
Posts: 103

4/25/13 4:04:21 AM#2
WoW does have a spawning system which takes to amount the amount of players and reduces/decreases the spawn time of mobs based on population. I'm pretty sure there's others games with a similar system. 
  Dakeru

Elite Member

Joined: 9/21/09
Posts: 1062

4/25/13 4:08:43 AM#3

A system like that would probably be abused in the opposite way of what you are thinking of.

People would just stand around together to spawn more monsters and spam AoE.

Just think of farming karma in Orr on gw2. Everyone spams attacks for hundreds of kills within minutes.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

4/25/13 4:14:20 AM#4
Originally posted by Dakeru

A system like that would probably be abused in the opposite way of what you are thinking of.

People would just stand around together to spawn more monsters and spam AoE.

Just think of farming karma in Orr on gw2. Everyone spams attacks for hundreds of kills within minutes.

Yeah, but GW2 still does what OP asked about.  I've seen (and been part of) groups that weren't able to kill "hundreds" in minutes, because there were JUST enough people to spawn too many mobs and of course, Vets or Champs.  Whether people abuse it or not, it should still be implimented.

  DocBrody

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1638

 
OP  4/25/13 4:14:30 AM#5
Originally posted by Dakeru

A system like that would probably be abused in the opposite way of what you are thinking of.

People would just stand around together to spawn more monsters and spam AoE.

Just think of farming karma in Orr on gw2. Everyone spams attacks for hundreds of kills within minutes.

 Hello,

it´s about less mobs, not more mobs.

I just don´t like mobs respawning when I already got rid of them. And if no one else than me is around in that area, for what reason are they respawning anyway? For me? Again?

e.g. you get a quest to clear an area. Fine. While you clear it, on the other side, the silly mobs are already back, although I just killed them a minute ago, but there is not even another player around who might need mobs to "clear the area" too. I just want one MMORPG which is not immersion breaking like that and high mob density. 

what I want for example:

1.  re-spawn mobs only if there is more than one player around 

2. spawn mobs only if you have specific quest in your quest log

Yes, maybe it would be way more complicated to program, but there should be more clever systems than a simple timer on a mob which makes it come back after X seconds.

Cheers,

Doc B

 

 

  Adamantine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3394

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

4/25/13 4:18:32 AM#6
That sounds like a very reasonable spawn rate.

 

 

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

4/25/13 4:27:39 AM#7

Real realistic and dynamic worlds not posible yet or they are way to expensive and time consuming to develop.

So most easy way is always same mob same spots respawning over and over again specially in themparks less in snadbox but also mainly programmed like that.

  ichihaifu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/23/10
Posts: 257

4/25/13 4:41:46 AM#8

You can already do this, but there is no point to it and its not what MMORPG's are for.

If you do not enjoy the said MMO element of games, you're better off playing single player RPG's.

  WW4BW

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 492

4/25/13 4:55:22 AM#9

 Some games do have this, others have mobs grow stronger when more players are around. And some games do without.

There is an argument for not having monsters scale. It offers a choice to the player of how they want to play. Although it can be argued that it forces the decission.. and that mob scaling offers a choice.. 

But if there is no scaling the players can decide how they want to tackle it. Bring their guild or make a massive open raid and then share the few bits of loot between 50 people. Or figure out how to do it with 3 people and make a killing selling the loot you dont need.

If you have mob scaling, it basicly means that you can do anything you like with as many people as you like, and it will always be about the same challenge. It certainly has its upsides. Like if you play at off-peak hours cause you got home late one day and still want to do something in game without constantly getting swarmed by NPCs that arent being kept down by other players. It certainly makes for more of a game.

Im the virtual world kinda guy though.. and I prefer it when the mobs dont scale in dificulty or numbers for no other reason that there are more people around to kill them. 

You also have to consider how it is implemented.. Is it glaringly obvious that it is going on or is it subtle, such as shorter respawn timers, more roaming mobs, or just a tiny increase in hitpoints. 

And what happens if its an open zone and you have a huge influx of players just hanging out or passing through, while you are trying to farm.. all of a sudden even the simplest fight gets hard.. for no apparant reason..

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/25/13 5:05:45 AM#10
Originally posted by Eir_S

Yeah, but GW2 still does what OP asked about.  I've seen (and been part of) groups that weren't able to kill "hundreds" in minutes, because there were JUST enough people to spawn too many mobs and of course, Vets or Champs.  Whether people abuse it or not, it should still be implimented.

GW2, EQ2, Defiance, and even UO in some places (Champ spawns).

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Dakeru

Elite Member

Joined: 9/21/09
Posts: 1062

4/25/13 5:06:00 AM#11
Originally posted by DocBrody

 Hello,

it´s about less mobs, not more mobs.

I got that, that's why I said it's the opposite of what you are thinking of.

Frankly you can't say it should only scale down. More than once yesterday did I wish there would be more mobs on swtor, all the quest mobs were instantly taken and me and my friend couldn't change instances.

 

Scaling has to go both ways.

  WW4BW

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 492

4/25/13 5:12:09 AM#12
Originally posted by GroovyFlower

Real realistic and dynamic worlds not posible yet or they are way to expensive and time consuming to develop.

So most easy way is always same mob same spots respawning over and over again specially in themparks less in snadbox but also mainly programmed like that.

 You say that.. but I cant see why that would be the case. Other than level of detail.. 

 The trick lies in not having mobs just appear in front of you.. And for that to happen in an MMO you also need a really large world, so you can move on after clearing an area.. 

 I have played games where they manage this. OK they werent completly realistic but they made sense.

 And we know from botters that it can infact be possible to make halfway believeable behavior in a script. 

 I think the real reason we dont have real realistic and dynamic worlds is that they would most likely be boring. Or too harsh.

 But it should be done.. atleast for science. And we could get some sort of dumbed down and funned up version to play with. Or we can hope that games like minecraft keep developing in detail and scale and we can at some point make our own MMOs, since the publishers seem to only want to back themeparks.

  WW4BW

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 492

4/25/13 5:17:48 AM#13
Originally posted by Dakeru
Originally posted by DocBrody

 Hello,

it´s about less mobs, not more mobs.

I got that, that's why I said it's the opposite of what you are thinking of.

Frankly you can't say it should only scale down. More than once yesterday did I wish there would be more mobs on swtor, all the quest mobs were instantly taken and me and my friend couldn't change instances.

 

Scaling has to go both ways.

It doesnt have to. But it could be a good thing for when you are just want to kill that one quest mob.. 

I personally hate the kind of game design where that is all you are doing. But it is trivial, if timeconsuming, to create quests instead of free form gameplay, so developers go with the safe option. Even if it makes for a trivial game.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19488

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

4/25/13 5:19:39 AM#14
I've seen MMOS do what the OP wants (no respawns of npcs) in an instance, but in the open world they all pretty much repop based on a timer, just a question of how long, not if there are other players about.

True, some games may add more npcs when more players are about, but I've not seen any game that does not bring a minimum amount back after a certain amount of time has passed. (in the open world)

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
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  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/25/13 5:23:40 AM#15
Thread is a false premise, many mmos do this.

Gw2 & rift spring immediately to mind.

Others do it in a less obvious way too, its been a common mmo feature since the wow/coh/eq2 era.
  WW4BW

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 492

4/25/13 5:47:45 AM#16
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Thread is a false premise, many mmos do this.

Gw2 & rift spring immediately to mind.

Others do it in a less obvious way too, its been a common mmo feature since the wow/coh/eq2 era.

I think the OP had an issue with too many mobs... but that is just a matter of balancing though. It is why it is important to send feedback when alpha/beta testing and when playing after launch.. 

Even if you wont get any benefit from it, unless you play through the quest again on an alt.

 

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5807

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

4/25/13 6:15:44 AM#17

Why not make the AI smarter so the mobs are passive and if you get too close instead of building aggro the mob actually build fear and move away. You want to kill it? you have crowd control to stop it form running away, thats more realistic and should work better than just having dumb mobs standing there waiting for you to build aggro and kill them where they stand. And if its a hostile mob you dont want to fight you can sneak around, or just fight it and he can also try to run away if dying.

 

As for the respawn, make respawning more realistic. You are in a cave, you clearly killed everyone in there, you want more mobs? they will come from the entrance instead of just magically spawning in front of you. You killed every mob in the wild area near you? respawns will come running from a far enough distance that you dont see them spawning from thin air. But not just running in line every time you kill them, next!, rinse and repeat... thats boring and equally crappy. Let it happen naturally, the respawns dont even have to be routed to the same place the last respawn was. Theres room for new features like dynamic mob behavior.

 

Theres no excuse that the company cant handle more creativity than what we have today and blame resources or money or whatever when they clearly can handle a full mmorpg with many servers. The only way we will get rid of boring repetitive tasks in mmos is by being more creative with content and how that content works.

  LogicLester

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 67

4/25/13 6:57:25 AM#18
Originally posted by GroovyFlower

Real realistic and dynamic worlds not posible yet or they are way to expensive and time consuming to develop.

So most easy way is always same mob same spots respawning over and over again specially in themparks less in snadbox but also mainly programmed like that.

 

They're definitely possible, and implementation would certainly be time consuming, but how much of that would be subsumed in the time gained from having to create a lot less static or dynamic content, I don't know.  Cost-wise it's even harder to say since it would be more of a choice of spending more money on more/more expensive servers to handle the larger cpu load, or else sacrifice some of the size and/or gameplay of the rest of the game to compensate.

 

UO tried this with their "artificial life engine" back during beta, but scrapped it.

 

And there's really not much of a difference between themepark (static) and sandbox (dynamic) in this regard.  You just trade the certainty of a spawn in a location designed specifically for them to be there, for the randomness of an unknown spawn in a generic spawn location.  Neither offers more than the other in terms of realism.

  NIII

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 114

4/25/13 7:06:33 AM#19

Just my input on the subject;

 

I agree with the OP,  but for a slightly different reason;

 

I'm tired of walking out into a field and seeing 50 of a mob just standing there. It's unrealistic, and just warns me of the impending grind.

Often times it looks like the mappers just took a spawn brush and rubbed it all over anywhere that isn't the town or a mountain.

The mobs around a 'town' usually outnumber the npcs 'living' in said town by at least 5 to 1.

If I were living in the game world, I would probably find somewhere else to live.

 

Some games do a lot better with populations than others, though.

 

I'm looking in your general direction; Korea.

  Mors.Magne

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1432

4/25/13 7:14:34 AM#20

Darkfall Unholy Wars does.

 

Mob sizes and spawn rates both increase as the number of players present increases.

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