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  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

4/20/13 10:05:29 PM#21
Originally posted by Kurush

History lesson?  Is it time for a history lesson, dear?  *holds rubber duck to ear*  IT IS.

Brad McQuaid.  A brief history.

Once upon a time, there was a boy named Brad.  He represented the creative vision which defined the era of greatest success for the original Everquest.  He was loved by many, hated by a few, but respected by all.  Time passed, and EQ1 lost its sparkle.  People began to move on.  Y'know, because death to the Midgardian dogs, long live Hibernia.

About then, EQ2 and WoW slammed against each other, launching nearly at the same time.  And the two games began to borrow from each other.  It was pretty awesome to watch them both take turns copying each other's QoL changes within one month.  Oh, the joys of innovation.  And many of the EQ diehards began to comment, "This porridge is too WoW."  Actually, that part never happened.  As I recall, and I do recall pretty well, most of the complaints for early EQ2 were about terrible performance on even high-end rigs, inability to solo even while questing, and overly harsh dungeon lock-out mechanics.

But the masses cried for something different!  And by masses, I mean a tiny minority of dissatisfied EQ1 vets.

God, where the Hell am I going with this.  *holds rubber duck up to ear*  Explain what they really wanted?  I thought they were just bitter and didn't move on when the genre did . . .  Oh, there was more?

Oh, right.  One day, their savior returned!  Brad McQuaid, waving a feathered hat (I think he did that a few times), at the helm of now-defunct Sigil Games.  Come, Brad said, come my faithful followers, and I will take you on a wondrous journey.  POLITICS.  EXPLORATION.  DUNGEONS.  BOATS.  DID I MENTION BOATS.  IT'S 2013, AND STILL NOBODY HAS GIVEN US BOATS.  EVEN DARKFALL PROMISED BOATS.  GOD DAMN IT.

Where was I?  Yes.  People wanted many of these features.  I would have been all in if the boats thing materialized, but what people mostly wanted was this:

Wait, I think I need to explain to you what many newer players don't get.  Many of EQ1's "features" were nightmarishly frustrating by today's standards.  You had to run back to your body naked (while Karma Chameleon played in the background.  OK, I made that part up.  What, you've never heard of it?  L2Spotify) to get your gear from your corpse, for example.  And if you didn't, you eventually lost your gear.  Joy.  You also had to compete for rare spawns with different players in the same (originally) completely non-instanced world.  Oh, did I mention the random aggressive mobs roaming leveling areas which completely destroyed you in the space of roughly seven seconds?  Newer players look at a game like that and wonder, "How can anybody be nostalgic for that kind of experience?"

But this kind of design had a few benefits.  It smashed the playerbase together in a way that newer games didn't.  The danger and potentially crushing penalties of the game forced people to rely on each other.  In the name of avoiding frustration, many newer games essentially let players play the entire game either solo or with their guild, avoiding the random intermingling.  That's what these players really wanted: a game with a sense of community, bound by shared struggle.  A large world full of exploration was icing.

But problems . . .  so many problems.  It's a big, long, hard, agonizing, painful jump from the world of designer/producer (even lead) to CEO.  Ask Bill Roper.  A big problem is that you have these people with great design or production chops.  And then, while their own talents get wasted, they struggle (often unsuccessfully because this isn't part of their skill set) to appeal to investors to garner continued funding, etc. etc.  And y'know what?  Maybe the guys who actually do end up leading production or design aren't that good.  Happens . . .  a lot.  That's what happens when you have a great designer create a strategic vision as CEO, then entrust it to people with a tiny fraction of their experience to implement.  In the many post-mortems that examined Vanguard's early collapse, failures of leadership ranked high.

Here's a little hint.  Vanguard was in production forever-and-a-half.  I think the final tally was a lil over five years.  Out of that, nearly the entire game which people played at launch was made during the last ohhhh . . .  I think around 20 months was the number I recall.  They had that much wasted development time.  I wonder how good the game was when it launched . . .

I'm boring them?  *puts rubber duck to ear*  Cut to what chase?  Why are you such a backseat poster?

Ok, lets fast-forward.  IT LAUNCHED.  And OH GOD, THE HORROR.  I would list the myriad agonies of the Vanguard launch, but . . .   well . . .  nahhh.  "Terrible performance and ten-million bugs" will be your short version.

Long story short, Sigil Games was gone in a few months, and almost all of the players left.  And SOE took it over.  And people didn't come back.  And SOE made it playable by slowly fixing most of the bugs.  And people still didn't come back.  And it went F2P.  And people still didn't come back.  And every few months, some blogger writes about why they play Vanguard.  And by play, they mean "have played for the last two weeks".  And two weeks later, they've stopped playing.

But for reasons beyond the comprehension of mortal men, some people still hold out hope.  Their whispers in forgotten tongues can still be heard on the wind,

"The Brad shall save us."

"The Brad shall rise again."

And secretly, I think, the Brad thinks to himself, "I'm much happier clocking in, being a designer on someone else's dollar, and going home.  Leave me alone, crazy forum-posters.  And especially you, crazy redditers."

But once every second full moon, he retires to a room warded by the forbidden symbols of the heretics, and he mutters to himself, "I hear your whispers, my loyal followers.  The children of Marr shall rise again!"  And his girlfriend hears him muttering from the laundry room, and she almost wishes she had dated Mark Jacobs instead.

May the Brad forgive me.

Add in that Brad was snorting coke like it was going out of style while also not  having the balls to even face his employees as they got herded out of the building by security so they could be fired in the parking lot, and you pretty much covered it.

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

4/20/13 11:24:37 PM#22
Originally posted by Quirhid

Vanguard was boring as hell, even when the players deemed "this is how it should've released". I didn't find anything new or exciting in it. t was so generic.

Strict holy trinity combat, uninspired quests, grindy as hell, re-occuring abilities (Fireball I, Fireball II, Fireball III -syndrome), seemingly arbitrary level-cap which caused the classes to have "filler level-ups" from which they received essentially nothing, fragmented player base across many starting and leveling areas, annoying mini-games for crafting coupled with pretty standard resource gathering both made "bot resistant" because they were so unappealing you actually wanted to use one, very poorly optimized and ugly with characters that looked like they were made from plastic.

That enough?

Even if it had had the funding to release in the state it was intended I doubt it wouldn't have made much of an impact at all. Why would anyone thing Brad is some sort of a messiah?

Ill take the trinity any day of the week over say what GW2 has done with combat making ever class basically a clone of every other class.  Everyone's a DPS everyones a healer I feel like im part of some giant ant farm sim when I play that game.

Being needed and having to depend on other players for things is an important part of an MMO, more and more games are removing this element completely, you just have a bunch of people moving about in herds all doing the same thing but not communicating at all, its like the borg.

  DeaconX

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3072

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

4/20/13 11:28:18 PM#23

I would LOVE a spiritual successor to Vanguard. I think the design concepts were way ahead of their time and unfortunately, the technology and the time/money weren't there for the project... an argument can be made for talent as well though that is easy to understand when you're sort of pioneering and doing things that haven't really been done much before.


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  User Deleted
4/20/13 11:34:08 PM#24
Originally posted by Kurush

History lesson?  Is it time for a history lesson, dear?  *holds rubber duck to ear*  IT IS.

Brad McQuaid.  A brief history.

Once upon a time, there was a boy named Brad.  He represented the creative vision which defined the era of greatest success for the original Everquest.  He was loved by many, hated by a few, but respected by all.  Time passed, and EQ1 lost its sparkle.  People began to move on.  Y'know, because death to the Midgardian dogs, long live Hibernia.

About then, EQ2 and WoW slammed against each other, launching nearly at the same time.  And the two games began to borrow from each other.  It was pretty awesome to watch them both take turns copying each other's QoL changes within one month.  Oh, the joys of innovation.  And many of the EQ diehards began to comment, "This porridge is too WoW."  Actually, that part never happened.  As I recall, and I do recall pretty well, most of the complaints for early EQ2 were about terrible performance on even high-end rigs, inability to solo even while questing, and overly harsh dungeon lock-out mechanics.

But the masses cried for something different!  And by masses, I mean a tiny minority of dissatisfied EQ1 vets.

God, where the Hell am I going with this.  *holds rubber duck up to ear*  Explain what they really wanted?  I thought they were just bitter and didn't move on when the genre did . . .  Oh, there was more?

Oh, right.  One day, their savior returned!  Brad McQuaid, waving a feathered hat (I think he did that a few times), at the helm of now-defunct Sigil Games.  Come, Brad said, come my faithful followers, and I will take you on a wondrous journey.  POLITICS.  EXPLORATION.  DUNGEONS.  BOATS.  DID I MENTION BOATS.  IT'S 2013, AND STILL NOBODY HAS GIVEN US BOATS.  EVEN DARKFALL PROMISED BOATS.  GOD DAMN IT.

Where was I?  Yes.  People wanted many of these features.  I would have been all in if the boats thing materialized, but what people mostly wanted was this:

Wait, I think I need to explain to you what many newer players don't get.  Many of EQ1's "features" were nightmarishly frustrating by today's standards.  You had to run back to your body naked (while Karma Chameleon played in the background.  OK, I made that part up.  What, you've never heard of it?  L2Spotify) to get your gear from your corpse, for example.  And if you didn't, you eventually lost your gear.  Joy.  You also had to compete for rare spawns with different players in the same (originally) completely non-instanced world.  Oh, did I mention the random aggressive mobs roaming leveling areas which completely destroyed you in the space of roughly seven seconds?  Newer players look at a game like that and wonder, "How can anybody be nostalgic for that kind of experience?"

But this kind of design had a few benefits.  It smashed the playerbase together in a way that newer games didn't.  The danger and potentially crushing penalties of the game forced people to rely on each other.  In the name of avoiding frustration, many newer games essentially let players play the entire game either solo or with their guild, avoiding the random intermingling.  That's what these players really wanted: a game with a sense of community, bound by shared struggle.  A large world full of exploration was icing.

But problems . . .  so many problems.  It's a big, long, hard, agonizing, painful jump from the world of designer/producer (even lead) to CEO.  Ask Bill Roper.  A big problem is that you have these people with great design or production chops.  And then, while their own talents get wasted, they struggle (often unsuccessfully because this isn't part of their skill set) to appeal to investors to garner continued funding, etc. etc.  And y'know what?  Maybe the guys who actually do end up leading production or design aren't that good.  Happens . . .  a lot.  That's what happens when you have a great designer create a strategic vision as CEO, then entrust it to people with a tiny fraction of their experience to implement.  In the many post-mortems that examined Vanguard's early collapse, failures of leadership ranked high.

Here's a little hint.  Vanguard was in production forever-and-a-half.  I think the final tally was a lil over five years.  Out of that, nearly the entire game which people played at launch was made during the last ohhhh . . .  I think around 20 months was the number I recall.  They had that much wasted development time.  I wonder how good the game was when it launched . . .

I'm boring them?  *puts rubber duck to ear*  Cut to what chase?  Why are you such a backseat poster?

Ok, lets fast-forward.  IT LAUNCHED.  And OH GOD, THE HORROR.  I would list the myriad agonies of the Vanguard launch, but . . .   well . . .  nahhh.  "Terrible performance and ten-million bugs" will be your short version.

Long story short, Sigil Games was gone in a few months, and almost all of the players left.  And SOE took it over.  And people didn't come back.  And SOE made it playable by slowly fixing most of the bugs.  And people still didn't come back.  And it went F2P.  And people still didn't come back.  And every few months, some blogger writes about why they play Vanguard.  And by play, they mean "have played for the last two weeks".  And two weeks later, they've stopped playing.

But for reasons beyond the comprehension of mortal men, some people still hold out hope.  Their whispers in forgotten tongues can still be heard on the wind,

"The Brad shall save us."

"The Brad shall rise again."

And secretly, I think, the Brad thinks to himself, "I'm much happier clocking in, being a designer on someone else's dollar, and going home.  Leave me alone, crazy forum-posters.  And especially you, crazy redditers."

But once every second full moon, he retires to a room warded by the forbidden symbols of the heretics, and he mutters to himself, "I hear your whispers, my loyal followers.  The children of Marr shall rise again!"  And his girlfriend hears him muttering from the laundry room, and she almost wishes she had dated Mark Jacobs instead.

May the Brad forgive me.

Sorry, not history. Fiction. 

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

4/21/13 12:08:05 AM#25
Originally posted by delete5230

 

3) Brad WAS rushed, politics got the best of the making Vanguard

 

Just need to correct this, as well as one of the points in the OP

 

Brad wasn't rushed, his company ran out of money.  It was either launch unfinished or not at all.

And as for the OP saying Vanguard was forced to be wowified, thats also incorrect.  No one forced Sigil to do anything.   Whatever was done before the SoE acquisition 9as owner, not as publisher) is all on Sigil.  And while SoE have made some changes that move it closer to WoWishness, they werent that drastic.  It certainly hasnt been big changes, just a few minor tweaks here and there (like the Riftway system)

  duggyfr3sh123

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/13
Posts: 102

4/21/13 12:13:32 AM#26
  kjempff

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 661

Make worlds not stories

4/21/13 12:18:05 AM#27

About vanguard.

The idea of diplomacy was awesome, but how it turned out as a minigame was a joke.

Crafting was not too bad, although I still find eq2's craftng the most fun I have tried in any mmorpg.

Combat mechanics in Vanguard is still the best and most fun I have ever tried, just the way classes supported eachother that was a stroke of genious.

My problem is that I can not play a mmorpg no matter how good, that will never get expansions or serious continuous development. It was kindda obvious early on, VG would not get the attention required. EQ2 and VG has the same target audience and SoE had to let VG die because of that is a conspiracy theory that is absolutely false, seriously who came up with that idea it doesn't add up unless you use logic, so let me be clear I don't think it was the case .. no no no.

Im trying to get to like GW2 right now with a free weekend code, and its combat reminds me a bit of VG in a way. 10 years later, and VG combat still beats anything - Stop there gwtroll, it is my personal opinion, and again totally wrong.

Where was I ?

I say we need a St. Quaids day, did anyone send in a petition yet ? And if anyone could fund a top game, it would be the Catholic church..., does anyone know a Bishop we can blackmail ? They might have issues with the all different gods, but maybe if we made paladins OP ?

 

On a more serious note. Did you listen to [link incomming] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt-MEgLXKXs about eqnext ? If I weren't such a cynical person I would say they learned from teh Brad and Eqnext might not be completely screwed up.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

4/21/13 12:21:04 AM#28
Originally posted by duggyfr3sh123

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Sony-Online-Entertainment-RVW2506268.htm

 

good luck guys

Not saying the management isnt incompetent, but you can find these posts about any MMORPG developer.  Or any company.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6544

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

4/21/13 12:21:04 AM#29

I do like Brad but i feel the entire MMORPG team at SOE is not creative enough.TYhey just keep churning out the same old same old.

Vanguard was actuall ya very good game,hard to beleive we can insult that game when imo it was released buggy but still miles better than most games we see now.However VG was basically Brad's vision of how to make EQ or EQ2 a tad better.I woudl rather see a whole new train of thoguht on creativity,than trying to trweak EQ or EQ2.

However i can see the justice,i am biased towards FFXI's core design and if i had a choice i would copy and tweak that design,so i do understand Brad's decisions.We also need to realize that copying Eq or Eq2 at the time  was not a bad thing,Wow was stealiong ideas form both games a couple years after it launched.

Anyhoot,i would love to see Brad in charge of a game,but allow him to be creative,don't try to mak eanother Ev erquest,that design is worn out.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

4/21/13 12:26:13 AM#30
Originally posted by Wizardry

I do like Brad but i feel the entire MMORPG team at SOE is not creative enough.TYhey just keep churning out the same old same old.

 

huh?

Started with EQ

Then a big sci fi sandbox

console exclusive MMORPG

a mmo shooter

then the first real themepark (along with WoW)

family-oriented, casual mmo

spy/stealh MMO in the works (cancelled)

actiony superhero MMO

sequel to the mmo shooter

and now a fantasy sandbox

 

Yeah, there is some overlap but the portfolio is very diverse overall.  that is one of their problems actually.

 

And the everquest design isnt worn out, many people want to see a return to it instead of another eq2/wow/lotro/swtor/rift

You like FFXI, thats EQ design.  thats what needs to come back IMO.

 

  fantasyfreak112

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 523

4/21/13 12:30:59 AM#31

Wait .. you want a game from a guy whose best work is a flop?

How do you know his next work won't be

a) too ambitious

b) shipping too early,

c) forced to be wowified?

 

^This

Mark Jacobs is in the same boat yet so many are pretending otherwise.

  ozmono

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1023

4/21/13 12:48:49 AM#32

I don't care if he is a failure or the lord of game developers until a concept is dangled in front of me. If he does try something that is unique or atleast offers a nice collection of features I may be interested but I don't give a dam about his pedigree.

You don't need big names to do something I'd be interested in. That goes for programmers and artist too. Infact I'm sure I'd prefer a higher number of competent developers working on a game than developers who worked on many other MMOs and as such demand a bloated salary or cut.

  User Deleted
4/21/13 11:29:08 AM#33
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112

Wait .. you want a game from a guy whose best work is a flop?

How do you know his next work won't be

a) too ambitious

b) shipping too early,

c) forced to be wowified?

 

^This

Mark Jacobs is in the same boat yet so many are pretending otherwise.

I really don't get all this hype for tired, old game designers. Brad has a few more sucesses under his belt, but Mark Jacobs is still a one-trick pony, IMO. Both are legends in their own minds, however. 

There's an old saying in software development: The first success is a fluke, the second is a gift, and the third gives you enough credibility to be able to negotiate a fourth.

  hercules

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/03
Posts: 4786

4/25/13 3:41:03 AM#34
Brad also had a style which meant unneccasary hardship and raid only for a select few.he also rather listen to few hardcore over general populace while at EQ.if he brings that same mentality to EQnext it will flop.maybe he has changed over the years hopefully.if not then SoE should drop him
  strykr619

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/07
Posts: 127

4/25/13 3:48:10 AM#35
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Arclan

We all know Vanguard...

1. was too ambitious
2. shipped 12 months too early
3. was forced to undergo WOWification prior to launch

So the game flopped, but if you take out the WoWification I think more would be playing it today.


So I'd really like another original Brad game; like EQ. I know I know, EQ was the result of a lot of very talented people working their tail off; not the 9 to 5 jokers we have today. But Brad had a big influence on major gameplay decisions.


On Brad's web site, he mentiones joining the EQ1 team two months ago. If so, that's cool. Hope he works on EQN, too, because I get more jaded every day and doubt EQN will be anything other than the flavor of the month.

Wait .. you want a game from a guy whose best work is a flop?

How do you know his next work won't be

a) too ambitious

b) shipping too early,

c) forced to be wowified?

 

Everquest was a flop? 

  strykr619

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/07
Posts: 127

4/25/13 4:01:24 AM#36
Originally posted by hercules
Brad also had a style which meant unneccasary hardship and raid only for a select few.he also rather listen to few hardcore over general populace while at EQ.if he brings that same mentality to EQnext it will flop.maybe he has changed over the years hopefully.if not then SoE should drop him

Maybe you never played everquest when brad was running it. Mcquaid was never a good boss, but he knew how to make games. 

vanila everquest, kunark and velious were EPIC. Didn't matter if you were a roleplayer, casual or raider. If you think eqnext will flop guess what buddy gamers like ME are willing to shell out 40+ dollars a month for a game like everquest in 2013. 

You don't need 7 million subs to be successful.If SoE can grab back the 500k players they had when everquest was king of the hill, they can charge 40-50 dollar a month subs and guess what WE WILL PAY IT 

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

4/25/13 4:06:54 AM#37
I'm thinking this guy, alongside Mr. Garriott, is a one hit wonder. They don't have anything more to give.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 478

4/25/13 4:34:45 AM#38
Originally posted by Kurush
Originally posted by delete5230
Originally posted by Kurush
Ramble Romble

Just a little heads up............This was hard to read !

WHAT.  IT WAS HARD TO READ.  TRY WRITING IT.

bah dum tsh

It was epic

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/25/13 4:44:41 AM#39
Well garriot may be a 1 hit wonder as far as mmos - uo.

But he has a ton of great single player games under his belt too.
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6544

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

4/25/13 4:53:37 AM#40
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112

Wait .. you want a game from a guy whose best work is a flop?

How do you know his next work won't be

a) too ambitious

b) shipping too early,

c) forced to be wowified?

 

^This

Mark Jacobs is in the same boat yet so many are pretending otherwise.

Nobody knows this.There is nothing wreong with VG it does everything Wow does and more,so it proves gaming is sheer luck and  marketing.

No game since Wow has maintained success,except maybe Eve but just like Wow it had no competition aside from Wow versus Eq2.

Technically VG surpasses most every game,which was imo Brad's purpose,to rival the best game out ther in EQ but doing it a tad better.

It is simple economics,EQ fanbois are there to stay,Wow fanbois are there to stay,it doesn't matter ifVG is 10x better,the fanbois will stay in their game.

Myself and probably a small minority will play other games based on merit and not weather we are a fan of Blizzard or not.

As of late devs are not doing anything better,they are simpl;y finding new marketinmg techniques to sell whjat is imo inferior products.They uise anything from different pay models to elaborate wording,to make their game sound better than it is.

I don't play VG,however i did and i do recognize it as a top 3 game of all time behind Eq2 and FFXI,for sheer scope of design.All three of these games brought the industry everything that exists,no other game has introduced anything aside from Blizzard and their group finder idea,which is not saying not much because the rest of the game does not encourage grouping,so a mute point.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

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