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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

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329 posts found
  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3302

Poacher killer.

4/24/13 2:42:18 PM#221
?Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cecropia
 

Then how do you explain the wild success of a huge virtual world perma death mod and soon to be standalone game that goes by the name of DayZ?

It is totally free. Until it makes some money, and becomes something like a WoT, it is not a big success yet.

On its website, it listed 1.7M unique players. That is really not very impressive for a totally free game. Even TOR has more than that, and some here think TOR is a failure.

In fact, the War Z would be a better gauge .. and that is currently at #49 in xfire.

Go look at xfire top 20 games. How many are focusing on virtual worlds? The best virtual world game is Eve online .. and it is at #24 behind Aion.

So "wild success" of a mob .. is really not wild successes like selling 12M boxes as Diablo 3 has done.

You have no idea what you're talking about. The mod (not mob) was never free; you had to purchase Arma 2 in addition to an expansion to play DayZ. Four months after released IGN was calling it "one of the most popular PC games in the world".

Also Xfuckingfire again? You really are a funny fellow ;)

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20237

4/24/13 2:54:50 PM#222
Originally posted by Cecropia
 

You have no idea what you're talking about. The mod (not mob) was never free; you had to purchase Arma 2 in addition to an expansion to play DayZ. Four months after released IGN was calling it "one of the most popular PC games in the world".

Also Xfuckingfire again? You really are a funny fellow ;)

And you have no numbers to show. The best number is 1.7M number on its website .. and that is a small number for a free mod. Oh ... have to buy ARMA2 .. many already have ARMA2.

And your best example is a mod, not even a proper game. Tell me, which virtual world MMO is successful. Which is has sold 12M boxes? Which one has millions of sub?

The best is Eve, with not even a million subs .. with many years to build its audience no less. Even TOR, a failure in many's eyes, went from 0 to 4x Eve's number in a month.

 

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3302

Poacher killer.

4/24/13 3:23:13 PM#223
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cecropia
 

You have no idea what you're talking about. The mod (not mob) was never free; you had to purchase Arma 2 in addition to an expansion to play DayZ. Four months after released IGN was calling it "one of the most popular PC games in the world".

Also Xfuckingfire again? You really are a funny fellow ;)

And you have no numbers to show. The best number is 1.7M number on its website .. and that is a small number for a free mod. Oh ... have to buy ARMA2 .. many already have ARMA2.

And your best example is a mod, not even a proper game. Tell me, which virtual world MMO is successful. Which is has sold 12M boxes? Which one has millions of sub?

The best is Eve, with not even a million subs .. with many years to build its audience no less. Even TOR, a failure in many's eyes, went from 0 to 4x Eve's number in a month.

 

So you have to match the top selling games in order to be considered a success? That's a very intelligent argument you have there  Mr. Seldon, lol.

Oh yeah, and the Star Wars IP tends to attract a lot of attention in case you did not know. And how long did that monster take to go "F2P"? Your poinst are are silly at best, and the fact still stands that if a virtual world mod with such brutal mechanics such a perma death in addition to being very difficult to get it to run on your PC can pull in so many people, obviously this isn't something that few players want. You can do the twist as you do all the time, but you're not slippery enough to escape reality.

Wait and see though, the standalone is coming, and I bet it's reception will probably be a bit surprising and disappointing for you.

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20237

4/24/13 3:25:50 PM#224
Originally posted by Cecropia

Wait and see though, the standalone is coming, and I bet it's reception will probably be a bit surprising and disappointing for you.

Oh... we will certainly watch that. And i doubt i will be disappointed. There are plenty of games that i like that are doing well, and having sequels. So whether this game does well or not .. is pretty much meh to me.

 

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3302

Poacher killer.

4/24/13 3:27:57 PM#225
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cecropia

Wait and see though, the standalone is coming, and I bet it's reception will probably be a bit surprising and disappointing for you.

Oh... we will certainly watch that. And i doubt i will be disappointed. There are plenty of games that i like that are doing well, and having sequels. So whether this game does well or not .. is pretty much meh to me.

 

Your likes and dislikes are not relevant to the discussion. What a bizarre response.

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/24/13 3:29:00 PM#226


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cecropia

 
You have no idea what you're talking about. The mod (not mob) was never free; you had to purchase Arma 2 in addition to an expansion to play DayZ. Four months after released IGN was calling it "one of the most popular PC games in the world". Also Xfuckingfire again? You really are a funny fellow ;)
And you have no numbers to show. The best number is 1.7M number on its website .. and that is a small number for a free mod. Oh ... have to buy ARMA2 .. many already have ARMA2.

And your best example is a mod, not even a proper game. Tell me, which virtual world MMO is successful. Which is has sold 12M boxes? Which one has millions of sub?

The best is Eve, with not even a million subs .. with many years to build its audience no less. Even TOR, a failure in many's eyes, went from 0 to 4x Eve's number in a month.

 




That's 1.7 Million characters. If your character dies 128 times, that ticker adds 128 characters to the game. There's no way to tell how many actual players have played.

It has been said that however many copies of Arma II sold, they sold even more after the mod released. They sold enough new copies of the game that they dedicated resources to developing the mod, so it is a success.

I agree that the success of that mod doesn't mean that there is a market for an MMO based around a free form world with little or no game play. It may or may not have any implications for MMOs at all.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Muke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1628

4/24/13 3:32:54 PM#227
Originally posted by tixylix

 Really the only MMO out there now which still feels like one is EVE because CCP get it, they know how to maintain a virtual world and not just how to create a game. They don't do anything stupid like add 10 more levels every expansion,


The only mistake CCP makes is making sure a RMT machine built around moon materials and the devs exists because they hired the same players who were leaders of the groups holding the moons, and they themselves are playing members of those factions so get all benefits that come with it.

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20237

4/24/13 3:40:17 PM#228
Originally posted by lizardbones


It has been said that however many copies of Arma II sold, they sold even more after the mod released. They sold enough new copies of the game that they dedicated resources to developing the mod, so it is a success.

 

If that is the yardstick of success, then we have 10x of F2P themepark as successful. DDO, LOTRO, STO, DCUO ... are all successful enough to develop more content.

And thtat is with all the competition in that part of the market.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3302

Poacher killer.

4/24/13 3:41:33 PM#229
Originally posted by lizardbones

That's 1.7 Million characters. If your character dies 128 times, that ticker adds 128 characters to the game. There's no way to tell how many actual players have played.

It has been said that however many copies of Arma II sold, they sold even more after the mod released. They sold enough new copies of the game that they dedicated resources to developing the mod, so it is a success.

I agree that the success of that mod doesn't mean that there is a market for an MMO based around a free form world with little or no game play. It may or may not have any implications for MMOs at all.

"By August 2012, three months after release, the mod had registered more than one million unique users." From the wiki.

It will interesting to see how the real game fares.

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/24/13 3:54:39 PM#230


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones It has been said that however many copies of Arma II sold, they sold even more after the mod released. They sold enough new copies of the game that they dedicated resources to developing the mod, so it is a success.  
If that is the yardstick of success, then we have 10x of F2P themepark as successful. DDO, LOTRO, STO, DCUO ... are all successful enough to develop more content.

And thtat is with all the competition in that part of the market.




They apparently got a million registered players. That is a good benchmark, even for MMOs.

Again, I don't think this leads directly to saying that you could do the same thing with an MMO or that it means there's a hidden market of people who just want a virtual world as an MMO. If that were the case, there would be a Minecraft MMO right now. Ten million copies of Minecraft for the PC have been sold. It has certainly spawned some games, but none of them are as successful as Minecraft and it hasn't spawned any MMOs that I'm aware of.

WarZ is the closest approximation of DayZ as an MMO, and the common point is more the zombies and the PvP, not the virtual world.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2514

World > Quest Progression

4/24/13 4:10:53 PM#231
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Aelious
People will follow quality. When there are quality "virtual world" type MMOs out we'll know how popular they can be. Right now what we know is that quality themepark games do attract players. Is it because it's a themepark or because it's a quality game? Would they prefer the same quality title in a more virtual world?

We'll know in the next few years I think.

Actually it's always game-quality that matters to players.

Look back through the history of videogames -- at games vs. simulation -- and you'll notice simulations (even the best ones) have never surpassed games.

Virtual worlds are simulations.

If you wanted to make a successful virtual world, you'd turn it into a game first.  A sandbox which is a strong game would do very well*.  But without that focus on gameplay, virtual worlds will do poorly just like simulation games.

(* I'd cite Sim City here, if it wasn't for their terrible launch turning the internet's unforgiving wrath upon it.  Sim City has a density to interesting decisions which allows it to have fantastically fun gameplay, while also (mostly) being a simulation.  Only mostly a simulation, because it's clear certain design decisions were made to promote fun gameplay rather than to be a meticulously realistic city simulation.  But it's that sacrifice of realism for gameplay which makes it a fun game.)

 

I see why but you made a connection between SP simulations and VW MMOs.  Different platform, different genre and different gameplay purpose.  Plus, the history of MMOs as we know them is a lot shorter than PC games so it's hard to compare the two.  For instance the "WoW bubble" has lasted a large portion of MMO history and put genre on a path that is just now getting more diverse.  The reason I say this is because out of all the possible platforms to have a virtual world, an MMO would fit the best and be favored by people more than SP games.

 

I agree with you about the "game" portion being important and I don't think you have to sacrifice one for the other.  The VW part IMO is more about the setting in which to put the game.  I know we all carry our idea of what "virtual world" means .

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/24/13 4:17:45 PM#232
Originally posted by ltank 

Why would we look at Xfire rankings that include non MMO's when we are clearly talking about MMOs here on this website which is dedicated to MMOs. Don't try and move the goalposts.

That's irrelevant.

Why would we look at additional data?  To further prove the point that virtual worlds (simulations) have always been, currently are, and will always be niche.  We look at past the past to plan for the future.

If you look at just MMOs, that's what the data shows.

If you look at all games, that's what the data shows.

If you look at current data, that's what the data shows.

If you look at historic data of the past 30+ years of the game industry, that's what the data shows.

  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1139

 
OP  4/24/13 4:44:05 PM#233
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cecropia

 
You have no idea what you're talking about. The mod (not mob) was never free; you had to purchase Arma 2 in addition to an expansion to play DayZ. Four months after released IGN was calling it "one of the most popular PC games in the world". Also Xfuckingfire again? You really are a funny fellow ;)
And you have no numbers to show. The best number is 1.7M number on its website .. and that is a small number for a free mod. Oh ... have to buy ARMA2 .. many already have ARMA2.

 

And your best example is a mod, not even a proper game. Tell me, which virtual world MMO is successful. Which is has sold 12M boxes? Which one has millions of sub?

The best is Eve, with not even a million subs .. with many years to build its audience no less. Even TOR, a failure in many's eyes, went from 0 to 4x Eve's number in a month.

 




That's 1.7 Million characters. If your character dies 128 times, that ticker adds 128 characters to the game. There's no way to tell how many actual players have played.

It has been said that however many copies of Arma II sold, they sold even more after the mod released. They sold enough new copies of the game that they dedicated resources to developing the mod, so it is a success.

I agree that the success of that mod doesn't mean that there is a market for an MMO based around a free form world with little or no game play. It may or may not have any implications for MMOs at all.

 

 

No 1.7 million unique players, says so on the site.

 

Sadly though everyone I know has gotten bored and are waiting for the SA.

  Sulaa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/11
Posts: 906

4/24/13 4:51:40 PM#234
It's not a problem with MMOs and even with MMORPGs in general.  Most players don't want games that take virtual world concept in mind when designing a game.  There is niche for that kind of MMORPGs though.
  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

4/24/13 4:54:27 PM#235


Originally posted by Cecropia
...Four months after released IGN was calling it "one of the most popular PC games in the world".


And this occurs even though hacking is such a problem in the game/mod. I bet many players are like me and have bypassed that mod entirely and are waiting for the standalone. Major kudos to the DayZ dev team who seem to be breaking new ground on anti-hacking; stuff that Planetside-2 and other competitive games should learn from.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/24/13 5:05:30 PM#236


Originally posted by tixylix

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cecropia

 
You have no idea what you're talking about. The mod (not mob) was never free; you had to purchase Arma 2 in addition to an expansion to play DayZ. Four months after released IGN was calling it "one of the most popular PC games in the world". Also Xfuckingfire again? You really are a funny fellow ;)
And you have no numbers to show. The best number is 1.7M number on its website .. and that is a small number for a free mod. Oh ... have to buy ARMA2 .. many already have ARMA2.   And your best example is a mod, not even a proper game. Tell me, which virtual world MMO is successful. Which is has sold 12M boxes? Which one has millions of sub? The best is Eve, with not even a million subs .. with many years to build its audience no less. Even TOR, a failure in many's eyes, went from 0 to 4x Eve's number in a month.  
That's 1.7 Million characters. If your character dies 128 times, that ticker adds 128 characters to the game. There's no way to tell how many actual players have played. It has been said that however many copies of Arma II sold, they sold even more after the mod released. They sold enough new copies of the game that they dedicated resources to developing the mod, so it is a success. I agree that the success of that mod doesn't mean that there is a market for an MMO based around a free form world with little or no game play. It may or may not have any implications for MMOs at all.  
 

No 1.7 million unique players, says so on the site.

 

Sadly though everyone I know has gotten bored and are waiting for the SA.




That it does. It's been awhile since I looked at the site and the last time I looked, it had half a million characters, so you can tell it's been awhile. :-)

I am not knocking the mod or the mod's success. It's obviously been successful. I just don't see the parallel between this mod and making a virtual world MMO. The world of DayZ isn't the only feature of the game, and I would argue that it's not the most important feature. I would even say it's possible to write a much better virtual world than what DayZ has.

I'm not even saying that a virtual world isn't important or beneficial to making a game a good game. I think the world is very important, regardless of whether the game is an MMO or not. I do think if a game's sole defining feature is the virtual world, that game will not be successful. The "game" is more important. In fact, the virtual world is simply a part of the "game".

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

4/24/13 10:18:39 PM#237
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by tixylix

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cecropia

 
You have no idea what you're talking about. The mod (not mob) was never free; you had to purchase Arma 2 in addition to an expansion to play DayZ. Four months after released IGN was calling it "one of the most popular PC games in the world". Also Xfuckingfire again? You really are a funny fellow ;)
And you have no numbers to show. The best number is 1.7M number on its website .. and that is a small number for a free mod. Oh ... have to buy ARMA2 .. many already have ARMA2.   And your best example is a mod, not even a proper game. Tell me, which virtual world MMO is successful. Which is has sold 12M boxes? Which one has millions of sub? The best is Eve, with not even a million subs .. with many years to build its audience no less. Even TOR, a failure in many's eyes, went from 0 to 4x Eve's number in a month.  
That's 1.7 Million characters. If your character dies 128 times, that ticker adds 128 characters to the game. There's no way to tell how many actual players have played. It has been said that however many copies of Arma II sold, they sold even more after the mod released. They sold enough new copies of the game that they dedicated resources to developing the mod, so it is a success. I agree that the success of that mod doesn't mean that there is a market for an MMO based around a free form world with little or no game play. It may or may not have any implications for MMOs at all.  
 

 

No 1.7 million unique players, says so on the site.

 

Sadly though everyone I know has gotten bored and are waiting for the SA.




That it does. It's been awhile since I looked at the site and the last time I looked, it had half a million characters, so you can tell it's been awhile. :-)

I am not knocking the mod or the mod's success. It's obviously been successful. I just don't see the parallel between this mod and making a virtual world MMO. The world of DayZ isn't the only feature of the game, and I would argue that it's not the most important feature. I would even say it's possible to write a much better virtual world than what DayZ has.

I'm not even saying that a virtual world isn't important or beneficial to making a game a good game. I think the world is very important, regardless of whether the game is an MMO or not. I do think if a game's sole defining feature is the virtual world, that game will not be successful. The "game" is more important. In fact, the virtual world is simply a part of the "game".

 

Yes, and even if it's a Sandbox Worldly game that's still the case. The question is, what sort of "game"?

Once upon a time....

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1170

4/24/13 10:28:38 PM#238
Originally posted by FromHell

Fear not... 

 

EQ Next

Star Citizen

World of Darkness (also by CCP)

Elite Dangerous

Archeage

 

those five "virtual world "titles alone will probably keep many people busy for at least a decade

All I can say is In b4 they all end up somehow feeling the newest wow clone in how they play, with the exception of archeage. Devs are just too scared to try anything diffrent due to the costs, and I don't blame em, when the garbage like wow and such they make today is enough why try to do anything diffrent? I wish they would but yeah, most mmo's that have tried something diffrent but most of them have failed horribly.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  Citor

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 8

4/24/13 10:58:50 PM#239
Maybe the problem is not in the developers of MMO maybe the prob is in us. Expect that we dont satisfy ourselves with what are currently in the market. and people had different perpective and likes about the game. 
  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/25/13 1:46:25 AM#240
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by ltank 

Why would we look at Xfire rankings that include non MMO's when we are clearly talking about MMOs here on this website which is dedicated to MMOs. Don't try and move the goalposts.

That's irrelevant.

Why would we look at additional data?  To further prove the point that virtual worlds (simulations) have always been, currently are, and will always be niche.  We look at past the past to plan for the future.

If you look at just MMOs, that's what the data shows.

If you look at all games, that's what the data shows.

If you look at current data, that's what the data shows.

If you look at historic data of the past 30+ years of the game industry, that's what the data shows.

 

This^

 

And MMORPG's are even moAr niche...    

 

Ironically it is these very niche MMORPG that we are suppose to be discussing here @ MMORPG.com... not Diablo3, etc..

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

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