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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

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329 posts found
  h0urg1ass

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/05
Posts: 288

4/23/13 2:31:40 PM#181
I'm always amused at how these thought provoking posts always degenerate in to useless squabbling over semantics.  I think we all know what seamless means, no matter what the technology is behind it.  Why has that become the point of this thread?
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

4/23/13 2:36:04 PM#182
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones In comparison, Skyrim has a very open and dynamic world. How much time was spent staring at the screen waiting for something to complete, where there was nothing else happening? I would be willing to bet there was little or no equivalent to staring at a progress meter, yet Skyrim seems to have a well developed virtual world. Most waiting in MMOs is just that, waiting for the clock to tick by so developers can charge a little more money. It isn't necessary for the virtual world to be well done.  
Zero. If you visit a place before, click on a button and you telepor there. If there is a shop closed, click a button and time advances.

 

Waiting and nothing happens is bad game design, and not entertaining. Back in EQ days, that is what you have to endure if you want to play an online RPG with your friend (unless you want to play UO, which is worse).

It is great that no devs will go that path again. And if some niche devs happen to try again, i am glad there are plenty of alternatives and i can just ignore them.




It always worries me when you and I seem to be in agreement about something. I feel like I need to look over my shoulder because Darth Vader is standing there with a plate of cookies.

 

Embrace your dark side. It is more fun :)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

4/23/13 2:36:56 PM#183
Originally posted by h0urg1ass
I'm always amused at how these thought provoking posts always degenerate in to useless squabbling over semantics.  I think we all know what seamless means, no matter what the technology is behind it.  Why has that become the point of this thread?

and we haven't discussed what "mmorpg" means ... again ... yet.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

4/23/13 2:37:42 PM#184
Originally posted by bcbully

 

It virtual worlds there are down times and inconveience.

Yeah .. That is why some games minimize the virtual world .. or some even don't have one in the first place.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3266

Poacher killer.

4/23/13 2:41:04 PM#185
Originally posted by h0urg1ass
I'm always amused at how these thought provoking posts always degenerate in to useless squabbling over semantics.  I think we all know what seamless means, no matter what the technology is behind it.  Why has that become the point of this thread?

Take a quick cruise through nariusseldon's post history and it will become crystal clear. Some folks make it a hobby to disrupt internet forum threads. /shrug

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

4/23/13 2:43:38 PM#186
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by h0urg1ass
I'm always amused at how these thought provoking posts always degenerate in to useless squabbling over semantics.  I think we all know what seamless means, no matter what the technology is behind it.  Why has that become the point of this thread?

Take a quick cruise through nariusseldon's post history and it will become crystal clear. Some folks make it a hobby to disrupt internet forum threads. /shrug

Can you actually read? I didn't make a single post about what "seamless" mean.

  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1280

4/23/13 2:46:33 PM#187
Untill I can touch, smell and taste in a virtual world, they will always be games to me.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/23/13 10:45:35 PM#188
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by Axehilt
 

Open World means: zoneless...      without zones walls, a developer cannat make 2 cities right next to each other, then make a zone wall+ forest, so it takes 20 minutes to walk around..

 

You are mistaken seamless, to mean zoneless.. (?) they is different alltogether. You claim to be part of the industry, yet you (again) illustrate you know very little of the basic types of games and their outlaying technology.

Ok, lets get one thing straight: Zoning is the industry standard technique to handle players and loading assets. Pretty much all MMOs use them regardless of being entirely open world or not. World of Warcraft is zoned. Vanguard is zoned. Eve Online is zoned.

People use the term "seamless" when they refer to the fact that you can move through these zones "seamlessly" i.e. without a loading screen.

I think Quizzical would be happy to explain the technology further, or maybe you should look up some of the threads where he has explained how and why the stuff works the way it works.

Point is, you're wrong or you're intentionally disruptive.

 

I've been reading quizzical's posts for years.  But you are incoorect in your assumptions.

 

Zoning use to be the only way in which you could load assests, now they can be streamed on-the-fly..    The ideal of hitting a zone and loading all those assets before you can continue is a very old server technology. That form of server is so cheap, that me and you can make a WoW clone and do exactly that... very easily.

Zone games (ie: themeparks) are technically easy to make...

 

 

WoW is zoned...

It has fake zones walls and a peicemeal Continents.  Vanguard is seamless open world...  though it has "chunks" which are used to load/stream in assets as the players moves about their gameworld. But there are no zones in the game...   If you see a mountain, you can travel, or fly to it. No zones walls. World of Warcraft is all zones, with zones walls.

There is a clear line drawn and one that makes a gameworld super expensive, & thus costing your customers more.

 

 

understand, Seamless has a dual meaning...     no zone walls..   & (or) the crossing of zones is seamless without the player's knowledge. 

For instance, even though DOAC had zones, transfering between them was seamless...  

 

Vangaurd is not seamless.  It has zone walls, you are right they are called chunk lines but they do the same thing.  They are not physical barriers like a mountain but they do have a pause in game play to load up assets, just like a zone wall.

Yes it is open world as in you can go anywhere but it is not seamless. 

All they did was do away with a loading screen.  Crossing them, depending on the performance at the time, is a few seconds to several minutes.

 

 

LOL...Venge u really are just lip service, arn't you...?

 

Vanguard does not have a zone walls... there is zero artificial barriers within the game, like there is with World of Warcraft. You are confusing the technicality of ZONE made game, verse one that uses assets loading via chunking, but in an open world.

Your post has done nothing except illustrate the fact that you do not understand the technical difference, and probably why you have a hard time identifying game mechanics and game types..  

 

 

Btw.. the "chunks" in Vanguard are there to load non-static assets..  other people, their armor, new buildings that were built, etc..     not the actual geography. Secondly, that server technology is 10 years old now...   & arguing any more is just proving my over-all point how todays developers are going the easy cheap route using zones instead of Open World.

You can still "load" an area in an Open World, but you are not artificially restricted by an invisable walls point you towards a town, etc..   Most of todays Open Worlds stream data, so they are seamless...  but you can still "load" assets in an Open World, that doesn't change it type, or design.

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4775

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/23/13 11:21:38 PM#189

The chunk lines are the zone walls.  They do everything zone walls do.  The game pauses and loads up the assests.  The only thing that is different is there is no loading screen.

It probably isn't loading as much as old zones in EQ or DAOC but it is fact the game is loading up assets and the game does pause.  From the view of the person looking at it, it is literally the exact same thing minus the loading screen.  There is still a pause in the game sometimes for several minutes, it is still loading things up. 

The same thing.

 

EQ - cross zone line, game pauses from several seconds to several minutes to load up various assets.  See loading screen.

VG - cross chunk line, game pauses from several seconds to several minutes to load up various assets.  No loading screen.

Not enough different from the viewers side.  Technically it may not be a "zone wall" but it is doing the same thing for the same reasons and from the users side is the same thing with the same results.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Magiknight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

4/23/13 11:32:22 PM#190
Originally posted by bopice12
Originally posted by koboldfodder

If they re-released original Everquest (and all it's expansions) with a massive updated graphics engine it would be (yet again) a smash hit.

 

There is a reason for that.

I agree.   eq + kunark , velious.    

 

EQ classic is the most fun addictive mmo by far.    I still play it . on eq mac.

 

reasons...  no questing to level..................................................... no level reqs on items.  ............  challenge....... risk...... shit gets scary.... etc etc....  traveling mattered........... factions that mattered........ i could go on and on.  Loot that mattered.....  rare named with rare drops . ..........OPEN dungeons........ etc etc.  everyone wasn't the same.....

eqoa is the 2nd best mmo.     <  isle of dread zone.... best zone ever in a mmo.

wow 3rd. < used to feel more like a world.  was something new. after soe changed eq1 into a Entirely different game in 2002. i complained about the quest grind of wow . 2 weeks after launch though.  first 50 on my server<<

gw2 4th.  very fun combat.  more like a action game.  

 

 

come to eq mac or p1999 if you want to play in the only true mmorpg left.   14 years of mmo'ing .   games are all about money now.   eq 1999 was made for the love of bringing DD to and onine world. not mainly for money.  They slept under their desks for months when they weremaking it..!!!!

 

The good old days.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/24/13 12:06:50 AM#191
Originally posted by Phelcher

Open World means: zoneless...      without zones walls, a developer cannat make 2 cities right next to each other, then make a zone wall+ forest, so it takes 20 minutes to walk around.. 

You are mistaken seamless, to mean zoneless.. (?) they is different alltogether. You claim to be part of the industry, yet you (again) illustrate you know very little of the basic types of games and their outlaying technology.

Your point seems pretty irrelevant given that I can freely fly between the zones at any point.  Why do you feel this is at all relevant to the discussion?

Can you travel anywhere around a large land mass with no load time?  Then it's open world.

Whether the connections between zones are controlled (EVE) or more open (AC1) has no bearing on whether a game is open world.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12118

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

4/24/13 1:04:07 AM#192
Originally posted by h0urg1ass
I'm always amused at how these thought provoking posts always degenerate in to useless squabbling over semantics.  I think we all know what seamless means, no matter what the technology is behind it.  Why has that become the point of this thread?

It's easy to sidetrack this crowd. Right now, Phelch has several people on a leash and I don't think they realize it. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4775

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/24/13 1:33:28 AM#193

We, or at least I, realize it.  It's just hard to let inane comments that twist what you said or what was intended go :)

of course I wouldn't have really called the OP a thought provoking post, more like a baiting post.

But of course thats why we come here isn't it?  Entertainment?  Certainly not for the quality haha.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4745

4/24/13 1:49:44 AM#194
Originally posted by mmoguy43

I don't want plain virtual worlds.

I don't want plain games either, not for the ideal MMORPG anyway.

I want a game within a virtual world. Something like Skyrim and it doesn't even have to have a massive amount of players in a zone.

Basically...Fun game, lots of variety and options. And a world that brings a lot of longevity and content that doesn't get old in the first play through nor is the progression short with the level cap the raiding/grinding end.

Games have been going in that direction already.

Honestly, it's nearly impossible to have both. In order to make something massively multiplayer, you need to give up some of the mechanics single player games have, in favor of more redundant / replayable mechanics. In order to make a virtual world, you generally have to sacrifice a lot of gameplay elements in order to make it function properly. This tends to mean more empty environments, lower graphics quality, limited content in favor of more repeatable / grindy activities.

Simply put, especially in today's climate, it's either action packed gameplay that feels more like a 'game', or dull / repetative gameplay that's more 'immersive'. For example, look at DF/UW. Fairly sandboxy, but there's a lot of monotony involved to support such a system. Some players enjoy it as part of a necessity for the game to work. Many do not. There's a reason it's a fairly niche game.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/24/13 2:07:21 AM#195
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

The chunk lines are the zone walls.  They do everything zone walls do.  The game pauses and loads up the assests.  The only thing that is different is there is no loading screen.

It probably isn't loading as much as old zones in EQ or DAOC but it is fact the game is loading up assets and the game does pause.  From the view of the person looking at it, it is literally the exact same thing minus the loading screen.  There is still a pause in the game sometimes for several minutes, it is still loading things up. 

The same thing.

 

EQ - cross zone line, game pauses from several seconds to several minutes to load up various assets.  See loading screen.

VG - cross chunk line, game pauses from several seconds to several minutes to load up various assets.  No loading screen.

Not enough different from the viewers side.  Technically it may not be a "zone wall" but it is doing the same thing for the same reasons and from the users side is the same thing with the same results.

LOL^

 

Again, u are trying to troll me, by playing games with words..?  A zone wall is just that,..  a wall. Impassable!!

 

 

I think you are confused with a zone wall, being a zone line...  A zone line, is when u reach the physical limit of a zone, and must pass on into another zone, so that when u hit the zone line, u ar removed from the game, then reloaded into another zone, with all the people in that zone.  

 

A zone wall is the invisible, unpassable wall...  that makes up the bounderies of the zone...   they have nothing to do with zoning into another zone, they are they to prevent such a thing...  

Again... a zone wall is an artifical wall that exist, that makes up the actual borders of that zone, so that you cannot leave it, unless you find a zone line to pass over..   

 

 

 

For example: World of Warcraft

When in Auberdine, One cannot travel due east to get to the felwood...   there is an artifical zone wall preventing that. One must travel due south past/near Astraraar, then northeast into felwood. All because of a fake, artifical zone wall. As you are essentially moving to zone, to zone...  as the developers wants & funnels you to... thus shoehorn style of play.

(ie: themepark)

 

 

Vanguard has none of that... it has zero zone walls.  It just happens to use increments of space as when to dump & reload game assets. Those "chunk" lines can be moved all over and do not effect the geography, or the game..  those chunks are not physical barriers, they are asset loading triggers. Not a seperate zone server...  as a typical EQ/WoW/DAOC zone.

 

Coincidentally, "Open World" does not mean seamless...  it means it is open & free from artifical restriction. (ie zone walls)

 

 

 

*Understand, seamless means it streams data, or pre-asset loading. (Vanguard is not seamless...   but it is open world)

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

4/24/13 3:19:43 AM#196
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

Zones and instances were what we used to talk about, when we had more open worlds and a reason to have them. Today we have MMO's which lead you on a path about 200ft across with the occassional more open area. Yet we still have zones and instances.

You do get the feeling MMO's could become games where we run along a path 20 feet across and we would still have zones and instances. :D

Yeh. Because there is less and less reason to have a virtual world. Look at highly acclaimed games like PoE .. it is like a public zone, and instanced gameplay.

While it may not be a MMO by your definition, the "proper" MMOs are competing with games like that.

 

PoE is an interesting example, they have used an isometic look down like old Ultima did. This approach gives a bigger feeling of space to my eyes as you see the other side of the wall. You see whats outside of the path. I have always been a true 3D fan though, you can't beat that. The thing is though, that PoE is to Ultima what Rift, SWTOR etc are to EQ and Lotro. Smaller, downsized versions. Yes its meant to be like Diablo, but it could be much bigger.

I quite like some of the ideas they are trying out at PoE actually, but as I always say wait until it launches. Even with F2P games, why play a unifinshed beta when you can play the finished, polished product later?

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5514

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

4/24/13 4:42:16 AM#197
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by h0urg1ass
I'm always amused at how these thought provoking posts always degenerate in to useless squabbling over semantics.  I think we all know what seamless means, no matter what the technology is behind it.  Why has that become the point of this thread?

It's easy to sidetrack this crowd. Right now, Phelch has several people on a leash and I don't think they realize it. 

Naw, I suspected he was intentionally disruptive. I said so in my post. He's wrong about a couple of things right now, but f*** if I'm going to correct him. Let somebody else do it.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/24/13 9:46:52 AM#198
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by h0urg1ass
I'm always amused at how these thought provoking posts always degenerate in to useless squabbling over semantics.  I think we all know what seamless means, no matter what the technology is behind it.  Why has that become the point of this thread?

It's easy to sidetrack this crowd. Right now, Phelch has several people on a leash and I don't think they realize it. 

Naw, I suspected he was intentionally disruptive. I said so in my post. He's wrong about a couple of things right now, but f*** if I'm going to correct him. Let somebody else do it.

 

 

Bcuz you are incapable of correcting me...    you are using ego & bravado, instead of actual knowledge. That is the reason Quiz hasn't tapped this thread, bcuz he understand the technicalities that drive the industry... server structure is the biggest technicality of them all..!

You only understand how these developers have presented games to the public... how they have put shinny glitzy things in their games, so that you forget there are zone walls. You don't understand why there are particular zone walls, though... do you?   Why the developers made Auberdine so close to a lvl 40 felwood and seperated them by 20 feet, with an invisibale zone wall...

 

Point being here that many people don't understand the technical side of MMORPG (or, mmo)..  they do not see (extrapolated) how a new game given it's server type/structure already has technical limitations, ... yet we still have to endure next 3 years is newbies on the forums telling the Dev's they want this changed, or something needs to be like this... with this type of game mechanic, etc..

All-the-while^, not understanding that it cannot be implamented given the dev's server structure.

 

 

 

Example: contrasting server structure

Rift is different, because it server technology is different.... so different that they highlighted their net-code/server structure and actually showcased it as "dynamic events". Additionally, when SOE developed virtualized spaces in their net-code/servers, they went overbaord with LDON and instancing...   because that allowed them to easily provide cheap made to order dungeons (x 100).

That technology can be done easily today...  that is why Narius is here marketing all his Rust Hearts & Scarlet Blade type mmos to everyone. A bunch of College students could built and make a game like Allods, or Aion..   though why, those game would just be a rehash thempark..suck, just like Allods.

Without fail, greedy Developers go the cheap route everytime (ie: instancing), because they really are not in love with their game, they just want return on their investment as soon as possible.

 

Money isn't everything...    Kickstarter is the best thing to happen to roleplaying games since TSR..

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/24/13 10:14:47 AM#199
Originally posted by Phelcher 

Again, u are trying to troll me, by playing games with words..?  A zone wall is just that,..  a wall. Impassable!!

I'm pretty sure you're trying to troll all of us by insisting this matters. At all.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5514

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

4/24/13 10:17:24 AM#200
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by h0urg1ass
I'm always amused at how these thought provoking posts always degenerate in to useless squabbling over semantics.  I think we all know what seamless means, no matter what the technology is behind it.  Why has that become the point of this thread?

It's easy to sidetrack this crowd. Right now, Phelch has several people on a leash and I don't think they realize it. 

Naw, I suspected he was intentionally disruptive. I said so in my post. He's wrong about a couple of things right now, but f*** if I'm going to correct him. Let somebody else do it.

 

 

Bcuz you are incapable of correcting me...    you are using ego & bravado, instead of actual knowledge. That is the reason Quiz hasn't tapped this thread, bcuz he understand the technicalities that drive the industry... server structure is the biggest technicality of them all..!

You only understand how these developers have presented games to the public... how they have put shinny glitzy things in their games, so that you forget there are zone walls. You don't understand why there are particular zone walls, though... do you?   Why the developers made Auberdine so close to a lvl 40 felwood and seperated them by 20 feet, with an invisibale zone wall...

 

Point being here that many people don't understand the technical side of MMORPG (or, mmo)..  they do not see (extrapolated) how a new game given it's server type/structure already has technical limitations, ... yet we still have to endure next 3 years is newbies on the forums telling the Dev's they want this changed, or something needs to be like this... with this type of game mechanic, etc..

All-the-while^, not understanding that it cannot be implamented given the dev's server structure.

 

 

 

Example: contrasting server structure

Rift is different, because it server technology is different.... so different that they highlighted their net-code/server structure and actually showcased it as "dynamic events". Additionally, when SOE developed virtualized spaces in their net-code/servers, they went overbaord with LDON and instancing...   because that allowed them to easily provide cheap made to order dungeons (x 100).

That technology can be done easily today...  that is why Narius is here marketing all his Rust Hearts & Scarlet Blade type mmos to everyone. A bunch of College students could built and make a game like Allods, or Aion..   though why, those game would just be a rehash thempark..suck, just like Allods.

Without fail, greedy Developers go the cheap route everytime (ie: instancing), because they really are not in love with their game, they just want return on their investment as soon as possible.

 

Money isn't everything...    Kickstarter is the best thing to happen to roleplaying games since TSR..

No. You're focused on just the loading of assets part, which, granted, could be done several other ways. But you are forgetting the part how servers handle the players. Usually, one server handles one area/zone and the players in them. Near the borders two servers have to "juggle" player data so that you can see other players past the border. There was a fancy word for this, but I forget what it was.

Like someone else already told you. Vanguard is open world, but it is zoned. Just like any other game. Doesn't matter if you call them chunks. Doesn't matter if there's a mountainside there or not. They're zones.

Whatever you've been telling yourself, Making instances is largely a design decision. There are a number of gameplay reasons why a developer would want to implement instances. Also, the performance is better. The servers are cheaper, yes, but money is far from being the only deciding factor here.

To think its just pure laziness or greed is ludicrous. Tinfoil-hattery at its worst. You have no sensible argument supporting your claim.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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