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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What MMOs have the best build variety compared to PoE & Diablo 3?

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62 posts found
  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/19/13 8:59:37 PM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon

This, actually sounds pretty good and interesting. Do you know about mage/wiz type builds? Too bad it is B2P .. and it still has no free trial, right?

There was a weekend trial this past weekend.

As for mage/wizard type builds...the Bunker Elementalist is the single hardest build to play effectively in any single MMORPG ever made...and I have been playing them since Meridian 59 back in 1996. To be able to switch out between 4 different skill sets to keep up buffs, heals, DoTs, CCs and DeBuffs is insanely fast paced and hard to do but the longer you can do it, the more frustraited the enemy can become :) (speaking of WvW of course).

A bunker can be DPS, Healer, tank and CCer all in the same build.

  tazarconan

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 1022

4/19/13 9:04:44 PM#22

The only  (medieval theme) mmorpg i can think off that offers real variety in builds compared to poe up to a point ,is Rift where u have talent trees (not small like wow), but each of these trees are class trees so u can have up to 3 class combo talents to pick.

The point ofc isnt to praise poe or other games that do it that way ,but to hope that future mmos to come will leave as much freedom to players to experiment create unique builds that work and let players play their toon the way they fell like and not guide it.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4852

4/19/13 9:05:08 PM#23

If you want build variety, in no particular order, I'd say the following MMOs:

Guild Wars 2

The Secret World

Eve (sci-fi MMO, may not be your cup of tea)

Champions Online

D C Universe

Planetside 2 (FPS, not fantasy, build variety similar to that of BF3)

I realize that some of those are fairly different genres of MMO, but I included them anyway because they do offer a lot of customization.

  Metanol

Elite Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 243

4/19/13 9:17:36 PM#24

If we go by the sheer number of choises, then TSW certainly has the most. Then I would argue against TSW's gameplay however, and even consider Rift better in every way, even with less customization there.

 

Now, some people would say that GW2 has "great" customization character build wise, but I found it way too restricted and limited, unlike Guild Wars 1, which was just amazing. But it wouldnt've worked in PvP in this "massive" scale, so, the whole game was dumbed down.

Come to think of it, Guild Wars 1 had some brilliant and unique multiclassing mechanics. You picked your "main" class and then your second class later. Your main class determined your armor proficiency and your unique attribute (warriors had strenght, rangers had expertise while mesmers got fast casting and elementalists energy storage), which really opened up some unique builds. Fast-casting mesmer/eles (instant meteor shower) or ranger/necromancers with touch spells were all nice to play! Not to mention real minion masters, not this GW2 stuff where minions feel more like utility on the side.

 

 

But! If I were free to name the best character customization from an MMO (gameplay wise), I would certainly stick to DDO. Why? Because it's D&D 3.5e. Well, close to that anyway. That means you can multiclass three classes (out of 13) and there's real variation to what classes can do. Sorcerers are rarely the same, unless built for similar nuking. Bards can be completely different from one another and same goes for pretty much every class, except barbarians. Greatsword wielding bards or archery focused rogues, it's all fair game.

You have strict restrictions (barbarians and bards cannot multiclass with paladins or monks due to alignment restrictions), but you still have more than enough freedom in the rules. Rogue/Wizards, Paladin/Fighters or Barbarian/Bards are none unheard of. Now, min-maxers might whine if you do something unique, but that's why DDO is a game to be played with a tight-knight party of friends. Or even just two to three friends, filling rest of the party with hirelings.

 

I'm not going to even comment on EVE, since I sadly do not have real experience with that. And if we're talking about RPGs, then Planetside has no place in this discussion either. Now, Global Agenda is on the very edge.. but I'd give that game some credit too.

We´re all dead, just say it.

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1091

4/19/13 9:34:59 PM#25
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Ortwig

I'll throw TSW's (b2p) build variety into the ring; over 772 million possible builds (though much fewer that are truly viable) and the ability for one character to equip any weapon, any ability and play any role.  Check out the below sites:

http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/

http://yokaiblog.wikidot.com/guides:build-mechanics

The number of possible builds don't interest me. Viable ones do.

Back in old WOW .. there are theoretically many combinations for each class.  But effectively 3 viable builds.

In D3 .. the combinations are also in the millions, but just for wiz, i can count 7-10 viable builds, even not considering variations (for example, if i just play archon, i will put on different armor depending on my purpose and what i fight .. speed farming run is different from boss/elite runs).

So how many viable ones .. or at lesat those people talk about and put it in a list .. in TSW?

Here's the math:

 

With 2 weapons, and 3 general segments, there are 13 potential Elite Active abilities. There is also a pool of 57 normal active abilities from which you can build your deck. Assuming that you want to use 1 Elite ability if it is available, that leaves 6 active abilities to be selected from the pool of 57. The math works out as follows:

1 Elite Active out of a pool of 13 = 13 combinations

6 normal actives out of a pool of 56 = 36,288,252 combinations

13 x  36,288,252 =  471,747,276 combinations for each weapon pair

Since there are 36 ways that you can select 2 weapons out of a pool of 9 options…

36 weapon pairs x  471,747,276 active combinations per pair =  16,982,901,936 possible ways to select your 7 active abilities at the end game.

 

Passives are a bit easier since they aren’t dependent on weapon selections. There are a total of 27 Elite Passive abilities and a pool of 225 normal passive abilities to select from when creating your build.

1 Elite Passive out of a pool of 27 = 27 combinations

6 normal passives out of a pool of 225 = 168,488,720,400 combinations

27 x 168,488,720,400 =  4,549,195,450,800 possible ways to select your 7 passive abilities

 

So with 16,982,901,936 different ways to select Active abilities and 4,549,195,450,800 ways to select passive abilities, you end up with …

16,982,901,936 x 4,549,195,450,800 = 77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 potential builds

If, once again, we use 1 millionth of 1 percent as our viability estimator, we still end up with 772,585,402 potential ways to build your character.

 

People are still finding builds in the game, so there's still discovery going on.  That said, people have created some cookie cutter starter decks (outside of the 45 that come with the game):

http://wordpress.tswguides.com/tsw-build-page/

http://yokaiblog.wikidot.com/yokaibuilds

Lots more decks appearing every day on the forums:

http://forums.secretworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

 
OP  4/21/13 8:45:32 PM#26

To make a comparison, let me do the math for Diablo 3.

I just open up my wiz. There is a total of acitive 25 abilities (i just counted), with 5 runes in each one (not counting empty rune, since there is no reason to use it).

There are 6 slots.

So the number of combination is 25!/19!/6! = 177100.

Now each of these 177100 combo, can have 5 variations in each of the slot, so now the number of possibilites

= 177100 x 5^6 = 2767187500

Now we have NOT count the combo of the passives yet. There are 15 passive, and you can choose 3.

So the number of possibilites goes up to 2767187500*(15! / 12!/3!) = 1.25907e+12

If we use 1 millionth of 1 percent as our viability estimator, we get 12591 viable builds. I highly doubt there are that many viable builds for the wizard class. My guess is that even if my knowledge is incompete, there probably aren't more than a hundred viable build, even if you count variations (like using a different passive but still mainly doing archon).

I think this one millionth of 1% that you use is WAY off.

 

 

  SyrusSyi

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/11
Posts: 367

4/21/13 8:46:47 PM#27
Diablo 3 and PoE are more like 4 man co-op games with item shops

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

 
OP  4/21/13 8:49:23 PM#28
Originally posted by SyrusSyi
Diablo 3 and PoE are more like 4 man co-op games with item shops

So? What does that have to do with build variety?

 

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1091

4/23/13 7:12:42 PM#29
Originally posted by nariusseldon

To make a comparison, let me do the math for Diablo 3.

I just open up my wiz. There is a total of acitive 25 abilities (i just counted), with 5 runes in each one (not counting empty rune, since there is no reason to use it).

There are 6 slots.

So the number of combination is 25!/19!/6! = 177100.

Now each of these 177100 combo, can have 5 variations in each of the slot, so now the number of possibilites

= 177100 x 5^6 = 2767187500

Now we have NOT count the combo of the passives yet. There are 15 passive, and you can choose 3.

So the number of possibilites goes up to 2767187500*(15! / 12!/3!) = 1.25907e+12

If we use 1 millionth of 1 percent as our viability estimator, we get 12591 viable builds. I highly doubt there are that many viable builds for the wizard class. My guess is that even if my knowledge is incompete, there probably aren't more than a hundred viable build, even if you count variations (like using a different passive but still mainly doing archon).

I think this one millionth of 1% that you use is WAY off.

Well, you're probably right about the estimator, but it's tough in the sense that there isn't any upper limit on builds determined as of yet -- as I say, people are still experimenting with and finding builds.  A good article on Massively yesterday on creating viable builds, though (not including PvP builds which folks tend to keep secret):

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/22/chaos-theory-perfecting-your-build-in-the-secret-world/

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

 
OP  4/23/13 11:32:11 PM#30
Originally posted by Ortwig
Originally posted by nariusseldon

To make a comparison, let me do the math for Diablo 3.

I just open up my wiz. There is a total of acitive 25 abilities (i just counted), with 5 runes in each one (not counting empty rune, since there is no reason to use it).

There are 6 slots.

So the number of combination is 25!/19!/6! = 177100.

Now each of these 177100 combo, can have 5 variations in each of the slot, so now the number of possibilites

= 177100 x 5^6 = 2767187500

Now we have NOT count the combo of the passives yet. There are 15 passive, and you can choose 3.

So the number of possibilites goes up to 2767187500*(15! / 12!/3!) = 1.25907e+12

If we use 1 millionth of 1 percent as our viability estimator, we get 12591 viable builds. I highly doubt there are that many viable builds for the wizard class. My guess is that even if my knowledge is incompete, there probably aren't more than a hundred viable build, even if you count variations (like using a different passive but still mainly doing archon).

I think this one millionth of 1% that you use is WAY off.

Well, you're probably right about the estimator, but it's tough in the sense that there isn't any upper limit on builds determined as of yet -- as I say, people are still experimenting with and finding builds.  A good article on Massively yesterday on creating viable builds, though (not including PvP builds which folks tend to keep secret):

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/22/chaos-theory-perfecting-your-build-in-the-secret-world/

Don't get me wrong .. TSW may as well have more viable builds than D3 eventually. We just don't know.

In any case, TSW seems to be a good game that i have to try. In another thread, i also found that it may have good story instances. So if it has good combat (with build variety) and good story mission .. it already have two main things i am looking for in a game.

 

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/24/13 11:01:28 AM#31

Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

 

Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

 

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11795

4/24/13 11:05:53 AM#32

its not a mmo (even tho i play it like one)

but GW1 has build variety on steroids

 

characters can dual class - mix and match 10 professions

you have hundreds of skills to choose from and 4 traits (per class) to specialize in

  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1380

We live for The One, we die for The One.

4/24/13 11:18:39 AM#33
tsw, ac2, eve, ryzom, istaria ....
  Margrave

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 531

4/24/13 11:22:04 AM#34
The Secret World is build customization crazy.... if that's you thing....
  Yaevindusk

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1276

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

4/24/13 11:22:04 AM#35

 

Best examples that I can think of are either Guild Wars (the first) and probably The Secret World.

Ultima Online had a system whereby all characters could get whatever they wanted, but could only master seven skills.  

Guild Wars has thousands of skills and abilities (a good deal that just repeat the same thing under a different name, but can still be used twice as part of a build).

The Secret world has about 250 attacks and 250 passives to be fitted into 7 active slots and 7 passive slots; the only problem there is the amount of grind it takes to unlock them all, and if you make a mistake you have to work with what you have in lower level areas to grind for more ability points to unlock something.  Though then there is another problem with it perhaps not turning out to be what you envisioned and have to start all over again (since they don't show what the abilities do other than just text as they would in say a fable game and the community has yet to release videos of each skill that I've found).

 

Guild Wars 2 has some decent combinations if you're an elementalist and unlock your second weapon; each weapon has four sets of five abilities in addition to about 35 or so utility skills to pick from to put in five additional slots.  Aside from that gear plays a role in synergy to make certain builds useful, as well as having to spend 70 attribute points amongst five trait lines and figuring out what rune sets (for armor), what sigil sets  (weapons), gem sets (accessories) and what food will compliment your build.  In the context you've described, it has a lot more options than Diablo 3 does at least.

 

 

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

 
OP  4/24/13 11:32:05 AM#36
Originally posted by Margrave
The Secret World is build customization crazy.... if that's you thing....

Yes it is. But the important part is that the customizations and variations are viable. For example, in Diablo 3, i can easily switch between storm armor shocking aspect (high dps), energy armor pinpoint (medium dps, but more protection), and energy armor prismatic (more defense).

All three are viable depending on the situation. I actually will switch around depending on what i do (farming MP8 .. fast run .. i use SA for highest dps, if i do higher MP or boss, it will be energy armor).

Are there similar considerations, and experimentation in TSW?

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2367

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

4/25/13 9:03:31 AM#37
If you don't mind going back a few years, give Titan Quest Immortal Throne a try.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  atticusbc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1075

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

4/25/13 9:13:19 AM#38
Originally posted by Phelcher

Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

 

Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

just your opinion. i, for one, still play gw2. and given that i almost never am alone in any level zone, i'd say a vast number of other people have continued from launch as well.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

 
OP  4/25/13 11:09:41 AM#39
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Phelcher

Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

 

Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

just your opinion. i, for one, still play gw2. and given that i almost never am alone in any level zone, i'd say a vast number of other people have continued from launch as well.

And D3 is still #10 on xfire, after so many month. It is definitely much more relevant than games like PS2, Eve, and even PoE.

GW2 is still #5, right after WOW. So yeah .. those two games are much more relevent than almost all other MMOs, except may be WOW.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/25/13 11:32:33 AM#40
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Phelcher

Q: Is anyone still playing Diablo 3..?

 

Honestly, is D3 even relevent anymore?

Coincidentally, GW2 came about a year ago (I bought 2 CE) & is anybody still playing that game..?  I cannot imagine either of those games enthralling anyone after the first couple of months. Neither have staying power, both are throw away games.

You simply do not see people going threw divorce court over Diablo3, or GuildWars2...  

just your opinion. i, for one, still play gw2. and given that i almost never am alone in any level zone, i'd say a vast number of other people have continued from launch as well.

 

I didn't state an opinion, I stated a fact of observation..

Secondly, You claim to be still playing GW2..   so is there still thousands of people running around.. all over the place.. like in beta and the first few months of release..? Or have you made the logical conclusion that 90% of the players not on... & just occasionally play every now and then..?

Don't lie to yourself...  200 people cramed all in the battlefront means the rest of the server is EMPTY...

 

 

Secondly, are you enthralled played GuildWars2 in April of 2013..  or is it just something you do, because it available and free?

Like I said, I bought two collector's edition boxes... me and friend played heavily. Not one of them plays anymore...     last time a loged on my friends list of over 50 people I was the only one. Game is dead except for a very small area of the game. The same area... ovr & ovr...  

 

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

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