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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Politics and intrigue

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  Arakazi

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/09
Posts: 825

4/23/13 7:44:12 PM#21
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Torik
That's one way to look at it.  However, another view of it is that Goonswarm is not really winning anything meaningful.  They are gettign a lot of publicity but many players simply choose to ignore them in the longrun.  Ultimately most big corps are not brought down by politics or intrigue but boredom.  A few key leaders get bored and either quit the game or start making stupid decisions in order to 'spice things up'. 

I was once a member of a large guild where factions started forming up and disputes started erupting among the leadership.  Just as the politics were heating up, a few of the key member got bored of the guild drama and simply took a break from the game.  Before the 'winning' faction could start celebrating, a new expansion came up and everyone else quickly forgot about the dispute and went back to playing the game. 

Unless you give guilds/corpe/factions real power over the game world, most players will quickly get bored of politics and go back to playing the game.  It is like having a game of Survivor where there is no big prize at the end and people that were elimintated can rejoin at any point they want.   At some point even the most dedicated competitor will get bored and stop playing.

The Goons are winning something meaningful, their alliance allows them to control swathes of 0.0 and the resources they get from that.

What game were you playing when the guild drama happened and what made the politics meaningful, what was there to gain?

 

It's only meaningfull if you care about 0.0.  To the players who do not care about 0.0, the influence of Goonswarm is only tangental.  ie it is only meaningful to the people who think it is meaningful. 

The guild drama happened during the later stages of Vanilla WoW.  The dispute was over changes to our raid DKP policy.  The more dedicated progression raiders wanted implement a new system that rewarded agressive progression raiding.  The more casual raiders prefered the old system which was designed for slower paced raiding.  The progression faction consisted mostly of newer players who joined the guild primarily to raid.  The casual faction consisted of many of the Old Guard, members who have been with the guild for years and joined the guild when it was an Earth & Beyond guild or when it moved to SWG. 

In retrospective it was an extremely silly dispute but we were too obsessed with the raiding system that we built up that we were oblivious to how meaningless it was.  Two months later the expansion hit and the issue became moot forever.  It became clear that we allowed ourself to be trapped in a system created to compensate for the flawed design of vanilla WoW raiding. 

What one group of players will see as meaningful politics and intrigue, another group will see as silly guild drama.  

 

It's only politics if it affects the game world, if not its just guild drama.

re: 0:0 politics, it is meaningful as it affects the supply and demand of the materials that drive the game. In the same way that the average joe pays no attention to politics, he is still affected by it even if he doesn't care what is happening.

Actually, the supply & demand is really controlled by CCP. They control the drop rate of items and therefore control the inflation. There is an argument that minerals and gases can fluctuate wildly, but on the whole the prices are fairly stable (other than Hulkageddon) as is the prices of plex which will eventually be managed by a CCP bank of sorts.  Null sec only matters to those in null sec, in truth the large alliances influence over the wider economy in eve is minimal as most resource gathering and mining is outsourced to smaller corps or is happening in high sec or WH. In fact, I would go as far to say that large alliances such as the goons, power is based more on notoriaty than any real political or financial power. Far from being the alliance that destabilizes the game, they have been actually a stabilizing influence in the game.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/23/13 10:16:20 PM#22
Originally posted by Quirhid

Encouraging player politics is surprisingly easy. Look at World of Tanks: Add a clanwars map and give rewards to those who have managed to claim and hold area. Instant politics. Drama too, sadly.

But the question is .. is it fun?

I have to deal with politics at work ... it is not necessary fun for me in a game, particularly if there is drama.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

4/24/13 1:35:51 AM#23
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Quirhid

Encouraging player politics is surprisingly easy. Look at World of Tanks: Add a clanwars map and give rewards to those who have managed to claim and hold area. Instant politics. Drama too, sadly.

But the question is .. is it fun?

I have to deal with politics at work ... it is not necessary fun for me in a game, particularly if there is drama.

Is that a serious comment?

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

4/24/13 4:49:30 AM#24
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Quirhid

Encouraging player politics is surprisingly easy. Look at World of Tanks: Add a clanwars map and give rewards to those who have managed to claim and hold area. Instant politics. Drama too, sadly.

But the question is .. is it fun?

I have to deal with politics at work ... it is not necessary fun for me in a game, particularly if there is drama.

Well, like any player politics its just childish squabbling. I was only a field commander, I lead the battles, and left the politics to someone else. I guess some people might enjoy it, but I've always thought its nothing more than what I just said.

Luckily most players don't have to worry about such. Only your clan leadership has to deal with it. If you find yourself in a clan that is - it is completely voluntary.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

4/24/13 4:52:05 AM#25
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Quirhid

Encouraging player politics is surprisingly easy. Look at World of Tanks: Add a clanwars map and give rewards to those who have managed to claim and hold area. Instant politics. Drama too, sadly.

But the question is .. is it fun?

I have to deal with politics at work ... it is not necessary fun for me in a game, particularly if there is drama.

Is that a serious comment?

You say its always fun then? Always good? Drama too?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3114

Veni, Vidi, Converti

4/24/13 5:05:57 AM#26
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Quirhid

Encouraging player politics is surprisingly easy. Look at World of Tanks: Add a clanwars map and give rewards to those who have managed to claim and hold area. Instant politics. Drama too, sadly.

But the question is .. is it fun?

I have to deal with politics at work ... it is not necessary fun for me in a game, particularly if there is drama.

Is that a serious comment?

You say its always fun then? Always good? Drama too?

RefMinor's point: People like to get serious about games, as opposed to real world dramas that are ennervating/inefficient (some thrive on it, true). And at the end of the day you flick an off switch on a game as opposed to quiting your job.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11830

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

4/24/13 5:22:49 AM#27
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Quizzical
There are at least two big problems.  First, how do you make a political system in which tens of thousands of people can meaningfully participate.  Second, how do you make the political system have meaningful consequences without ruining the game for a large fraction of your playerbase?

In the sense that when it matters to the game, it matters to the members of a guild, who hold the leadership of the guild responsible for their decisions.

However some people aren't interested in the why, they just shoot the people the leadership tell them to. 

Exactly. You give them the tools to enforce their rules and seize control, and let them decide within their own potlitical and strategic mechanations how they wish to go about that. This allows those that want to take the reigns to do so, those that want to rally behind a flag to do so, and those who want to stay uninvolved to, well, just like real life live under whatever rules are set forth by their local governing body. 

"Encouraging player politics is surprisingly easy. Look at World of Tanks: Add a clanwars map and give rewards to those who have managed to claim and hold area. Instant politics. Drama too, sadly." - Quirhid

I'm not too familair with that system. Can you link to an article or forum thread on the politics behind that. 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11830

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

4/24/13 5:29:39 AM#28
Originally posted by Arakazi
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Torik
That's one way to look at it.  However, another view of it is that Goonswarm is not really winning anything meaningful.  They are gettign a lot of publicity but many players simply choose to ignore them in the longrun.  Ultimately most big corps are not brought down by politics or intrigue but boredom.  A few key leaders get bored and either quit the game or start making stupid decisions in order to 'spice things up'. 

I was once a member of a large guild where factions started forming up and disputes started erupting among the leadership.  Just as the politics were heating up, a few of the key member got bored of the guild drama and simply took a break from the game.  Before the 'winning' faction could start celebrating, a new expansion came up and everyone else quickly forgot about the dispute and went back to playing the game. 

Unless you give guilds/corpe/factions real power over the game world, most players will quickly get bored of politics and go back to playing the game.  It is like having a game of Survivor where there is no big prize at the end and people that were elimintated can rejoin at any point they want.   At some point even the most dedicated competitor will get bored and stop playing.

The Goons are winning something meaningful, their alliance allows them to control swathes of 0.0 and the resources they get from that.

What game were you playing when the guild drama happened and what made the politics meaningful, what was there to gain?

 

It's only meaningfull if you care about 0.0.  To the players who do not care about 0.0, the influence of Goonswarm is only tangental.  ie it is only meaningful to the people who think it is meaningful. 

The guild drama happened during the later stages of Vanilla WoW.  The dispute was over changes to our raid DKP policy.  The more dedicated progression raiders wanted implement a new system that rewarded agressive progression raiding.  The more casual raiders prefered the old system which was designed for slower paced raiding.  The progression faction consisted mostly of newer players who joined the guild primarily to raid.  The casual faction consisted of many of the Old Guard, members who have been with the guild for years and joined the guild when it was an Earth & Beyond guild or when it moved to SWG. 

In retrospective it was an extremely silly dispute but we were too obsessed with the raiding system that we built up that we were oblivious to how meaningless it was.  Two months later the expansion hit and the issue became moot forever.  It became clear that we allowed ourself to be trapped in a system created to compensate for the flawed design of vanilla WoW raiding. 

What one group of players will see as meaningful politics and intrigue, another group will see as silly guild drama.  

 

It's only politics if it affects the game world, if not its just guild drama.

re: 0:0 politics, it is meaningful as it affects the supply and demand of the materials that drive the game. In the same way that the average joe pays no attention to politics, he is still affected by it even if he doesn't care what is happening.

Actually, the supply & demand is really controlled by CCP. They control the drop rate of items and therefore control the inflation. There is an argument that minerals and gases can fluctuate wildly, but on the whole the prices are fairly stable (other than Hulkageddon) as is the prices of plex which will eventually be managed by a CCP bank of sorts.  Null sec only matters to those in null sec, in truth the large alliances influence over the wider economy in eve is minimal as most resource gathering and mining is outsourced to smaller corps or is happening in high sec or WH. In fact, I would go as far to say that large alliances such as the goons, power is based more on notoriaty than any real political or financial power. Far from being the alliance that destabilizes the game, they have been actually a stabilizing influence in the game.

"Actually, the supply & demand is really controlled by CCP. They control the drop rate of items and therefore control the inflation."

You are confusing control with regulation. The distinction lies in that the players control the fluctuation and CCP regulates how far to each end it is allowed to drift. Player control is also far more dynamic and immediately reactionary (at an almost transaction level basis), whereas the regulation is actually few and far between (expansion and patch updates, when and if deemed necessary). To give an example, players control the cost of Tritanium. If something happened that the cost of tritanium started going through the roof, the devs would assess if it is natural market or otherwise. If it is natural free market fluctuation, they would leave it be unless it reached some truly insane proportion.

"In fact, I would go as far to say that large alliances such as the goons, power is based more on notoriaty than any real political or financial power."

It's a safe bet that every miner and industrialist that has either lost assets or made bank as a result of Hulkageddon or Burn Jita would disagree with that statement. I'd venture to say that a lot of pet corps and moon miners would disagree, as well. 

 

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

4/24/13 6:47:11 AM#29
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"Encouraging player politics is surprisingly easy. Look at World of Tanks: Add a clanwars map and give rewards to those who have managed to claim and hold area. Instant politics. Drama too, sadly." - Quirhid

I'm not too familair with that system. Can you link to an article or forum thread on the politics behind that. 

Sadly, no. I only talk from experience since I was somewhat involved. There were powerblocks or alliances, all sorst of deals from non-aggression pacts, mercenaries to defense agreements and how the gold (cash shop currency in WoT) is distributed amongst the clans that worked to gether.

Here's a link to explain the system: http://worldoftanks.eu/en/clanwars_guide/introduction

In a nutshell: Clans battle over the areas in a series of instanced battles. They move around pieces that represent tanks on the browser-based out-of-the-game map board. They capture an area, the clan gets a fixed gold amount every hour. Some areas are more valuable than others. The map is also divided into timezones half hour wide and every night, from right to left, the battles in the map board are resolved. This works sort of like an invitational match ingame. The timezones create this wonky metagame that it is better for the clans to spread east-west direction rather than north-south to avoid battles being overlapped within the same half-hour.

New clans enter the board from special "landing sites" where there's essentially a mini tournament every night with the winner is pitted against the current owner. If they manage to land i.e. capture the landing site, they are recommended to move their pieces on an adjecent area, to attack, in order to not have to defend their area in the tournament finals. Established clans spawn more pieces from headquarters which they can build on an area they choose. It is not recommended to build an HQ on a landing site since it will be under attack every night.

There was some talk about building infrastructure and adding espionage on the map, but I burned out of WoT long before they implemented anything.

TL;DR: Risk type world map where battles are resolved in instanced matches.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  aSynchro

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 146

4/24/13 7:30:24 AM#30
I'm still hoping for World of Darkness Online to do that... hopefully we'll know more about it at the CCP fanfest this friday!
  sanshi44

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1030

4/24/13 7:39:41 AM#31
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by ABRaquel
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

When will an mmorpg succeed to finallygive us an endgame base on politics and intrigue? The more i look at game of thrones, midkemia and other fantasy epos, he more i realise this is what is missing.... A way to infuence the world trough roleplaying..

 

but how to put this intoo a simple mmo?

You mean like EVE? Where Alliances are fickle and trust is a hard sought commodity? 

Yup, for politics and intrigue the gameplay needs to matter to the game world, getting the best stuff in an instance negates all the need for politics. You need open world PvP and resource/territory control along with open faction/guild alliances allowed to change over time

Games like this already exsist where player politic matter, the problem is that most people find that the AAA companies are playing it safe and making the same game reskinned over and over again. I suggest you check out darkfall unholy wars it may not be as polished as games u expect since most people dont play thing other than AAA develeoped game however it offers everything you said above.

  Tyrias

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/12
Posts: 11

4/24/13 10:17:18 AM#32

I always expected to see this in MMORPG's when I first started playing them many years ago, but instead I got dissapointed by instances, raids and battlegrounds.  It seems now though that MMORPG's are shifting to this, would be awesome if we could see the stuff that Shadowbane had again. 

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/24/13 11:12:57 AM#33

As others have mentioned, unformalized politics and drama is surprisingly easy to implement.

But I wouldn't mind seeing a formalized system of politics created in a game, where you interact with NPCs who have agendas that can be spied or implied, and favor to be curried.  You could make a real game of it.

Game of Thrones is entertaining because it hops to all the interesting political events and skips the trivial ones.  So unlike "real" videogame politics where I'm sure you could spend thousands (if not tens of thousands) of hours in EVE between major political events, Game of Thrones is all of the major events stacked end-to-end.  That's what makes it good entertainment.

A politics videogame which formalizes politics via game systems would be similar.  Every session you'd have a major political event(s).  It would be rich, dense politics, and make for good entertainment.

There are a good number of political simulators out there, but one that sticks out in my mind as a good system was from Europa 1400 The Guild where most of the game is about running a business (carpentry, blacksmithing, etc) in the year 1400, but there's also a significant political system.  You compete against other businessmen to be favored with the guild, and if your perfume manufacturer opponent is pulling ahead you can do things like make perfume illegal to trip them up.  It just requires earning enough political clout to be able to even propose the measure in the first place, and then having enough government members fond of you to see it pass.

Then again, you might forgo the favor-currying and just hire an assassination on the guy (but there's a certain amount of risk associated with that.)  The economy simulation isn't the funnest I've ever played but the overall game was quite a unique experience that I recommend if all of that sounds interesting to you.  The most frustrating part was sometimes the game was inexplicably obtuse, so you'd have some simple goal in mind (improve favor with Joe Butcher) but no clear paths to achieve that goal, even though in real life it's something you could just walk up and do.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/24/13 11:16:48 AM#34
Originally posted by Tyrias

I always expected to see this in MMORPG's when I first started playing them many years ago, but instead I got dissapointed by instances, raids and battlegrounds.  It seems now though that MMORPG's are shifting to this, would be awesome if we could see the stuff that Shadowbane had again. 

 

You want to see stuff from a failed game?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/24/13 11:18:03 AM#35
Originally posted by Axehilt

Game of Thrones is entertaining because it hops to all the interesting political events and skips the trivial ones. 

I don't think it is just the political events. GoT is good because of the characters and writing. You can create that kind of story lines and events without the best professional writers money can buy.

 

  Leiloni

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 336

4/24/13 11:47:08 AM#36
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

When will an mmorpg succeed to finallygive us an endgame base on politics and intrigue? The more i look at game of thrones, midkemia and other fantasy epos, he more i realise this is what is missing.... A way to infuence the world trough roleplaying..

 

but how to put this intoo a simple mmo?

If you want to truly influence the game world and be involved in politics that actually matter, than check out Origins of Malu. Factions are entirely player created and controlled, cities and towns are player created and controlled (also good for the crafters!), faction territories are player created and controlled. This game has so much promise right now, I just hope it all turns out well!

http://originsmmo.com/?q=factions

http://originsmmo.com/?q=crafting

http://originsmmo.com/?q=features

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

4/24/13 11:54:07 AM#37
I think adding political systems into a game would make it really fun, add another aspect to the entire experience. MMOs are the perfect medium for political systems since your playing with x amount of other people that have the same rights and privileges. It's not about one single player, at least not where reason is concerned.

As far as how to implement? Tera had an addon essentially for politics that didn't really effect those uninterested but I don't think it was that robust. You could intertwine politics into a game that had seperate "kingdoms" that allowed a dev to moderate the framework. This would be the most likely result in a non open PvP game.

Another is to provide a medium like EvE does where the politics just happen. This IMO is the easiest way to provide politics but I wouldn't prefer it.
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/24/13 12:29:59 PM#38
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't think it is just the political events. GoT is good because of the characters and writing. You can create that kind of story lines and events without the best professional writers money can buy. 

Well it tends to be mostly political events, but whether they're political or not isn't actually important.

What's important is they skip hundreds of hours of people uneventfully walking across a desert.  That's not included in the book nor the series, nor should it be included in a MMORPG game trying to mimick the IP's success.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/24/13 12:51:45 PM#39
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't think it is just the political events. GoT is good because of the characters and writing. You can create that kind of story lines and events without the best professional writers money can buy. 

Well it tends to be mostly political events, but whether they're political or not isn't actually important.

What's important is they skip hundreds of hours of people uneventfully walking across a desert.  That's not included in the book nor the series, nor should it be included in a MMORPG game trying to mimick the IP's success.

Not only that .. the other important point is that good professional writers are creating those events that are interesting, and fit to the characters. I care very little about some guy got his head chopped off, but i care a great deal about Ned Stark's head got chopped off, particulary because how he was betrayed.

This kind of interesting stuff will never happen in a million years in a MMO if you let players do whatever.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/24/13 6:36:19 PM#40
Originally posted by nariusseldon

This kind of interesting stuff will never happen in a million years in a MMO if you let players do whatever.

Er, no, it definitely does happen.

There are a few very major EVE political/economic plots that have happened over the years.  And they do make great stories.  But they make great stories when condensed down to the eventful moments, just like Game of Thrones is written.

They don't make great stories when experienced first-hand as a game.  Behind every fantastic EVE story is literally hundreds of thousands of gameplay hours of mind-numbing boredom.

So don't pretend these types of events never happen.  They do happen, they just happen so rarely that the overall game is mind-numbingly boring.

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