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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » CU: The Niche MMO that is trying to kickstart on a Triple-A budget

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84 posts found
  nbtscan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 507

4/23/13 4:50:12 PM#41
Originally posted by ZedTheRock

To which It finally dawned on me the other day, if this is a niche game, why did they try to fund at such a high level.

This is nowhere near a AAA budget.  Square Enix spent more on a 7 minute CGI trailer than CSE is trying to Kickstart their game for.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7531

4/23/13 4:53:38 PM#42
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Hjamnr
Originally posted by Teala

The problem with CU is, and it really is simple, is that it brings nothing new to the table.   It is regurgitating what has all ready been chewed up and eaten a half a dozen times.    Go back and look at the games that have come before recently - in fact lets go back to DAoC.  Now move forward.   MMO's that have released that are like CU.    We have WoW.  We have Warhammer.  We have Aion.  We have GW2.   We have Rift.   We have SWTOR.  We have PS2.    Soon we'll have TES Online.   Most of these games revolve around PvP/faction vs faction, some are 2 faction based games(Aion - WoW) and others are three factions fighting it out for control.   Do we really need another game dedicated to this?  Especially one that has little PvE and is all about faction warfare and territorial control?(Just play PS2 if that is what you are looking for).

Look I love new games being made...what I dislike is that this genre has been driven into the ground by lackluster games and especially games that do nothing new.   CU is just a lesser version of DAoC.   Why do we need that?

 

 

So much fail, in this post.

WoW - no

WHY NOT? - just saying no says nothing about what you like or dislike

Warhammer - Some similarities but not really that close, and poorly executed by EA/GW

Rift -  You're kidding, right?

Rift is a decent game. I did get bored with it but I played it quite a bit - so call it burn out.

GW2 - All instanced, queues, combat area resets and your opponents change every 2 weeks.  Bleah

As far as GW2 - the dungeons are instance and the PvP area is in the Mists (it is part of the map BTW, not really instanced) - So you do not know what you are talking about

Aion - Again... are you kidding?

PS2 - Can't believe you even included this online FPS

TES - Again, all instanced crap. 

You obviously don't comprehend what "RvR" actually is, and think it compares, in any way, to the FFA or arena BS the games you mentioned contain.

You know, we get you  are a CU junkie, but the game isn't even out or coded yet. All they have given is platitudes, like the GW2 philosophy page and they got nuked for it. Since nothing of the game is developed yet, that is all MJ has given and it can change.  

 

You could say the same to the poster above the one you responded to.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 4:54:06 PM#43
There's only really been 2 rvr games
Daoc and planetside
Planetside 2 lacks the meta game, but its getting there
Gw2 isn't properly persistent , and there's no long term grab as there is no rivalry due to the no names policy and server shuffling
War only had 2 sides, it had a campaign that had to reset and it wasn't in a single big rvr area, just a load of little lakes
Wow doesn't have anything remotely like rvr, none of its pvp is persistent, everythings on a bloody timer.
Aion had 2 sides and was far too gear dependent for a rvr mmo.
Rift let's you be chums in pve then pick a side in pvp, plus its timed like wow.

So basicly daoc and planetside are rvr
Ps2 and war are almost rvr
Gw2 and aion have some rvr features
Wow and rift have nothing like rvr in them at all.
  Pivotelite

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 2195

4/23/13 4:55:27 PM#44

SWTOR, GW2, TERA budgets were all 50m+ each for development, that's a AAA budget, not 2m. 

 

Lol..

  Zinzan

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1368

4/23/13 5:22:30 PM#45
Originally posted by ShakyMo
There's only really been 2 rvr games
Daoc and planetside
Planetside 2 lacks the meta game, but its getting there
Gw2 isn't properly persistent , and there's no long term grab as there is no rivalry due to the no names policy and server shuffling
War only had 2 sides, it had a campaign that had to reset and it wasn't in a single big rvr area, just a load of little lakes
Wow doesn't have anything remotely like rvr, none of its pvp is persistent, everythings on a bloody timer.
Aion had 2 sides and was far too gear dependent for a rvr mmo.
Rift let's you be chums in pve then pick a side in pvp, plus its timed like wow.

So basicly daoc and planetside are rvr
Ps2 and war are almost rvr
Gw2 and aion have some rvr features
Wow and rift have nothing like rvr in them at all.

I'm not seeing the difference between Planetside and Planetside 2.

What meta game did PS have and how does that make PS2 any less "rvr" .

GW2 is no different to DAOC really, just because its not persistent doesn't make it any less " rvr" (wvwvw).

So, Aion is gear dependant and that means its not "rvr" when DAoC was completely gear dependant to the point of gear>skill?

 

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7436

"Really officer, they're herbs."

4/23/13 5:24:51 PM#46
Originally posted by Hjamnr
Originally posted by Teala

The problem with CU is, and it really is simple, is that it brings nothing new to the table.   It is regurgitating what has all ready been chewed up and eaten a half a dozen times.    Go back and look at the games that have come before recently - in fact lets go back to DAoC.  Now move forward.   MMO's that have released that are like CU.    We have WoW.  We have Warhammer.  We have Aion.  We have GW2.   We have Rift.   We have SWTOR.  We have PS2.    Soon we'll have TES Online.   Most of these games revolve around PvP/faction vs faction, some are 2 faction based games(Aion - WoW) and others are three factions fighting it out for control.   Do we really need another game dedicated to this?  Especially one that has little PvE and is all about faction warfare and territorial control?(Just play PS2 if that is what you are looking for).

Look I love new games being made...what I dislike is that this genre has been driven into the ground by lackluster games and especially games that do nothing new.   CU is just a lesser version of DAoC.   Why do we need that?

 

 

So much fail, in this post.

WoW - no

Warhammer - Some similarities but not really that close, and poorly executed by EA/GW

Rift -  You're kidding, right?

GW2 - All instanced, queues, combat area resets and your opponents change every 2 weeks.  Bleah

Aion - Again... are you kidding?

PS2 - Can't believe you even included this online FPS

TES - Again, all instanced crap. 

You obviously don't comprehend what "RvR" actually is, and think it compares, in any way, to the FFA or arena BS the games you mentioned contain.

I understand RvR.   I understand somewhat, about CU, but the game designers haven't explained much at all about how their RvR will work...they don't even have a world map.    I mention those games because they are "faction vs faction"(pre-created and pre-determined - set in stone games of race vs race or kingdom vs kingdom based games).    The basic game play.  Sounds like an advanced version of DAoC but with the ability to take and control land and build on it, gather resources and what not.   But make no mistake, they will have safe areas(says so in their game documents) where people will be able to build and own shops - that makes it more like DAoC - it isn't open, it is "you can be this race" - and you "must fight for this faction" - and you can go here - but you cannot go here - type of game.   Same as all the ones I listed above.  The only difference is in CU it seems you can build things in contested areas for people to defend and attack.


 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 5:53:41 PM#47
Ps1 had continent locking and bridge battles

Although continent locking is coming to ps2
Ps2 is almost there, its the best attempt at rvr since "the wow era"
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 5:55:03 PM#48
Teala
Some of those games you mention have rvr

But no one in their right mind could describe wow and rift as rvr games.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 5:56:05 PM#49
Sorry mean hjammr
  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7436

"Really officer, they're herbs."

4/23/13 6:23:45 PM#50
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Teala
Some of those games you mention have rvr

But no one in their right mind could describe wow and rift as rvr games.

Why not?   Horde vs Alliance - those are factions/realms and the players do fight for control of places like Wintergrasp and Tol Barad.  They fight for them to control them to receive benefits in areas or in game in general.   Sounds no different than what we see in DAoC - which is an RvR game.  Tell me how they do not relate.

  Karahandras

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/08
Posts: 1669

All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing

4/23/13 6:26:40 PM#51
Originally posted by meddyck

This takes the prize for weirdest complaint I've seen. Since when is $2 million a AAA budget? AAA MMOs such as SWTOR and GW 2 were developed for 10s of millions of dollars perhaps even 100s of millions depending on who you believe. CSE is taking all sorts of short cuts due to the small funding level they will have. You can see this in the number of classes and races, lack of pet classes, lack of PvE, and many other aspects of the design.

Could the Kickstarter have been done differently, focused more tightly on its core niche, and gone for a smaller initial goal of $1 - 1.5 million with some aspects of the current basic design becoming stretch goals? Yes I strongly think so. Still it's not remotely a AAA MMO even at its current $2 million goal.

fyi it's 5mil, 2mil is just extra they want from kickstarter.  But agree it's no longer a AAA budget.

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/23/13 6:41:53 PM#52
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Teala
Some of those games you mention have rvr

But no one in their right mind could describe wow and rift as rvr games.

Why not?   Horde vs Alliance - those are factions/realms and the players do fight for control of places like Wintergrasp and Tol Barad.  They fight for them to control them to receive benefits in areas or in game in general.   Sounds no different than what we see in DAoC - which is an RvR game.  Tell me how they do not relate.

RvR means Realm vs Realm. In other words, it's not only the players that are important but the realm as well. What is the realm? it is the part of the world for which you fight. It's no use to fight for  something if 1 week later it reset and doesn't belong to you anymore, regardless of the skills of the enemy. The goal is to expand the realm.

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2441

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

4/23/13 6:55:05 PM#53
Why do others care what people do with their money? I guess haters just gonna hate.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

4/23/13 6:59:24 PM#54
Originally posted by Teala

I understand RvR.   I understand somewhat, about CU, but the game designers haven't explained much at all about how their RvR will work...they don't even have a world map.    I mention those games because they are "faction vs faction"(pre-created and pre-determined - set in stone games of race vs race or kingdom vs kingdom based games).    The basic game play.  Sounds like an advanced version of DAoC but with the ability to take and control land and build on it, gather resources and what not.   But make no mistake, they will have safe areas(says so in their game documents) where people will be able to build and own shops - that makes it more like DAoC - it isn't open, it is "you can be this race" - and you "must fight for this faction" - and you can go here - but you cannot go here - type of game.   Same as all the ones I listed above.  The only difference is in CU it seems you can build things in contested areas for people to defend and attack.


 

Why is it important to have a game world without restrictions? I don't want to be put on a empty plane and get said that I have to find the fun on myself. I want to have some decisions to make. For example, what realm I want to play. And the decision has some consequences, I cannot play the races and classes of the other realms. Btw, having distinct races is a perfect way to recognize friend and foe. You don't have to mark them red or blue or green. Ok, the naming tag helps ;)

While I love to play new games, no matter if they combine things which where already in other games or have some innovations in it, the thing that really hooks me with CU is

#1 that the development process is so visible for the community. It feels like we have influence on that game, being part of it even before we can activly playing it.

And #2 The realm pride thing. I don't know, maybe I wish the old days back, but I think this game can bring real socialization back into an mmo.

While the attempt of GW2, bringing people together with open quests was surely a kind thought, it didn't evolved as expected. People crowd together to hit a boss, but there  is no interaction between them. I hope that this will be different in CU.

And I like to be a crafter to support the fray, this is also something which sounds exciting. And I honestly don't know where this has been happen similar to the concept in CU. I never played minecraft, but as far as I know, there is no other goal than digging holes and build something just for the fun of building.

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

4/23/13 7:28:51 PM#55
Originally posted by ZedTheRock

SO been thinking of this for a while now.  MJ has consistently said Camelot Unchained is a niche MMO being developed for a niche crowd.  Now this is all fine and all but as we approach the end of the Kickstarter campaign we are seeing more complaining amongst its very vocal fanbase, bordering on obsessive fanboi'ism even.  Time and time again any dectractor to the game is disparraged for questioning the authority of MJ or any design decision with "this is a Niche game with a niche playerbase".  To which It finally dawned on me the other day, if this is a niche game, why did they try to fund at such a high level.

 

AAA MMOs are about 300 million. This is 2 million. Bit of a difference.

And most of the detractors are completely ignorant of the actual game. They've made a base assumption (which is fine, and makes sense, if you don't get hooked by the base idea why would you dig into the details?) so most of the fans spend their time informing the people who make these sweeping conclusions.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

4/23/13 7:36:55 PM#56
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

The amount of trolling traffic far out weighs that of the vocal fanbase.  The CU community was very active on these forums until moderation became questionable and the trolls consistently roamed freely.  Granted, some of the "fanbois" were equally as aggressive back to the attention whoring posters that visited.  Most of us got tired of the crap that went on here and relocated.

Nonetheless, $5 million to develop a game that will would have 30k-70k+ subscribers is not a higher request margin.  It's extremely low for the overhead during development.

The point the OP was making is that this game doesn't have 30-70K followers, *currently*, who are willing to fund it, so having such a high goal right away is silly.  Crowdfunding isn't the same as getting real investors, and it should be treated as a way to get partial funding...and by partial I mean having realistic expectations about how big their initiail following will be.

 

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

4/23/13 7:39:32 PM#57
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by ZedTheRock

SO been thinking of this for a while now.  MJ has consistently said Camelot Unchained is a niche MMO being developed for a niche crowd.  Now this is all fine and all but as we approach the end of the Kickstarter campaign we are seeing more complaining amongst its very vocal fanbase, bordering on obsessive fanboi'ism even.  Time and time again any dectractor to the game is disparraged for questioning the authority of MJ or any design decision with "this is a Niche game with a niche playerbase".  To which It finally dawned on me the other day, if this is a niche game, why did they try to fund at such a high level.

 

AAA MMOs are about 300 million. This is 2 million. Bit of a difference.

And most of the detractors are completely ignorant of the actual game. They've made a base assumption (which is fine, and makes sense, if you don't get hooked by the base idea why would you dig into the details?) so most of the fans spend their time informing the people who make these sweeping conclusions.

First of all, there is no "actual game" yet.  There's a current design map of some kind (I would hope) and a tiny bit of development with probably somewhere north of two full years of dev to come before release.  You would be wise to understand that everything and anything can change between now and then, including the entire project failing outright.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 8:07:52 PM#58
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Teala
Some of those games you mention have rvr

But no one in their right mind could describe wow and rift as rvr games.

Why not?   Horde vs Alliance - those are factions/realms and the players do fight for control of places like Wintergrasp and Tol Barad.  They fight for them to control them to receive benefits in areas or in game in general.   Sounds no different than what we see in DAoC - which is an RvR game.  Tell me how they do not relate.

RVR is- clue here - ENTIRE REALM vs the other realms, 24/7 non stop allways available forever

WOW is 10 vs 10 for 20 minutes followed by 30 mins of sat in a city queueing

 

Wintergrasp and Tol Barad are battlegrounds in disguise, they're on bloody timers and have entry restrictions.  Again you have to sit on your arse waiting for them to be up.

this is beacuse wow is a raiding game ran by former EQ raiders.  Thats where the priority lies, PVP is meant to be something you play for a little while for fun while youre waiting for your raid to form.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

4/23/13 8:50:01 PM#59
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by ZedTheRock

SO been thinking of this for a while now.  MJ has consistently said Camelot Unchained is a niche MMO being developed for a niche crowd.  Now this is all fine and all but as we approach the end of the Kickstarter campaign we are seeing more complaining amongst its very vocal fanbase, bordering on obsessive fanboi'ism even.  Time and time again any dectractor to the game is disparraged for questioning the authority of MJ or any design decision with "this is a Niche game with a niche playerbase".  To which It finally dawned on me the other day, if this is a niche game, why did they try to fund at such a high level.

 

AAA MMOs are about 300 million. This is 2 million. Bit of a difference.

And most of the detractors are completely ignorant of the actual game. They've made a base assumption (which is fine, and makes sense, if you don't get hooked by the base idea why would you dig into the details?) so most of the fans spend their time informing the people who make these sweeping conclusions.

First of all, there is no "actual game" yet.  There's a current design map of some kind (I would hope) and a tiny bit of development with probably somewhere north of two full years of dev to come before release.  You would be wise to understand that everything and anything can change between now and then, including the entire project failing outright.

You totally ignored what I said and dropped in something entirely irrelavent. Of course the game may change from now until release.

The point I was making is, I've seen so many threads of "No PvE? Not backing." or "All RvR all the time? That's boring."

They make huge assumptions based on snippets of information and lose interest, when in reality, if they read about how the game is actually designed to be, it's nothing like their assumptions claim it is. The problem is, once these folks are turned off by snippets of misinformation, they will not dig for more information and realize their assumptions are inaccurate, and why would they? Can't blame them all that much. What we CAN blame them for (and what has been REALLY annoying) is when people make ignorant posts and tons of threads spouting their misinformation and generally complaining/publically announcing that they don't like the game, and calling other people fools for liking it.

 

It's fine to remain ignorant of a game that doesn't interest you, but don't stink up the forums announcing your ignorance to the world, and then don't complain about "fabois" when they try to correct you.

  sanitysend

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/08
Posts: 124

4/23/13 8:53:38 PM#60
The Old Republic was around 300mil. Triple-A games constantly hit the 100mil mark nowadays. This is an extremely small budget for an MMO, or any game that is worked on by more than a few people for that matter. 

Wildstar:
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