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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Explain this idea of "Immersion" to me.

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209 posts found
  socalsk8tr

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/10
Posts: 65

4/21/13 3:01:53 AM#141
I think everyones gonna have somewhat of a different view of what immersion means for them for me its what makes me zone out on the game for hours on end without realizing 5-6 hours have passed. Its good gameplay things that keep your attention from one minute to the next. I can't really recall too many mmo's that sucked me in and kept me zoned out like when I would play Orcarina of Time or One of the old Castlevania games. Theres numerous things that can draw your attention in a game but its what keeps your attention that makes its a great game and keeps you playing it.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19759

4/21/13 7:34:33 PM#142
Originally posted by Bossalinie

Dungeon findering is totally an immersion breaker.

/1 to ask for a dungeon across the whole server is where immersion is at.

 

- Yours Truly,

Old Schooler

LOL .. right on.

Plus, if one cares so much about how LFD is immersion breaking, don't use it. It is not like the dungeon cannot be walked to. It is not like you cannot try to get a group by talking to people in a city.

The fact that most people use it shows that they don't care about this "immersion breaking" thing much.

 

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/21/13 7:37:05 PM#143
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Phelcher

It great to have such young minds around...

I'm far older than you, I'm sure.

 

A community of players is what roleplaying is. If there is no community, then there is no point in playing within those games. Oddly, people who play MMORPG's games for entertainment are funny...   they could be jogging, or watching TV...

As someone who started playing roleplaying games in 1974 with Chainmail, the predecessor to original D&D, I'd say you're wrong.  Compare what goes on in a good PnP RPG around a table and compare it to what happens in an MMO.  There simply is no comparison.

And  yes, those people could be doing just about anything, it's a good thing that they picked playing MMOs because they represent the majority of the MMO market.  If they all decided to go do something else, the entire MMO marketplace would implode and you'd be left with nothing to play.

Why play a video game, unless You are going to chellenge yourself... (IE like a puzzle..?)  Or, if you are 100% into entertainment, then why play a MMORPG, and just not an arcade game..? People whom play roleplaying games all day long, like an arcade game are odd.

 

Because they choose to play an MMO?  What business is it of yours how people choose to spend their time and money?  In case you haven't noticed, there are tons of games out there that are totally non-competitive that attract millions of players.  These are ENTERTAINMENT products!  They are not places to wave your e-peen around.

 

FIrst off, I don't speak about MMOs...     I am here @ MMORPG... to talk about MMORPGs. The fact you cannot sperate them means you lost sight of the difference. (MMO's are arcade MMORPG are not.) That said... I don't care how people choose to spend their money...  I just don't care if it on MMO's...   only if they spend their money on MMORPG's and are enthusiast of mmorpgs & we discuss those.

Nobody here cares wether-or-not someone plays MMO arcade games...    why, or what..   do those games have to do with MMORPG.com..?  Most don't play to be entertained, they play for the adventure, comraderie & challenge.

 

 

 

BTW..  I've been doing roleplaying since the 70's too, dude.  I was a kid, running around Ann Arbor's campus as a Hobbit with older uncle. Not to mention when D&D (And AD&D) came to fruition. We still once a year get together and play D&D...

 

 

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/21/13 7:41:46 PM#144
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Bossalinie

Dungeon findering is totally an immersion breaker.

/1 to ask for a dungeon across the whole server is where immersion is at.

 

- Yours Truly,

Old Schooler

LOL .. right on.

Plus, if one cares so much about how LFD is immersion breaking, don't use it. It is not like the dungeon cannot be walked to. It is not like you cannot try to get a group by talking to people in a city.

The fact that most people use it shows that they don't care about this "immersion breaking" thing much.

 

 

 

Exactly^^ (lol)

 

Never read a book, never enjoy a book...   just get the cliff notes, right?   

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5244

4/23/13 2:07:01 AM#145

To get immersion you have to start with an open world, these new MMO ribbon worlds feel artificial from the start of your game journey. Everything else that goes with an open world makes for an immesive MMO, not a MMO that feels like you are in toyland.

I think players are asking too much though if they think their immersion should never be disturbed. The needs of gameplay do not always synch with immersion.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

4/23/13 4:10:51 AM#146
I my most MEMORABLE moment of IMMERSION in game for first time was when in 2002 when Elder Scroll III: Morrowind was released and i stepped into world for first time man this game gave me real feel of immersion such a huge open world to roam freely and explore that was just AWESOME.
  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 731

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

4/23/13 4:25:02 AM#147

Immersion is what happens to me when I watch "Game of Thrones".  It's what made me come back for a second season, and what happened to me the moment that first episode of the second season began. 

I know that the world in which that tv show takes place is not real, but the people in charge of bringing it to me on a weekly basis work really hard to make that not matter.  In fact, as brutal as it can sometimes be, they actually make it comperable or even preferable to the world in which I really live.

That is immersion (without reading anything from the rest of the string yet).

Everquest can be immersive if you catch it right.  The depth of some of those questlines can really pull you in.  The moment you run into someone else though, shortcutting things and running cookie cutter patterns through the game, the feeling goes away.

To put it bluntly, immersion is like that elusive feeling you get when you meet a new love interest.  For a while there no one knows about each other and so every single thing that happens or anything either of you do is special and new.  At that time, you can't think of anything better.  4 years later though you're like "How in the world did we get from there to here?" and you are wondering why you keep coming home after work.

In other words immersion is something that I think all games are capable of having in the beginning but that few are capable of sustaining over any period of time.

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 731

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

4/23/13 4:47:25 AM#148

Ok, after reading the OP's post and understanding exactly what the question is I can only say that people play these games for different reasons.

For me (an old timer) I never thought, as a kid, that there would ever actually be a game in which I would be able to play out certain fantasies that, right up until the first MMO game out, I only pictured in my head as a result of reading books.

For this kind of player it is easy to get involved in the life of a character.  And yes, we do exactly that thing that you explain as though it is something completely foreign to your way of thinking and pretend that the character on the screen is actually our representation of ourselves in the world in which we are playing.

If it helps, to think about just sitting down in front of such a time consuming piece of software with no reason for doing so, no option to make money from it, no payback on my investment, and to play it only for the sake of "winning" is just as foreign to me as my way of playing the game is to you.

See, after you play a couple of these things you realize that there really is no such thing as "winning" one.  Actually, you really only have to play and walk away from one of them to figure it out.  You play and play and play, and put all of this time into working through what the developers put out there for you......"and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you.  No one told you when to run, you've missed the starting gun." (Pink Floyd) and all of a sudden you're like "what in the world did I just do?

There's no trade in.

If you manage to sell that character you will not get enough to last you a month more or less the time that you put into building it.

You realize that the only thing that you really have to show for it are your memories of building it.  And if those memories are only of grind, grind, grind, in silence, no friends, no good times, no enjoyment, just a big old competition that you were only winning while you kept playing and that you began to fall behind in the moment that you stopped playing.

Well....it can get a little disheartening.  You might not even want to ever play a game like that again.

But if you enjoyed yourself, well that's something completely different!

A couple of years ago my wife and I decided that our MMO memories were just as valid as any other memories we'd  ever have.   We went places, we did things, we met people, and we had fun.  Not much different than any vacation we'd ever took, or any job we'd ever had.  Sure, we wasted a hell of a lot of time, but at the time, we had it to waste.  And while a lot of our other friends were just going through the daily grind we were getting to enjoy each others time in ways that we had never imagined we could growing up.

That's immersion.  When you can remember taking your wife on a date out in Lake Talos in the COH game and swimming under a waterfall with her and a couple of your closest superhero friends, and she remembers it too.

That's winning to some of us old timers.  That stuff that you youngins do, that's what I do during my day job in order to pay for being able to do this stuff at night or on the weekends.

 

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

4/23/13 5:56:06 AM#149
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by NaughtyP
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by ignore_me

To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.

 

I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time.  Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life.  People who do that have something wrong with them.

You are completely missing the point on immersion. Immersion isn't meant to replace real life activities or experiences, it's meant to make the game more enjoyable by not breaking certain "personal rules".

For example, if your character had the ability to do the worm dance animation while floating above ground and fighting all at the same time, you might think "Well, that's stupid. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't make sense to me?".

All of us have a point where a broken "personal rule" will ruin a game for us. Some are more forgiving. Others are more strict. But it has absolutely nothing to do with replacing real life.

For some people, it *IS* the point of immersion, they want to escape from reality and live in a virtual world.  Those people are pathetic losers.

Games, like any other entertainment product, have their own rules.  The designers decide what rules apply to their game and so long as they are consistent, I'd argue that the game is fundamentally sound.  You might not like the rules they come up with, and of course, you're welcome not to play the game, that's what personal preference is for.

Personally, I hate all of those stupid animations, it makes no sense whatsoever for a medieval character to be disco dancing.  I make it easy and just never use any of them.  It has nothing to do with immersion, it has to do with the fact that it's stupid.

Always amazes me how you and certain others on these forums never get warned or band for ignorant blanket statements such as this downing people. Yet...I get them for pointing it out.

 

Anyways, you, and several others either completely don't understand, or are just selfish and don't care what others like or want. But LOVE to cloak it under the guise "It's what the people want", etc.  I imagine it is the latter. Must be young and never came up with MMORPG's like UO, EQ, DOAC....or are older and just want a style you have the time to play so campaign for what we have now and is why you like them. Still want to hold onto them, but can't make the time to play them as they were initially intended?

 

I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3563

4/23/13 7:19:29 AM#150
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
 

 /snip

I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.

I find it highly ironic that the 'convenience' MMOs have a longer history (7+ years) than any of those 'old-school' MMOs.

Who's the 'old man get off my lawn' now? :P

 

Pretty sure MMOs with 'never ending adventures' are still out there; EVE, AoW.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7735

Logic be damned!

4/23/13 7:34:58 AM#151
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

 /snip

I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.

I find it highly ironic that the 'convenience' MMOs have a longer history (7+ years) than any of those 'old-school' MMOs.

Who's the 'old man get off my lawn' now? :P

Pretty sure MMOs with 'never ending adventures' are still out there; EVE, AoW.

UO had some of the greatest convenience features as well as that old school "never ending adventure" vibe.

UO circa 2000-2002 or so really, really was the absolute perfection of the MMO genre.

At least in terms of system design... graphics and combat mechanics were a bit behind the times.

It's both sad and funny that when people try to revive that style of gameplay, they always seem to miss the biggest and most significant change that catapulted the game's popularity and critical appeal - choice.

Trammel / Felucca split was the best thing to ever happen to UO.

Adding races/classes completely ruined it. Thanks EA!

Now Playing: Destiny

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19759

4/23/13 11:22:51 AM#152
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

 

Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.

This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

4/23/13 3:57:13 PM#153
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

 

Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.

This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?

But that's what you don't seem to get. MMORPG's don't have to compete with those types of games...as they are geared toward a different market and playerbase. Unless like Blizzard....the greed factor has taken complete control rather than modest profits.

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

4/23/13 3:58:49 PM#154
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
 

 /snip

I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.

MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.

I find it highly ironic that the 'convenience' MMOs have a longer history (7+ years) than any of those 'old-school' MMOs.

Who's the 'old man get off my lawn' now? :P

 

Pretty sure MMOs with 'never ending adventures' are still out there; EVE, AoW.

/shakes head

EQ is STILL putting out expansions and still has a moderate playerbase. It started in 1999. Do the math.

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

4/23/13 4:03:47 PM#155

I guess I'm one of these "old timers."

It's really a matter of perspective and preference. People who want to be immersed in a MMORPG are looking for a virtual world to live a second life in for a part of their free time each day/week. They are that character that they're playing, and everything from scenery, artestry, fauna, critters, sounds, and weather effects matter a great deal to these people. They probably even RP or used to RP in MMORPG's. 

It's honestly a great way to play and approach a game. It adds longevity to the game and allows you to notice the fine details of a game, instead of racing to endgame. The people who make up this community of immersive people will also be the ones who create awesome RP events. I was apart of a few in DAoC, SWG, and WoW. Good times, too bad I feel those days are mostly gone.

  Torik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2325

4/23/13 4:25:02 PM#156
Originally posted by nate1980

I guess I'm one of these "old timers."

It's really a matter of perspective and preference. People who want to be immersed in a MMORPG are looking for a virtual world to live a second life in for a part of their free time each day/week. They are that character that they're playing, and everything from scenery, artestry, fauna, critters, sounds, and weather effects matter a great deal to these people. They probably even RP or used to RP in MMORPG's. 

It's honestly a great way to play and approach a game. It adds longevity to the game and allows you to notice the fine details of a game, instead of racing to endgame. The people who make up this community of immersive people will also be the ones who create awesome RP events. I was apart of a few in DAoC, SWG, and WoW. Good times, too bad I feel those days are mostly gone.

I see this as siminar to tabletop P&P RPG and LARPing.  Some people need to dress up as their characters to be really immersed but to me sittign at a kitchen table and talking about it was all I needed to get immmersed.  It probably helped that I was used to playing with minimalistic toys and thus easily filled in things through imagination alone.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

4/23/13 6:46:03 PM#157
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by ignore_me

To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.

 

I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time.  Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life.  People who do that have something wrong with them.

Are you referring to delusions or psychosis?

If not, then what do you mean? What is the norm you are basing that statement upon? Keep in mind that you are posting on a website devoted to games where you manipulate fantasy stat puppets on a screen, and encounter dragons and shit.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

4/23/13 6:57:04 PM#158

It comes down to "suspension of disbelief".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

Part of the issue with today's games is that they don't really offer enough to sustain any immersion of suspension of disbelief.  I first experienced true immersion in Star Wars Galaxies, and that in large part was due to the fact that it felt much more like a virtual world, than it did a game. When I put my head phones on, logged in, and started playing and getting into things with my friends, the "real world" fell away and I was completely and totally living moment to moment in Star Wars Galaxies.  People could walk into my home-office and I wouldn't even know they were there.

in SWG, I had a home (well multupiple properties), I had a shop, combat, exploration social events, competitive events, all kinds of goals, trade, business relationships, etc.  There are many, many layers with games like Star Wars Galaxies, and once you get rolling in a gaming session, they can take over a lot of brain cycles.

The best way I can describe this and keep it short is to say that pretty much all of my brain was occupied with the game.  This was possible for me because the entire experience of the game was very rich and didn't leave much room for thoughts of real world stuff to creep in.  I had so many goals to reach in the game, so many things to consider and do, that I was immersed. in the total experience of it.

In today's shallow games, there are moments when my attention is siezed brifely, say in a challenging fight, which is rare, but most of the time I can play the game, watch TV, think about family, work and hobbies, etc and I never ever get that feeling of being immersed totally in the game world.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

4/23/13 6:57:48 PM#159

i don't have time to put into a "proper" message on the subject, but

 

it's a mistake to conflate role playing with immersion.  

they may be great buddies, and role playing probably would require some level of immersion to work.

 

 

 

but i never roleplay, and immersion is very important to me. 

i like being my real life self in another world.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

4/23/13 7:03:51 PM#160
Originally posted by corpusc

i don't have time to put into a "proper" message on the subject, but

 

it's a mistake to conflate role playing with immersion.  

they may be great buddies, and role playing probably would require some level of immersion to work.

but i never roleplay, and immersion is very important to me. 

i like being my real life self in another world.

I play like this too.  SWG was cool because you could pretty much just be yourself in that game and still basically be in RP mode following Star Wars lore.  Some people go full RP, and though I didn't do it much, I appreciated them.  They helped enhance my experience even more.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

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