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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

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329 posts found
  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11356

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

4/23/13 2:08:43 AM#161
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Phelcher 

Odd, now that you claim experience in the field, you've changed your idealogy..?

 Preproduction cost millions...  if you design a game to have zones walls and zoning, you cannot later make the decision to make it Open World (& have all the benifits that go with it). You are off your rocker if you think so. 

So when you are in PREPRODUCTION, is when you decide if your game is going to be a premium game, charging premium dollars to keep your Open World up...  or, free to play, keeping your inexpensive zones/themepark game open.

It is 100% directly related to your severs what game you intend on offering to the people. What server you design in beta, is the same server limitation that will exist 2 years later. That is the limitation of the developer, is his budget.

How can u not understand this.. u think each dev given $40 million uses it as wisely?  That they all chose open world servers, instead of cash cow instancing? That is why it is sooooo easy to make a MMO today and why there are so many... even you with 12 years claimed experience, you don't think Des take the $40million and use it cheaply for higher upfront profits, instead over the year revenues? 

Lastly, Server technology/net-code has gotten so cheap, that any premium game can use Open World design, yet greedy dev's keep going the 1999 route of zones & instancing..  thus themepark...   just cash cows using instancing to make millions off arcade players.

I don't think your capable of breaking down pre-production, production and release of a MMORPG... and all that goes into it.

1. Maybe you'll clarify how I "changed my ideology" later.

2. A zoned themepark is still an open world game.  It's a more popular, thus more profitable, type of open world game than a virtual world (which is light on the gameplay, and thus light on players.)

3. Instances are used for a similar reason: instanced gameplay is more fun, and since these devs earn money based on whether they're providing a fun experience to players they're interested in providing that type of gameplay in addition to the open world gameplay.  Some instance-only games exist (and are profitable for the same reasons,) but we're not talking about those because we're talking about MMORPGs (which implies players in a large shared space.)

4. Devs are "greedy" insofar as they see like 10 major game companies going out of business these last 12 months and are interested in continuing to eat.  Thus, they try to make busines decisions which make them money.  One such decision is that when you're in the game business you sell fun games.  Without fun, your product has nothing and you starve.

Lulz..^  u playing games?

Open World means: zoneless...      without zones walls, a developer cannat make 2 cities right next to each other, then make a zone wall+ forest, so it takes 20 minutes to walk around..

You are mistaken seamless, to mean zoneless.. (?) they is different alltogether. You claim to be part of the industry, yet you (again) illustrate you know very little of the basic types of games and their outlaying technology.

Phelch, I don't know if Axe works in the industry or not, but I do know he is making a lot of sense. Actually, he often does. Take a break and then come back and re-read his posts. It seems that at this point you're just arguing to argue and that's not helping either you or the discussion. 

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4732

4/23/13 2:15:12 AM#162

Zones and instances were what we used to talk about, when we had more open worlds and a reason to have them. Today we have MMO's which lead you on a path about 200ft across with the occassional more open area. Yet we still have zones and instances.

You do get the feeling MMO's could become games where we run along a path 20 feet across and we would still have zones and instances. :D

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3662

RIP City of Heroes!

4/23/13 2:24:25 AM#163
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by Axehilt
 

Open World means: zoneless...      without zones walls, a developer cannat make 2 cities right next to each other, then make a zone wall+ forest, so it takes 20 minutes to walk around..

 

You are mistaken seamless, to mean zoneless.. (?) they is different alltogether. You claim to be part of the industry, yet you (again) illustrate you know very little of the basic types of games and their outlaying technology.

Ok, lets get one thing straight: Zoning is the industry standard technique to handle players and loading assets. Pretty much all MMOs use them regardless of being entirely open world or not. World of Warcraft is zoned. Vanguard is zoned. Eve Online is zoned.

People use the term "seamless" when they refer to the fact that you can move through these zones "seamlessly" i.e. without a loading screen.

I think Quizzical would be happy to explain the technology further, or maybe you should look up some of the threads where he has explained how and why the stuff works the way it works.

Point is, you're wrong or you're intentionally disruptive.

 this is correct.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

4/23/13 11:29:18 AM#164
Originally posted by Scot

Zones and instances were what we used to talk about, when we had more open worlds and a reason to have them. Today we have MMO's which lead you on a path about 200ft across with the occassional more open area. Yet we still have zones and instances.

You do get the feeling MMO's could become games where we run along a path 20 feet across and we would still have zones and instances. :D

Yeh. Because there is less and less reason to have a virtual world. Look at highly acclaimed games like PoE .. it is like a public zone, and instanced gameplay.

While it may not be a MMO by your definition, the "proper" MMOs are competing with games like that.

  h0urg1ass

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/05
Posts: 284

4/23/13 12:22:39 PM#165

I basically want an open world such as Skryim that's about ten times as big, and I can play it with my friends.  

-Crafting based.

-Single Shard.

-Minimal Zoning.  

-Extremely minimal instancing.  

-Full looting.  

-Full PVP.  

-Stiff criminal system.

-Player built cities.

-No levels.

-Deep skill system with hundreds of skills.

-Skills can only be raised by using them, and degrade if unused.  They won't degrade to zero, but they will deteriorate with no use.

-Subtle magic system based on enchanting, buffing/debuffing, illusion, healing.... but no direct damage such as slinging fireballs at each other.

 

I could go on for a long time.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/23/13 12:28:13 PM#166
Isn't that almost exactly Darkfall? except the criminal system.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/23/13 12:40:50 PM#167
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by Axehilt
 

Open World means: zoneless...      without zones walls, a developer cannat make 2 cities right next to each other, then make a zone wall+ forest, so it takes 20 minutes to walk around..

 

You are mistaken seamless, to mean zoneless.. (?) they is different alltogether. You claim to be part of the industry, yet you (again) illustrate you know very little of the basic types of games and their outlaying technology.

Ok, lets get one thing straight: Zoning is the industry standard technique to handle players and loading assets. Pretty much all MMOs use them regardless of being entirely open world or not. World of Warcraft is zoned. Vanguard is zoned. Eve Online is zoned.

People use the term "seamless" when they refer to the fact that you can move through these zones "seamlessly" i.e. without a loading screen.

I think Quizzical would be happy to explain the technology further, or maybe you should look up some of the threads where he has explained how and why the stuff works the way it works.

Point is, you're wrong or you're intentionally disruptive.

 

I've been reading quizzical's posts for years.  But you are incoorect in your assumptions.

 

Zoning use to be the only way in which you could load assests, now they can be streamed on-the-fly..    The ideal of hitting a zone and loading all those assets before you can continue is a very old server technology. That form of server is so cheap, that me and you can make a WoW clone and do exactly that... very easily.

Zone games (ie: themeparks) are technically easy to make...

 

 

WoW is zoned...

It has fake zones walls and a peicemeal Continents.  Vanguard is seamless open world...  though it has "chunks" which are used to load/stream in assets as the players moves about their gameworld. But there are no zones in the game...   If you see a mountain, you can travel, or fly to it. No zones walls. World of Warcraft is all zones, with zones walls.

There is a clear line drawn and one that makes a gameworld super expensive, & thus costing your customers more.

 

 

understand, Seamless has a dual meaning...     no zone walls..   & (or) the crossing of zones is seamless without the player's knowledge. 

For instance, even though DOAC had zones, transfering between them was seamless...  

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/23/13 12:59:42 PM#168
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Phelcher
Originally posted by Axehilt
 

Open World means: zoneless...      without zones walls, a developer cannat make 2 cities right next to each other, then make a zone wall+ forest, so it takes 20 minutes to walk around..

 

You are mistaken seamless, to mean zoneless.. (?) they is different alltogether. You claim to be part of the industry, yet you (again) illustrate you know very little of the basic types of games and their outlaying technology.

Ok, lets get one thing straight: Zoning is the industry standard technique to handle players and loading assets. Pretty much all MMOs use them regardless of being entirely open world or not. World of Warcraft is zoned. Vanguard is zoned. Eve Online is zoned.

People use the term "seamless" when they refer to the fact that you can move through these zones "seamlessly" i.e. without a loading screen.

I think Quizzical would be happy to explain the technology further, or maybe you should look up some of the threads where he has explained how and why the stuff works the way it works.

Point is, you're wrong or you're intentionally disruptive.

 

I've been reading quizzical's posts for years.  But you are incoorect in your assumptions.

 

Zoning use to be the only way in which you could load assests, now they can be streamed on-the-fly..    The ideal of hitting a zone and loading all those assets before you can continue is a very old server technology. That form of server is so cheap, that me and you can make a WoW clone and do exactly that... very easily.

Zone games (ie: themeparks) are technically easy to make...

 

 

WoW is zoned...

It has fake zones walls and a peicemeal Continents.  Vanguard is seamless open world...  though it has "chunks" which are used to load/stream in assets as the players moves about their gameworld. But there are no zones in the game...   If you see a mountain, you can travel, or fly to it. No zones walls. World of Warcraft is all zones, with zones walls.

There is a clear line drawn and one that makes a gameworld super expensive, & thus costing your customers more.

 

 

understand, Seamless has a dual meaning...     no zone walls..   & (or) the crossing of zones is seamless without the player's knowledge. 

For instance, even though DOAC had zones, transfering between them was seamless...  

 

Vangaurd is not seamless.  It has zone walls, you are right they are called chunk lines but they do the same thing.  They are not physical barriers like a mountain but they do have a pause in game play to load up assets, just like a zone wall.

Yes it is open world as in you can go anywhere but it is not seamless. 

All they did was do away with a loading screen.  Crossing them, depending on the performance at the time, is a few seconds to several minutes.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  fantasyfreak112

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 466

4/23/13 1:06:52 PM#169

I agree with the OP but you can't use EQ2(at any time) as an example of a virtual world. One of the reasons that game is hated over EQ1 is because it was made into a game over a world. You click bells to teleport across the world, no racial starting cities, button spaming solo centered game. In the beginning you even picked up group xp debt from across the world if your party member died.

There was nothing immersive about it at all, in fact, EQ2 launch was one of the first signs of MMO's going to crap.

  Mors.Magne

Elite Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1264

4/23/13 1:12:38 PM#170

I agree with the OP up to a point - Eve (and Darkfall) try to be worlds, which is fantastic.

 

However, both examples are flawed worlds because everything in them is combat focused, in some way or another.

 

There should be more to a world than combat. 

 

SWG when it was released may have come close (I believe there were activities that had nothing to do with combat), but unfortunately I never had the pleasure of playing it.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

4/23/13 1:16:43 PM#171
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112

 

There was nothing immersive about it at all, in fact, EQ2 launch was one of the first signs of MMO's going to crap.

Crap for you. Great for many.

It is the first sign that finally devs realize that they are selling entertainment software, not worlds.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3539

Hipster

4/23/13 1:17:51 PM#172
Originally posted by Mors.Magne

I agree with the OP up to a point - Eve (and Darkfall) try to be worlds, which is fantastic.

 

However, both examples are flawed worlds because everything in them is combat focused, in some way or another.

 

There should be more to a world than combat. 

 

SWG when it was released may have come close, but unfortunately I never had the pleasure of playing it.

For SWG, think EvE where someone in game makes and designs the clothes for your avatar and someone builds captains quarters. The rest was combat centered.

Without combat being central you lose the game aspect, in which case you are playing an economic or social sim like entropia/second life or ATITD.

  bopice12

Novice Member

Joined: 12/28/12
Posts: 20

4/23/13 1:27:41 PM#173
Originally posted by koboldfodder

If they re-released original Everquest (and all it's expansions) with a massive updated graphics engine it would be (yet again) a smash hit.

 

There is a reason for that.

I agree.   eq + kunark , velious.    

 

EQ classic is the most fun addictive mmo by far.    I still play it . on eq mac.

 

reasons...  no questing to level..................................................... no level reqs on items.  ............  challenge....... risk...... shit gets scary.... etc etc....  traveling mattered........... factions that mattered........ i could go on and on.  Loot that mattered.....  rare named with rare drops . ..........OPEN dungeons........ etc etc.  everyone wasn't the same.....

eqoa is the 2nd best mmo.     <  isle of dread zone.... best zone ever in a mmo.

wow 3rd. < used to feel more like a world.  was something new. after soe changed eq1 into a Entirely different game in 2002. i complained about the quest grind of wow . 2 weeks after launch though.  first 50 on my server<<

gw2 4th.  very fun combat.  more like a action game.  

 

 

come to eq mac or p1999 if you want to play in the only true mmorpg left.   14 years of mmo'ing .   games are all about money now.   eq 1999 was made for the love of bringing DD to and onine world. not mainly for money.  They slept under their desks for months when they weremaking it..!!!!

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1174

Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute.

4/23/13 1:51:45 PM#174


Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
...There was nothing immersive about (EQ2) at all, in fact, EQ2 launch was one of the first signs of MMO's going to crap.

Same here. I finally tried EQ2 a few years ago. Facade game world; hated the voice acting, and felt no challenge whatsoever before I heard my first few dings. Uninstalled and never went back.



Originally posted by bopice12
...come to eq mac or p1999 if you want to play in the only true mmorpg left.

EpicEmu launched this month and solved problems plaguing p1999 for years.


Originally posted by bopice12
...p1999. They slept under their desks for months when they were making it..!!!!

And their personalities show it; which is the second reason I stopped playing on that server. First reason being everything at high level is permacamped by alts. Powerleveling is a real problem too.

I'm not going to a party full of clowns (F2P), then offer to buy them all drinks. -GregorMcgregor

Playing: XCom, Rome Total War, Master of Orion II, Majesty 2, and HOMM I.
Played: Everquest, Planetside, Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, EVE, UO.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

4/23/13 1:56:34 PM#175
Originally posted by bopice12
Originally posted by koboldfodder

If they re-released original Everquest (and all it's expansions) with a massive updated graphics engine it would be (yet again) a smash hit.

 

There is a reason for that.

I agree.   eq + kunark , velious.    

 

EQ classic is the most fun addictive mmo by far.    I still play it . on eq mac.

 

reasons...  no questing to level..................................................... no level reqs on items.  ............  challenge....... risk...... shit gets scary.... etc etc....  traveling mattered........... factions that mattered........ i could go on and on.  Loot that mattered.....  rare named with rare drops . ..........OPEN dungeons........ etc etc.  everyone wasn't the same.....

eqoa is the 2nd best mmo.     <  isle of dread zone.... best zone ever in a mmo.

wow 3rd. < used to feel more like a world.  was something new. after soe changed eq1 into a Entirely different game in 2002. i complained about the quest grind of wow . 2 weeks after launch though.  first 50 on my server<<

gw2 4th.  very fun combat.  more like a action game.  

 

 

come to eq mac or p1999 if you want to play in the only true mmorpg left.   14 years of mmo'ing .   games are all about money now.   eq 1999 was made for the love of bringing DD to and onine world. not mainly for money.  They slept under their desks for months when they weremaking it..!!!!

 

"true" MMORPG? Why would i care if it is not a fun game to me?

  fantasyfreak112

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 466

4/23/13 1:59:54 PM#176

Crap for you. Great for many.

It is the first sign that finally devs realize that they are selling entertainment software, not worlds.

Label it however you want, the net result is the same. Creating games over virtual worlds.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6476

4/23/13 2:01:48 PM#177
Stop moaning and come play Wushu!
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

4/23/13 2:02:54 PM#178
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112

Crap for you. Great for many.

It is the first sign that finally devs realize that they are selling entertainment software, not worlds.

Label it however you want, the net result is the same. Creating games over virtual worlds.

Yeh it is. And this is progress. Creating games over virtual world is where the market is going.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9937

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

4/23/13 2:26:46 PM#179


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones In comparison, Skyrim has a very open and dynamic world. How much time was spent staring at the screen waiting for something to complete, where there was nothing else happening? I would be willing to bet there was little or no equivalent to staring at a progress meter, yet Skyrim seems to have a well developed virtual world. Most waiting in MMOs is just that, waiting for the clock to tick by so developers can charge a little more money. It isn't necessary for the virtual world to be well done.  
Zero. If you visit a place before, click on a button and you telepor there. If there is a shop closed, click a button and time advances.

Waiting and nothing happens is bad game design, and not entertaining. Back in EQ days, that is what you have to endure if you want to play an online RPG with your friend (unless you want to play UO, which is worse).

It is great that no devs will go that path again. And if some niche devs happen to try again, i am glad there are plenty of alternatives and i can just ignore them.




It always worries me when you and I seem to be in agreement about something. I feel like I need to look over my shoulder because Darth Vader is standing there with a plate of cookies.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6476

4/23/13 2:30:52 PM#180
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones In comparison, Skyrim has a very open and dynamic world. How much time was spent staring at the screen waiting for something to complete, where there was nothing else happening? I would be willing to bet there was little or no equivalent to staring at a progress meter, yet Skyrim seems to have a well developed virtual world. Most waiting in MMOs is just that, waiting for the clock to tick by so developers can charge a little more money. It isn't necessary for the virtual world to be well done.  
Zero. If you visit a place before, click on a button and you telepor there. If there is a shop closed, click a button and time advances.

 

Waiting and nothing happens is bad game design, and not entertaining. Back in EQ days, that is what you have to endure if you want to play an online RPG with your friend (unless you want to play UO, which is worse).

It is great that no devs will go that path again. And if some niche devs happen to try again, i am glad there are plenty of alternatives and i can just ignore them.




It always worries me when you and I seem to be in agreement about something. I feel like I need to look over my shoulder because Darth Vader is standing there with a plate of cookies.

 

It virtual worlds there are down times and inconveience.

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