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DayZ

DayZ 

General Discussion  » DayZ Standalone: Last Hope for MMORPG Gaming

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27 posts found
  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

 
OP  4/22/13 5:03:12 PM#1

Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind?  Most make you kill 10 wolves 1,000,000 times.  Once you have finally reached the end game then they find says to grind out gear instead of levels.  The more I play games in the MMORPG genre, the more I loath character progression.  Instead of character progression they should just call it boring grinding. 

 

How many MMORPGs would still be fun if all progression was removed?  I can't think of many.  Maybe Age of Wushu and Darkfall because they have fun combat and PVP.  I'm sure there are some others.  Definitely no AAA MMORPGs though.  Most MMORPGs just seem like the huge behavioral conditioning traps to get players to pay subscription or buy cash shop items.  There is always some mind numbing task to do and when people run out of mind numbing tasks?  Well they complain about "lack of content" and quit. 

 

I posted this observation in the DayZ thread because I truly feel that DayZ's design decisions are the only hope for a truly fun MMORPg completely void of all psychological tricks, brainwashing, behavioral conditioning ect.  In DayZ there is no character progression besides just finding stuff.  The end game starts immediately without all the godawful boring grinding.  Without the curse of progression fun starts immediately.  And how does it keep things interesting?  Permadeath.  So many people hate the idea of permadeath because they don't want to lose all their hard earned progression.  And can you blame them?  I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to do all that boring shit again.  Get rid of progression and suddenly permadeath is very manageable.  It might suck to get killed but it keeps things interesting.  It also adds a real sense of consequence in the world where actions have real meaning.

 

I truly hope some other MMORPGs take note of alternative design decisions and get rid of the curse of progression.  We don't need to brainwash the youth of the world into enjoying repetitive boring tasks...or do we?  Is this truly a plot to condition the younger generation into doing repetitive jobs and enjoying it?  Are MMORPGs the new opiate of the masses?  Well I doubt it, but they are definitely boring as all hell.  Why can't we have a living world to explore without the curse of character progression.  It locks the game into never having any sort of real player interaction like permadeath or player looting because people can't stand to part with their belongings since they probably had to kill 10000 donkeys to get that stuff in the first place. 

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10377

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

4/22/13 5:30:13 PM#2

The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  jackel88

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 13

4/22/13 5:36:33 PM#3
Originally posted by lizardbones

The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

I'm missing the point you are making with this post?

  TuanLau

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 6

4/22/13 5:39:56 PM#4
Originally posted by lizardbones

The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

 

And said development won't be affected. I think you left out that fun fact.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/dayz-creator-taking-two-months-off-to-climb-mt-everest-6406955

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

 
OP  4/22/13 5:40:12 PM#5
Originally posted by jackel88
Originally posted by lizardbones

The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

I'm missing the point you are making with this post?

Maybe it is that Dean Hall is so awesome that he is taking a break to do one of the most difficult adventures possible in real life :) 

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  jackel88

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 13

4/22/13 5:46:39 PM#6
Originally posted by BigHatLogan
Originally posted by jackel88
Originally posted by lizardbones

The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

I'm missing the point you are making with this post?

Maybe it is that Dean Hall is so awesome that he is taking a break to do one of the most difficult adventures possible in real life :) 

I think you are probably right on the mark there.

We all take time off work, and I'd say thats a damn good reason to have a couple of months off.

 

Back on topic - Can't wait to give the standalone a go. I played WarZ for a while, and despite its downfalls (put lightly there) I really enjoyed my time on there. DayZ is going to give us so much more. The survival aspect is what will keep players engaged in my opinion. Sod 'levels' - replace that with hours ;)

  korent1991

Elite Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1401

4/22/13 5:51:26 PM#7

dayz mod is really fun and I hope it'll be really good as a standalone game (because the arma engine really sucks balls).

tho, games like ArcheAge or EVE online do offer good progression and freedom with somewhat severe consequences. I know more than few people who stopped playing EVE for a while because they lost a ship with cargo. :D

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3194

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

4/22/13 5:55:23 PM#8


Originally posted by BigHatLogan
Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 

Maybe because of the Rpg part?


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  jackel88

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 13

4/22/13 6:06:07 PM#9
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by BigHatLogan
Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 

 

Maybe because of the Rpg part?

Surely you don't need to grind for exp in order to play a role?

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

 
OP  4/22/13 6:09:24 PM#10
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by BigHatLogan
Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 

 

Maybe because of the Rpg part?

Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  Callin

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/12
Posts: 99

People are sheep, Hence the Lamb of God -me

4/22/13 6:14:44 PM#11
Dont forget that Dean made his Dev Blog Update thingy from Mt Everest Base Camp. He had to keep his climb scheduel and I dont blame him. Non Refundable 100k (his words)... yea im going climbing. 
  MMORPGtester

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/06
Posts: 61

4/22/13 6:17:05 PM#12

DayZ Standalone: Last Hope for MMORPG Gaming

newsflash, dayz IS NOT a mmorpg.

 

massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-basedcomputer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others

 

mas·sive

 [mas-iv]  Show IPA

adjective

1. consisting of or forming a large mass; bulky and heavy: massivecolumns.

2. large and heavy-looking: massive forehead.

3. large in scale, amount, or degree: massive breakdown incommunications; massive reductions in spending.

4solid or substantial; great or imposing: massive erudition.

5. Mineralogy having no outward crystal form, althoughsometimes crystalline in internal structure.

Many say Dayz maps will host at top 50 players, This in itself is NOT massive.

Don't get me started on the other letters like role playing.

 
  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3194

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

4/22/13 6:17:58 PM#13


Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by BigHatLogan Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 
  Maybe because of the Rpg part?
Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!

Role Playing computer game far back as inception have a had a progression system of some type. Progression inherently means time investment * work = reward (aka grind).

Trying to reinvent it by removing grind results in an, Action or arcade game which ultimately makes the game shallow.

Seems to me a lot of people these days didn't really love the rpg formula to begin with and immigrated to the mmorpg genre.

---

What we have with Dayz is a MMOFPS which involves shooting people in a massive persistent environment with little to no actual progression in terms of character outside of the typical fps structure. And i'm fine with that


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

 
OP  4/22/13 6:20:54 PM#14
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by BigHatLogan Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 
  Maybe because of the Rpg part?
Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!

 

Role Playing computer game far back as inception have a had a progression system of some type. Progression inherently means time investment * work = reward (aka grind).

Trying to reinvent it by removing grind results in an, Action or arcade game which ultimately makes the game shallow.

Seems to me a lot of people these days didn't really love the rpg formula to begin with and immigrated to the rpg genre.

Single player RPGs had some progression as a kind of side feature augmenting a storyline.  Progression is the only real feature in these theme park MMORPG games and it has become this weird substitute for fun. 

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  jackel88

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 13

4/22/13 6:23:55 PM#15
Originally posted by MMORPGtester

DayZ Standalone: Last Hope for MMORPG Gaming

newsflash, dayz IS NOT a mmorpg.

 

massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-basedcomputer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others

 

mas·sive

 [mas-iv]  Show IPA

adjective

1. consisting of or forming a large mass; bulky and heavy: massivecolumns.

2. large and heavy-looking: massive forehead.

3. large in scale, amount, or degree: massive breakdown incommunications; massive reductions in spending.

4solid or substantial; great or imposing: massive erudition.

5. Mineralogy having no outward crystal form, althoughsometimes crystalline in internal structure.

Many say Dayz maps will host at top 50 players, This in itself is NOT massive.

Don't get me started on the other letters like role playing.

 

I'm going to disobey here - and ask you to get started on those letters. I'm interested in what you have to say.

I do agree with the above though. It can't be classed as massive, clearly.

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

 
OP  4/22/13 6:24:40 PM#16
Originally posted by MMORPGtester

DayZ Standalone: Last Hope for MMORPG Gaming

newsflash, dayz IS NOT a mmorpg.

 

massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-basedcomputer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others

 

mas·sive

 [mas-iv]  Show IPA

adjective

1. consisting of or forming a large mass; bulky and heavy: massivecolumns.

2. large and heavy-looking: massive forehead.

3. large in scale, amount, or degree: massive breakdown incommunications; massive reductions in spending.

4solid or substantial; great or imposing: massive erudition.

5. Mineralogy having no outward crystal form, althoughsometimes crystalline in internal structure.

Many say Dayz maps will host at top 50 players, This in itself is NOT massive.

Don't get me started on the other letters like role playing.

 

Massive is an ambiguous term.  You rarely see more than 50 people in a single MMORPG zone, so how is that different than 50 on a Day Z server when they are inter connected.  Role Playing doesn't require character progression (aka boring grind).  Maybe DayZ isn't a MMORPG because it is actually fun while MMORPGs require an element of behavioral conditioning to substitute for fun.  The point of this thread is that a lot of future MMORPG developers could take a page from DayZ and design a persistent world to be fun instead of designing a persistent world for people to do boring tasks in exchange for fish biscuits or whatever.   

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10377

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

4/22/13 6:26:20 PM#17


Originally posted by TuanLau

Originally posted by lizardbones The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.
 

And said development won't be affected. I think you left out that fun fact.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/dayz-creator-taking-two-months-off-to-climb-mt-everest-6406955




Well, that's actually good then.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3194

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

4/22/13 6:27:50 PM#18


Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by BigHatLogan Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 
  Maybe because of the Rpg part?
Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!
  Role Playing computer game far back as inception have a had a progression system of some type. Progression inherently means time investment * work = reward (aka grind). Trying to reinvent it by removing grind results in an, Action or arcade game which ultimately makes the game shallow. Seems to me a lot of people these days didn't really love the rpg formula to begin with and immigrated to the rpg genre.
Single player RPGs had some progression as a kind of side feature augmenting a storyline.  Progression is the only real feature in these theme park MMORPG games and it has become this weird substitute for fun. 

Right, But mmorpgs were built on the premise of those single player rpg's. People actually enjoyed the "grind" in those games because trying to get that character maxed out or acquiring parts for an epic sword was a fun past time.



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  Kyleran

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Joined: 9/13/06
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4/22/13 6:35:05 PM#19
I was there when single player RPGs were first invented, and they were ask about progressing your character (s) before you could advance the story. In fact I recall grinding gold in Bards tale 1, (1980s) at least until I figured out how to hack the character files.

RPGs have always been about character progression, in fact I'd call it the defining trait. What the OP is describing we used to call "adventure" games which largely died off due to a lack of interest.

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  jackel88

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 13

4/22/13 6:40:54 PM#20
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by BigHatLogan Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 
  Maybe because of the Rpg part?
Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!
  Role Playing computer game far back as inception have a had a progression system of some type. Progression inherently means time investment * work = reward (aka grind). Trying to reinvent it by removing grind results in an, Action or arcade game which ultimately makes the game shallow. Seems to me a lot of people these days didn't really love the rpg formula to begin with and immigrated to the rpg genre.
Single player RPGs had some progression as a kind of side feature augmenting a storyline.  Progression is the only real feature in these theme park MMORPG games and it has become this weird substitute for fun. 

 

Right, But mmorpgs were built on the premise of those single player rpg's. People actually enjoyed the "grind" in those games because trying to get that character maxed out or acquiring parts for an epic sword was a fun past time.

 

They may have been built on that premise, but that should be no reason for devs to avoid trying a different approach. We are swamped with MMORPGs which are very much the same. I think it will be good to see a change. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is the saving grace of MMORPGs, and I'm certainly not saying its definitely going to be what I'm looking for. But I want to give it a go.

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