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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » 10 people are kicking the guy, guess I should too

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430 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 3:26:55 PM#321
Devious

Planetside 2 doesn't have serious faction imbalance issues. Probably because they went hard on faction lock unlike gw2, tsw, swtor etc..

You are mistaken.
  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6521

"I fight so you don't have to."

4/22/13 3:29:27 PM#322
Originally posted by Iselin

...

No one here is saying that RvR has the most MMORPG appeal... that would be the PvE-based WOW that has the most appeal obviously. If mass appeal was the only criteria, this would be another WOW-formula clone. As a matter of fact, the fact they decided to go with a less popular system, shows more, not less integrity and dedication.

Except they didnt go for a less popular formula. Everything except the PvP areas is your standard, WoW like, ThemePark quest-hub type of gameplay.

So what they "cleverly" did is to combine DAoC RvR with WoW PvE, using Elder Scrolls skin.

Will it work? Dunno. But I do know that it will not be very much like Skyrim or other Elder Scrolls games which I believe is what many are griping about.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/22/13 3:31:24 PM#323
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Devious

Planetside 2 doesn't have serious faction imbalance issues. Probably because they went hard on faction lock unlike gw2, tsw, swtor etc..

You are mistaken.

Yeah, no.

 

Faction lock prevented players from rolling multiple characters on a server. This never in any way prevented a player from looking at faction count, rolling a character and looking at the progress each one was making in their fights, then deleting the character and later rolling the one they thought was performing best.

A single character being rolled and not being allowed to change factions after creation means next to nothing. This is why I mentioned 'rerolling' before.

 

This happened a bunch and still does happen. The difference at this point is that people have been playing long enough that they would be losing a good chunk of time invested to make a new char, and likely have a person on each faction any ways.

 

I actually have a TR and a NC on the same server together (because of server merges) and it does actually make me consider faction jumping from time to time depending on how things are going. 

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 3:32:32 PM#324
Nanfoodle:
Sorry but RPS are one of the few gaming sites I trust.

They rightfully called out diablo3, sim city and all the boring cod iterations, they've pointed me in the direction of severs cool indie games and they like mmos I like e.g. eve and ps2.

If they say TESO has wow style led by the nose pve, it has wow style led by the nose pve.

Hopefully they can fix this, although the anti-rvr clamour probably means they will alter things elsewhere.
  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6521

"I fight so you don't have to."

4/22/13 3:35:06 PM#325
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Nanfoodle:
Sorry but RPS are one of the few gaming sites I trust.

They rightfully called out diablo3, sim city and all the boring cod iterations, they've pointed me in the direction of severs cool indie games and they like mmos I like e.g. eve and ps2.

If they say TESO has wow style led by the nose pve, it has wow style led by the nose pve.

Hopefully they can fix this, although the anti-rvr clamour probably means they will alter things elsewhere.

They will likely not "fix" it because they probably see it as working as intended.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 3:36:45 PM#326
So rank these games in order of balance.

Ps2
Gw2
Tsw
Swtor
Rift SL
Wow

ps2 wins hands down. My server is 37% nc, 32% tr, 31% vs. I'm vs, we regularly win alerts / dominate continents etc..

Can't say the same for gw2, you pretty much know who's going to win a WvW cycle as soon as they pair the servers.
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3876

4/22/13 3:42:27 PM#327
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Iselin

There's no sense of arguing about the influence of broadband saturation on the online game market--especially online games that have real-time components. There is a direct relationship. This is a fact not an opinion.

There's no sense of using 2001 numbers to discuss 2013. There wasn't a single MMO in the top 10 PC games sold in 2001--it was a niche market. Expecting 20K customers is not a mark of dedication, just the economic reality at the time.

No one here is saying that RvR has the most MMORPG appeal... that would be the PvE-based WOW that has the most appeal obviously. If mass appeal was the only criteria, this would be another WOW-formula clone. As a matter of fact, the fact they decided to go with a less popular system, shows more, not less integrity and dedication.

Except they didnt go for a less popular formula. Everything except the PvP areas is your standard, WoW like, ThemePark quest-hub type of gameplay.

So what they "cleverly" did is to combine DAoC RvR with WoW PvP, using Elder Scrolls skin.

Will it work? Dunno. But I do know that it will not be very much like Skyrim or other Elder Scrolls games which I believe is what many are griping about.

Skyrim had minimal levels but if you chose to follow the various story lines--which most people did--it was pretty WOW-like complete with quests that sent you to appropriate places. It even had areas that were locked to you until you had learned the proper shout required to get through the obstacle. Same is true of all of the TES games going back to Arena.

The main story lines are guided and quest driven. Same here.

The only difference is that here (after level 10) you can level with just RvR--if you have the patience to wait for fights to happen that is, and that they have levels.

There isn't a single level-based game I know of where you can go off to any PvE area you choose and grind. You could push the boundaries by grouping but only up to the point where your abilities either miss too often or the damage you do is insignificant with the mobs level-dependent hit-points.

BTW, a no level MMO would have no character advancement. Or if it did by getting better gear and better at your abilities, it would eventually trivialize the content. Only way around that dilemma I can think of is having mobs auto-bolstered to match you.,.which in turn would lead to personal instances. Now we're back at a single player game

  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1320

4/22/13 3:44:09 PM#328
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Nanfoodle:
Sorry but RPS are one of the few gaming sites I trust.

They rightfully called out diablo3, sim city and all the boring cod iterations, they've pointed me in the direction of severs cool indie games and they like mmos I like e.g. eve and ps2.

If they say TESO has wow style led by the nose pve, it has wow style led by the nose pve.

Hopefully they can fix this, although the anti-rvr clamour probably means they will alter things elsewhere.

They will likely not "fix" it because they probably see it as working as intended.

It probably is working as intended.

 

The thing is how do you implement the system TES has, enemys level as the player does into an MMO?

Imagine if Skyrim was an MMO. You got a player whos level 45 and wants to start exploring around Riften. You also have a new player who wants to explore Riften first. You also have hundreds of other players inbetween those levels also in the area. What level are the enemy NPC's?

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/22/13 3:46:18 PM#329
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
 
 I don't feel that the Elder Scrolls world fits in with a 3 faction RvR system.

 

And many of us feel like it fits well.

And some feel like only a sandbox would fit.

And some feel like only ffa PvP would fit.

And some feel only a co-op PvE game would fit.

And each side has its own arguments

And each side brings up RvR

And your point is? Am I not allowed to voice my opinion? What are you saying with this post exactly?

Many of you feel it fits well, just as many don't.

Some feel only a sandbox would fit, I think more sandbox than themepark would be a good way to go.

Some feel FFA PvP would fit, and in regards to a TES game it would  in my opinion, given the freedom we experienced in TES games, although I'd prefer an EVE approach rather than a DF or MO approach.

Some want only co-op PvE, and that would also work. I think it would work better than the 3 locked factions we can expect.

Each side has it's own arguments, which is a good thing isn't it? Aren't we all here to discuss the game? Are we not all ES fans? Don't we all want the game to be the best it can possibly be? We may not agree on how to deliver that but we have every right to share out thoughts.

Each side brings up RvR, and that's probably because it's the biggest single point of contention. Not only does it dictate the way PvP will be done but it also has a knock on effect on the PvE experience of the game, and probably due to balancing issues it also forces a class system on a game franchise that never had fixed classes. I do try to avoid it as a single point when I can.

 

Now, you'll have to forgive me for being completely dense but I really don't get the point of your post. Are you demonstrating the many different views held or are you simply writting all these off because you disagree with them? I'm not being deliberately obtuse, it's just there's no punchline.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3876

4/22/13 3:50:37 PM#330
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
 
 I don't feel that the Elder Scrolls world fits in with a 3 faction RvR system.

 

And many of us feel like it fits well.

And some feel like only a sandbox would fit.

And some feel like only ffa PvP would fit.

And some feel only a co-op PvE game would fit.

And each side has its own arguments

And each side brings up RvR

And your point is? Am I not allowed to voice my opinion? What are you saying with this post exactly?

Many of you feel it fits well, just as many don't.

Some feel only a sandbox would fit, I think more sandbox than themepark would be a good way to go.

Some feel FFA PvP would fit, and in regards to a TES game it would  in my opinion, given the freedom we experienced in TES games, although I'd prefer an EVE approach rather than a DF or MO approach.

Some want only co-op PvE, and that would also work. I think it would work better than the 3 locked factions we can expect.

Each side has it's own arguments, which is a good thing isn't it? Aren't we all here to discuss the game? Are we not all ES fans? Don't we all want the game to be the best it can possibly be? We may not agree on how to deliver that but we have every right to share out thoughts.

Each side brings up RvR, and that's probably because it's the biggest single point of contention. Not only does it dictate the way PvP will be done but it also has a knock on effect on the PvE experience of the game, and probably due to balancing issues it also forces a class system on a game franchise that never had fixed classes. I do try to avoid it as a single point when I can.

 

Now, you'll have to forgive me for being completely dense but I really don't get the point of your post. Are you demonstrating the many different views held or are you simply writting all these off because you disagree with them? I'm not being deliberately obtuse, it's just there's no punchline.

The part in red would also have been my preference and I've said it many times. PVP everywhere with real consequences for behaving like an asshat is always my preference.

The point? That you keep continuously mentioning RvR as something only one of the groups brings up when in fact all do.

From what I've noticed, you actually bring it up more often than most. You get the point now?

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

 
OP  4/22/13 3:51:47 PM#331
Originally posted by Deivos
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Later yes, start no. As it takes time for servers in ESO case conflicts to settle into their grove. My guess things wont start to do that for 3 months+ and things wont really start to till 12 months+. At best at the start you can make an educated guess by what guilds are joining what conflicts.

That's an optimistic estimation of time.

 

A simple point of reference is to point at Planetside 2. It's obviously a condition emphasized byt the fact that game is nothing but PvP, but it's faction balance issues with stacking the competition came almost immediately. I'd say suprisingly it's gotten more balanced over time, but that has somewhat to do with SOE toying with the servers.

 

GW2 had rather immediate faction bsalance issues as well, it was a large secondary aspect as to why people wanted server transfers (the primary one being the awkward server structure for the game).

 

The balance of factions in PvP is going to become an issue as soone as people start stepping onto the field for the first time and watching for a few days to see how each faction is faring.

 

Within the first week you will have rerolls stacking sides.

What a shock, a game with no level system got its balance worked out quicker. All they have is battle rank and that counts for very little. Point I made is, given time it willl balance out. Once the MMO hoppers leave and people settle into their main chars and get top level. The guilds get to know eachother and then communities start to from. Thats when the real game starts.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 3:53:28 PM#332
As I pointed out they went with rvr as a compromise.

I would play a fantasy eve thousands wouldn't.

I wouldn't touch a pure pve mmo. Or even a wow style queue to do instanced crap setup.
  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/22/13 3:54:14 PM#333
Originally posted by ShakyMo
So rank these games in order of balance.

Ps2
Gw2
Tsw
Swtor
Rift SL
Wow

ps2 wins hands down. My server is 37% nc, 32% tr, 31% vs. I'm vs, we regularly win alerts / dominate continents etc..

Can't say the same for gw2, you pretty much know who's going to win a WvW cycle as soon as they pair the servers.

Didn't say it wasn't balanced now. I said out the gate it had plenty of blance issues. SOE has been good about seeking blance in that game.

 

Or do you not remember when the servers had an upwards of a consistent 50% playerbase dedicated to a single faction?

That was the case on US West 3, it had that kinda bias for the NC. It was frakkin' rediculous and people couldn't compete on the TR and VS.

 

Things that stand true for one server doesn't apply to every server. You're might be a magical balance, but on the server my VS lives on (my main is VS too) we still regularly sit as 25% of the faction total with NC being the majority. We haven't had a server merge or anything for that one yet too, because it's actually pretty well populated. As a result, that faction bias is still there.

 

That being said, even with the least numbers we regularly cap the server.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 3:54:32 PM#334
You level in ps2

If not what are all those upgrades you buy with certs.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 3:57:39 PM#335
Agh devios, I should point out I'm in the UK.

American servers always seem to have more of the "pile on the winning side" mentality. It was the same with warhammer, you guys had some crazy 80% servers and stuff, our worst imbalances were around 60%+

We've never had a server over here where a side had 50%+



  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/22/13 3:59:59 PM#336
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

What a shock, a game with no level system got its balance worked out quicker. All they have is battle rank and that counts for very little. Point I made is, given time it willl balance out. Once the MMO hoppers leave and people settle into their main chars and get top level. The guilds get to know eachother and then communities start to from. Thats when the real game starts.

I just don't agree with the notion that this will happen.

 

You claim to have played DAoC. then you should remember the faction bias of many servers. Sure some might have been balanced, but it was far from abnormal for midgard , albion, or the hibbies to have a dominant hold on a server.

 

There was no 'balancing out' on those servers. People picked the strong side and settled down.

 

WoW isn't a three way conflict and it's world PvP is a joke, it's cross server PvP mechanics have also solved some of the issues here too. However, if you think back on that game too, because it was only two faction, it was easy to tell how faction bias affected that games servers too. Many of them went very clearly to the alliance or horde simply because of players stacking faction.

 

The point you made is the one I'm saying is off. It trusts that a majority people aren't going to take the path of least resistance in order to attain the things they desire.

 

EDIT: That clarifies plenty Shaky.

We seem to have a strong trait overall to metagame in the US. Won't say it's a universal aspect, but it's common enough to be able to be a characteristic trait of almost any MMO one could play at least.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

 
OP  4/22/13 4:00:39 PM#337
Originally posted by ShakyMo
You level in ps2

If not what are all those upgrades you buy with certs.

I could be worng, never play it. Just read up on it and see lots of info on no levels or level cap. Just battle rank that means very little.

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/22/13 4:01:43 PM#338
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
 
 I don't feel that the Elder Scrolls world fits in with a 3 faction RvR system.

 

And many of us feel like it fits well.

And some feel like only a sandbox would fit.

And some feel like only ffa PvP would fit.

And some feel only a co-op PvE game would fit.

And each side has its own arguments

And each side brings up RvR

And your point is? Am I not allowed to voice my opinion? What are you saying with this post exactly?

Many of you feel it fits well, just as many don't.

Some feel only a sandbox would fit, I think more sandbox than themepark would be a good way to go.

Some feel FFA PvP would fit, and in regards to a TES game it would  in my opinion, given the freedom we experienced in TES games, although I'd prefer an EVE approach rather than a DF or MO approach.

Some want only co-op PvE, and that would also work. I think it would work better than the 3 locked factions we can expect.

Each side has it's own arguments, which is a good thing isn't it? Aren't we all here to discuss the game? Are we not all ES fans? Don't we all want the game to be the best it can possibly be? We may not agree on how to deliver that but we have every right to share out thoughts.

Each side brings up RvR, and that's probably because it's the biggest single point of contention. Not only does it dictate the way PvP will be done but it also has a knock on effect on the PvE experience of the game, and probably due to balancing issues it also forces a class system on a game franchise that never had fixed classes. I do try to avoid it as a single point when I can.

 

Now, you'll have to forgive me for being completely dense but I really don't get the point of your post. Are you demonstrating the many different views held or are you simply writting all these off because you disagree with them? I'm not being deliberately obtuse, it's just there's no punchline.

The part in red would also have been my preference and I've said it many times. PVP everywhere with real consequences for behaving like an asshat is always my preference.

The point? That you keep continuously mentioning RvR as something only one of the groups brings up when in fact all do.

From what I've noticed, you actually bring it up more often than most. You get the point now?

Yes! Thank you. Ok I get it now.

In my own defense I will say that the reason it keeps coming up in my posts is usually because it's in reply to something thats been ongoing. That and the fact that everyone and his dog keeps bringing it up, and having such a strong opinion on the subject I just can't let it alone when I see these posts.

It's nice to see we're actually more like minded than it would have first appeared. Yes, a more FFA system would just be more in keeping with the franchise.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 4:03:21 PM#339
Think of certs working like rr in daoc. It's not the sane thing, but its a simmilar rate of progression / power gap.

E.g. it isn't like wow, but it isn't like gw2 with no progression either.
  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

4/22/13 4:05:19 PM#340

All I've gotta say is when a developer claims to target a specific audience, they better pay attention to what the majority of that audience wants from said game. In this case, a TES game needs to be a TES game. Not a TES-esque game. 

I just read the Game Informer review on ESO and that guy is raving about how fun the game is and feels like TES, yet on the other hand admits that the game is far more linear than other TES games. You go from one quest hub to the next. I think this is probably the main storyline, but he says each area has some good side quests, area quests, and plenty of nuggets for explorers. The point being, when you change things that don't need changing in an IP series, fans get upset. They changed the way content is delivered, they've gated content and zones by level, they've melded TES/GW2 combat into one (IMO) craptacular model.

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