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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Cash Shops Ruined MMO's

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119 posts found
  michniewicz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 6

 
OP  4/21/13 11:01:14 PM#1
Im sick of it.  The game is made purposly unfun or slow so you're lured into paying real money.  What happened to making a FUN game and letting that drive all the sales of boxes?  Why do I gotta play a gimped game and then pay to make it bearable?  None of these games design choices would stand up if they were regular buy the box game.  For example planet side 2,  I played it for a few days and started collecting Certs which is like the in game currency used to unlock weapons and what not,  but then I look at the cost of an unlock is and I have to play this game a week to all day everday to unlock 1 weapon.  What the hell is that?   Its cash shop crap.  Would far cry 3 been fun if you couldnt get a weapon until you farmed the game for a week?  Just little things like that, that ruine the games fun , all in the name of making more money that just has me discouraged with these pathetic games.  Im not spending a dime on them, if i had money to blow id buy a real game, I dont ever want to touch a game with a cash shop or anythign close to it , AGAIN.   That includes Guild Wars 2.
  RizelStar

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2818

We all breathe and we all die.

4/21/13 11:04:16 PM#2
Holy shit where can I download this Far Cry 3 MMO?

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/21/13 11:06:43 PM#3

As opposed to a game purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month, or putting in a bunch of things that slow down your levelling or combat just to get you to sub another month.

IMO there are a number of f2p games that are better than many p2p games now.

The first time I played WoW it took me a solid week of farming to get the 100 gold needed to get a mount.  Completely unfun, but the rest of the game was fun so I kept at it.  When I did get the mount there was no sense of achievement, nothing special or unique.  I will never play that way again.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  michniewicz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 6

 
OP  4/21/13 11:06:52 PM#4
Originally posted by RizelStar
Holy shit where can I download this Far Cry 3 MMO?

Uh way to miss the point,   which is that gameplay design choices that wouldnt be tolerated in a buy the box game are  tolerated in mmo's.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4138

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/21/13 11:13:08 PM#5

I agree, op.

 

Venge, if a game keeps me entertained multiple months it has earned my money. How they achieve this is their problem. slowing me down is fine FOR ME if it doesn't bother me.

 

yesterday I ate a steak. 37 dollars with desert and tip. took 45 minutes from enering to leaving the place. with this money I can play for 70 days. I'd say it's a pretty good deal. I was hungry again by the end of the day.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/21/13 11:15:01 PM#6
Originally posted by Robokapp

I agree, op.

 

Venge, if a game keeps me entertained multiple months it has earned my money. How they achieve this is their problem. slowing me down is fine FOR ME if it doesn't bother me.

 

yesterday I ate a steak. 37 dollars with desert and tip. took 45 minutes from enering to leaving the place. with this money I can play for 70 days. I'd say it's a pretty good deal. I was hungry again by the end of the day.

 Yes, how they achieve it is their problem.  If a f2p game slows me down and it's still fun I don't care, same with a p2p. 

The point was there was no difference there between a f2p and p2p in terms of them putting in roadblocks like that.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2706

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

4/21/13 11:19:01 PM#7

I happen to agree that cash shops have killed my enjoyment. Nothing breaks my immersion like paying as I go, having my credit card at hand along with my computer as I journey in games.

Unfortunately, cash shops are here to stay. There are enough people who care not about them and some who pay enough to keep the games afloat that they will not be gone in a long, long while, if ever. With F2P games, some even consider it a mini-game to get as far as they can for free.

I would much rather pay once a month and then play without worrying about paying as I go. That way, my real world and the game world stay separated.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  RizelStar

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2818

We all breathe and we all die.

4/21/13 11:19:40 PM#8
Originally posted by michniewicz
Originally posted by RizelStar
Holy shit where can I download this Far Cry 3 MMO?

Uh way to miss the point,   which is that gameplay design choices that wouldnt be tolerated in a buy the box game are  tolerated in mmo's.

*Whoosh*

Anyway so you do mention that it goes for Guild Wars 2, it makes me wonder do people ever sit back and look at the game design when bringing up the cash shop. Maybe they look at the cash shop and not the game design, I have no clue, same goes for other MMOs with cash shops. I tend to do so but maybe that is why I don't mind cash shops.

Especially when I can get things I [want] in the cash shop without spending a [dime].

It's just a thought that, patience, also not like I'm paying 15 a month, and those paying in the cash shop effect me...nope.

Though then again it all goes by [game design].

Edited: It's even worse when a game is accused of doing so but still doesn't slow you down, then again it could be a [mind] thing...hmmmmmm.

 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

4/21/13 11:27:39 PM#9

Using a cash shop to accelerate your progress in a game is bit like getting married because dating just isn't fun any more.

  TheCrow2k

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/09
Posts: 944

4/21/13 11:37:17 PM#10
Dont forget Greedy developers wanting to charge box price + $15 a month subscription to play clones of wow & single player MMO's is how we got to where we are now. Consumers have spoken & they don't want sub to play anymore. The new way is B2P & F2P the later of which needs micro transactions to survive. That sais some games have idiotic microtrans systems & some are quite good. What I personally can't stand is B2P games that have a cash shop, that is just BS. If developers are sensible they can actually have both, take a look at the model for Shadowrun Online, more small MMO's should consider going that route.
  Yaevindusk

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1101

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

4/21/13 11:40:15 PM#11

 

MMOs today are just giant cash grabs.  To get some while the gettin's good.  Things will be leveled more when new technologies surface that allow for increased audiences, and evolved payment models will surface (and monthly fees will likely perish as the console crowd joins the MMO world; they who mostly can't fathom renting a game they bought, but seem to absolutely love DLC so long as it isn't day one DLC).  We'll be seeing an advancement in thought, design and just what is a MMO.

It is unlikely that we will see cash shops go away, simply because the "newblood" that will soon enter the console era of next generation online games and social connectivity are being trained to enjoy micro transactions and expansions.  The game's industry is a great beast, and while the community is outspoken, it is still very easy to manipulate and direct how to "train" a crowd to accept something by the next generation.  My thoughts turn towards Ultima Online and how people were set against paying monthly fees.

$9 a month?  Outrageous!   Bandwidth and staff?  Meeeeeh... just give me the game!

Then something interesting happened in that bandwidth costs went down, but the premium model nearly doubled and millions flocked to it in the form of World of Warcraft.  This was during a time when F2P was a true cash grab equal to how facebook games have been in this generation.  This is also what some people remember of the old F2P model and associate it simply because they do not understand the new (or have been burned by a company that still managed to get it wrong).

Now we're an an impass with the genre being split three ways.  Most of the cash goes to F2P titles statistically, with second being B2P based on the limited releases we've seen.  P2Ps are lucky if they don't go F2P within the year the last decade.  WoW isn't included in this as WoW isn't a new game.   We're now starting to see (well, we've been seeing it the past five years or so) P2P games being released as P2P simply to milk the P2P crowd and recooperate more of their money before going F2P and draw in a different crowd.  Some didn't intend on it at start, but quite a few did; Wildstar is considering this approach in one of their interviews, but they're still undecided as a whole on what payment model to follow.

 

Which one offends me the least?  I haven't been offended by Guild Wars 2 yet, and there was the abililty to buy their gems with actual gold that you made in the game.  Plus it seems that the only real B2P option we see (GW2) that started as B2P has the most updates, with some even changing the world if the story is appropriate for it or the season calls for it (Defiance is still too new, and it's a MMOFPS).  We just have to hope the next model is an evolution of the best of all worlds.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Cleffy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/09/04
Posts: 5364

4/22/13 12:31:33 AM#12

I think the free to play market has its merits.  It can be used very effectively to generate profits, and grow a large active community if done right.  However, I find that there is not enough business sense among publishers with free to play games.  Its like they all are universally sunk into the idea of being a bad publisher.  Right now the free to play idea is new, but gaming is not a drug.  There is no addiction linked to it so upholding such a stupid model won't last and we will see a flood of these publishers going out of business wondering why.  Eventually people wise up to the fact these games are not worth it and simply stop paying stupid prices for a cheap gain.

The main problem with free to play is designing the game to be pay to win.  They design mobs so the player must invest in stat padding items.  They lower drops so the player must purchase equipment.  They design impossible scenarios so players must use pay only resurrection methods.  Now when you get down to it, they charge something like 25 cents to 20 dollars to the player to achieve one thing in an instance that is necessary to enjoying the game.  That enjoyment is limited to an instance which gives the game little enjoyment value.  Think about it, pay $1 get an instant sense of enjoyment and thats it.  As an entertainment factor its a very bad bargain.

I think the solution to free to play is to really think about the audience, and appropriate levels of spending.  A game that relies on 4 or 5 people spending $500 a month is going to tank in less than 6 months.  They basically designed their game for 4 or 5 people to enjoy instead of letting everyone enjoy the game.  If a player is planning to spend $10, why bother when if they spend it they are still treated the same as those who don't spend any money at all.  Those who spend alot also realize they achieved everything and move on reducing the revenue in a short period of time.

Realistically, it should be expected most players will spend $5 to $20 on a game they enjoy.  The ones who really wish to spend should not be over $50.  There are better ways to getting players to pay that $5 to $20 monthly than the current system.

I like restricting access to play methods in the game unless the player pays a subscription fee.  For instance, you can have a basic membership for $5 a month that allows a player to access to global chat channel, and have access to all the quests and new areas when they are released.  Its a very reasonable charge for the player to enjoy 100% of the combat gameplay of the game.  You can charge an additional $3 for the player to access the PVP content of the game.  You can charge an addition $2 a month so the player can use trade skills.  Or you can offer it as a seperate subscription and delink the trade skills from the combat systems.  If they don't pay then the player still has limited access to loiter in towns making the game seem populated, monster/loot grind in most areas of the game, and have access to a handful of quests.

I also like limiting the cash shop to time savers and cosmetic stuff.  This is not pay to win stuff, but things to progress through the game faster.  Things like teleporters, and exp increase items.  Then there are costumes.  I think its reasonable to charge $10 for a costume if its permanent and have no benefits for the player to use.

  jalexbrown

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/19/13
Posts: 122

4/22/13 12:43:15 AM#13
Originally posted by michniewicz
Im sick of it.  The game is made purposly unfun or slow so you're lured into paying real money.  What happened to making a FUN game and letting that drive all the sales of boxes?  Why do I gotta play a gimped game and then pay to make it bearable?  None of these games design choices would stand up if they were regular buy the box game.  For example planet side 2,  I played it for a few days and started collecting Certs which is like the in game currency used to unlock weapons and what not,  but then I look at the cost of an unlock is and I have to play this game a week to all day everday to unlock 1 weapon.  What the hell is that?   Its cash shop crap.  Would far cry 3 been fun if you couldnt get a weapon until you farmed the game for a week?  Just little things like that, that ruine the games fun , all in the name of making more money that just has me discouraged with these pathetic games.  Im not spending a dime on them, if i had money to blow id buy a real game, I dont ever want to touch a game with a cash shop or anythign close to it , AGAIN.   That includes Guild Wars 2.

You don't have to play a gimped game and pay to make it bearable.  If you don't like cash shops, there's nothing in the world stopping you from picking whatever subscription game you like and having a good time to your heart's content.  You act like someone is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play nothing but free to play MMOs, and if that's the case you should be upset at the person with the gun and not the free to play MMOs.

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3663

RIP City of Heroes!

4/22/13 12:47:47 AM#14
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I happen to agree that cash shops have killed my enjoyment. Nothing breaks my immersion like paying as I go, having my credit card at hand along with my computer as I journey in games.

Unfortunately, cash shops are here to stay. There are enough people who care not about them and some who pay enough to keep the games afloat that they will not be gone in a long, long while, if ever. With F2P games, some even consider it a mini-game to get as far as they can for free.

I would much rather pay once a month and then play without worrying about paying as I go. That way, my real world and the game world stay separated.

 How do you feel that you are paying for the welfare players?  Since you are footing the bill don't you believe you should be getting a lot more for spending your money than the welfare players?

  jalexbrown

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/19/13
Posts: 122

4/22/13 12:52:38 AM#15
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I happen to agree that cash shops have killed my enjoyment. Nothing breaks my immersion like paying as I go, having my credit card at hand along with my computer as I journey in games.

Unfortunately, cash shops are here to stay. There are enough people who care not about them and some who pay enough to keep the games afloat that they will not be gone in a long, long while, if ever. With F2P games, some even consider it a mini-game to get as far as they can for free.

I would much rather pay once a month and then play without worrying about paying as I go. That way, my real world and the game world stay separated.

 How do you feel that you are paying for the welfare players?  Since you are footing the bill don't you believe you should be getting a lot more for spending your money than the welfare players?

These "welfare players" are actually doing the game a great service by giving the paying players other people with whom to interact.  None of these games would have enough players to be enjoyable if you removed all the free players.

  Fendel84M

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2342

I actually still like MMORPGs

4/22/13 4:58:15 AM#16
Well the good ones aren't "unfun" or "slowed down" forcing you to use the cash shop. And yes this include Guild Wars 2. I won't touch the games that blatently require a cash shop purchase for normal progression.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

4/22/13 5:03:53 AM#17

Grinding the best spots and optimizing your build to accelerate your progress in a game is bit like getting married because dating just isn't fun any more. Same goes from grouping, too.

 

  michniewicz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 6

 
OP  4/22/13 6:03:57 AM#18
Originally posted by maplestone

Using a cash shop to accelerate your progress in a game is bit like getting married because dating just isn't fun any more.

No, its like paying off the referee to give you points because you dont wanna/ cant score yourself.  Its cheating basically.  And before cash shops it was underground , now its out in the open. I dont how anyone thinks that allowing cheating into a game is good for it, its like sports.  Would you join a league that let other players  pay to get ahead in the competition?  It ruines the competition and makes the game you're playing a joke.  Some will argue, well  we need to let cheaters cheat, they're paying for new equipment, the referees salary,.  BS, no real sport or competition type game allows for cheating with those stupid excuses.

  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1679

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

4/22/13 6:05:29 AM#19
not cash shops destroyed mmos. the casual gamer did when he flooded the mmo market.

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

4/22/13 6:31:47 AM#20
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Grinding the best spots and optimizing your build to accelerate your progress in a game is bit like getting married because dating just isn't fun any more. Same goes from grouping, too.

But what you're describing gameplay choices, not the outright avoidance of gameplay.

For a pure example, stripped of the rest of the rest of an MMO's trappings, look at Diablo3 auction house.  The entire game is a gear-difficulty treadmill.  You get better gear to try harder iterations of the game to get better gear .... with the option to spend real money instead of adventuring to get gear.  But since the only thing better gear does is allow you to race a little further along the neverending treadmill, it accomplishes nothing else.  If you didn't enjoy playing the game on the difficulty you were on, you probably aren't going to enjoy it on the next difficulty you jump to with your new gear.

Now all leveling games have this sort of treadmill aspect to them and we could probably go off into a tangent about Skinner Boxes and the general mental health of these games.  The question is whether you want to pay a fixed rate to experience this or whether you want your wallet directly attached to the Skinner Box lever.

The fact that people don't realize their logical fallacy when they open their wallet is what the cash shop game exploits (and I do mean "exploits" in all its negative connotation because for some people, it will exploit them as hard and brutally as a gambling addict gets used in a casino).  If you're a publisher then sure, yeah, if it works, don't fix it and just accept the money people are throwing at you.  If you're a consumer who feels they are getting their money's worth out it, I'll gently question your judgement, but in the end it's your choice not mine.  Me, I like to dream of better worlds.  I'm not a free-market fundementalist, I don't believe that just because people spend  money on junk food that it implies that junk food is what is best for them.  And similiarly, I don't believe that cash shops are moving the gaming hobby in a healthy direction, even for the players who are currently arguing strongly for it.

I've been around these boards long enough to know you're a smart person, so I'm confident you can see my reasoning (give or take my ability to explain it).  If you still reject it, then ok fine, I'll back off.  I'm sure we'll have another go-round of this in the next thread on the topic :)

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