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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

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329 posts found
  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/19/13 12:00:14 AM#121

OP hits on so many points.

 

Earlier games were limited alot by early server technology. Today, those Developer's not using open world, (which are essentially alive w/us to sandbox in)...  are just business ventures for cash.

 

If you charge a monthly subscription, it is because you've built a living, breathing world & you need to storyboard and maintain that.

 

 

Basically, If it is not open world, then it's arcade...  & therefore just entertainment. Being such...  nothing matters. It doesn't matter if those games have micro-tnx, or auction houses, or instancing, or anything arcadish. They are for your fun and do not promis a stable future for your character to thrive in 4 years from now.

 

As these F2P arcade games are for NOW & for trending with no comitment on one's part. Thus throw away.. thus no need for sustaining itself for a projected future. People will just move on to newer. These are quick cycle mmos, not MMORPG's.

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  WW4BW

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 492

4/19/13 12:24:54 AM#122
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by WW4BW

But you have no basis for saying that.

 

If we don't have basis for stating something excessively obvious like, "People don't want to buy a game and then be forced to stare at a spellbook for 10 minutes of non-gameplay," what the hell can we say?

 

Of ocuse there is a basis of saying that. EQ got rid of the "staring at spell book for 10 min" .. didn't it? You think they did that randomly? You don't think people complained? I complained.

And if you believe there is a market for players to "stare at spell book for 10 min" as gameplay, feel free to invest your money and/or your career into it. I highly doubt even you (WW4BW) would do that.

What I was getting at was that I certainly never had to stare at my spell book for 10 minutes.

And that I never had more than 2 groups ahead of mine for anything and that was rare.

I could be wrong about the 10 minutes. It was a long time ago and I was probably too busy chatting  to notice it if it was 10 minutes. I've tried looking it up, but I couldnt find any info on it other than "a while".

I far more vividly remember how long it took me to figure out the layout of Kelethin Or how happy I was when I got some "magic" boots so I could atleast kick a will'o'wisp.

Anyways, I like it when thing arent just handed to me. 

  WW4BW

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 492

4/19/13 12:36:18 AM#123
Originally posted by Phelcher

OP hits on so many points.

 

Earlier games were limited alot by early server technology. Today, those Developer's not using open world, (which are essentially alive w/us to sandbox in)...  are just business ventures for cash.

 

If you charge a monthly subscription, it is because you've built a living, breathing world & you need to storyboard and maintain that.

 

 

Basically, If it is not open world, then it's arcade...  & therefore just entertainment. Being such...  nothing matters. It doesn't matter if those games have micro-tnx, or auction houses, or instancing, or anything arcadish. They are for your fun and do not promis a stable future for your character to thrive in 4 years from now.

 

As these F2P arcade games are for NOW & for trending with no comitment on one's part. Thus throw away.. thus no need for sustaining itself for a projected future. People will just move on to newer. These are quick cycle mmos, not MMORPG's.

 

 

 

 I agree.. But what were you thinking picking a name like that?

 

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/19/13 12:41:01 AM#124
Originally posted by WW4BW
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by WW4BW

But you have no basis for saying that.

 

If we don't have basis for stating something excessively obvious like, "People don't want to buy a game and then be forced to stare at a spellbook for 10 minutes of non-gameplay," what the hell can we say?

 

Of ocuse there is a basis of saying that. EQ got rid of the "staring at spell book for 10 min" .. didn't it? You think they did that randomly? You don't think people complained? I complained.

And if you believe there is a market for players to "stare at spell book for 10 min" as gameplay, feel free to invest your money and/or your career into it. I highly doubt even you (WW4BW) would do that.

What I was getting at was that I certainly never had to stare at my spell book for 10 minutes.

And that I never had more than 2 groups ahead of mine for anything and that was rare.

I could be wrong about the 10 minutes. It was a long time ago and I was probably too busy chatting  to notice it if it was 10 minutes. I've tried looking it up, but I couldnt find any info on it other than "a while".

I far more vividly remember how long it took me to figure out the layout of Kelethin Or how happy I was when I got some "magic" boots so I could atleast kick a will'o'wisp.

Anyways, I like it when thing arent just handed to me. 

 

 

Don't argue with him...   remember, he just admitted he was one of those who COMPLAINED..^     all-the-while, not realizing that he had a choice..   so ultra-derp!

 

 

So given this recent factoid...    let the mod recognize his troll...    

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  rommello

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 204

hallo ~_~

4/19/13 12:41:21 AM#125
ther not making games thats wher your wrong...ther making cash scams most of them

hallo ~_~

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/19/13 12:49:33 AM#126
Originally posted by rommello
ther not making games thats wher your wrong...ther making cash scams most of them

 

 

LOL^

 

 

Drum roll please.....

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/19/13 12:53:39 AM#127
Originally posted by Phelcher

OP hits on so many points.

Earlier games were limited alot by early server technology. Today, those Developer's not using open world, (which are essentially alive w/us to sandbox in)...  are just business ventures for cash.

If you charge a monthly subscription, it is because you've built a living, breathing world & you need to storyboard and maintain that.

Basically, If it is not open world, then it's arcade...  & therefore just entertainment. Being such...  nothing matters. It doesn't matter if those games have micro-tnx, or auction houses, or instancing, or anything arcadish. They are for your fun and do not promis a stable future for your character to thrive in 4 years from now.

As these F2P arcade games are for NOW & for trending with no comitment on one's part. Thus throw away.. thus no need for sustaining itself for a projected future. People will just move on to newer. These are quick cycle mmos, not MMORPG's.

What are you even saying here?

1. Early games were limited by technologies early on.  Right.  They were.  And...?

2. There's no significant difference between devs who do or don't use open world.  They're both business ventures for profit.  They're also overwhelmingly game ventures for fun!

3. Subscriptions actually apply much better to games-as-a-service than other types of games.  Empty player-driven worlds aren't a service.  (That's sort of the point!)

Or did I catch your tone wrong with that one?  Because you said living, breathing world, and that actually applies a lot more to the types of games getting a constant influx of new content (games) than the ones designed as sandboxes (worlds.)  And if this was your intent than my earlier statement (#3) is simply repeating what you said.

4. As for promising a stable future for your character 4 years from now, that's largely determined by game quality (is it fun?)

It's also determined by the competition in the space.  It's a bit like vacation destinations. If you live in California like Blizzard there are countless competing vacation destinations within a short drive.  You'll visit many.  If you live in Iceland like CCP there's not nearly as many destinations within a short drive, so you'll end up visiting the same one over and over.

Similarly, if hundreds of themepark games come out, each having an exciting unique trait, you'd be foolish not to try out plenty of them.

I mean you don't just pick one musician to listen to for the next 10 years, right?  (...right?)

  sketocafe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 651

4/19/13 1:40:39 AM#128

You're spot on, OP, as far as I am concerned.

I do have one minor quibble, a part of your post where I believe you to be factually incorrect.  After shipping a game, SOE developers do not quit, at least not of their own accord. The game ships, SOE dials back the resources they devote to the game from 10 to 1, the employees get canned and the quality of content produced after launch takes, as you said, a nose dive. 

CCP never did that. CCP has steadily grown their EvE team since launch. They pretty much had to, it was their only product and they weren't in it for the  quick cash grab, so they funneled the game's earnings into their team and back into the game. 

This is why CCP has been able to mantain EvE at the level they have. It's because they chose to. SOE has never made that choice and the results have been very clear to see, as you documented in your post.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7493

4/19/13 1:47:35 AM#129
Come join us in Wushu friend.
  Magiknight

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 746

4/19/13 1:54:37 AM#130
OP is right.
  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5349

4/19/13 3:41:31 AM#131
Having a world does help with the grind and end game. Having ribbon worlds where an open space is a cause for wonder does not. At the very least a virtual world distracts players, at best the world has been filled with other things to do.
  MentalAnarchy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/13
Posts: 14

Fight the Cerebral System

4/19/13 3:50:58 AM#132
Originally posted by FromHell

Fear not... 

 

EQ Next

Star Citizen

World of Darkness (also by CCP)

Elite Dangerous

Archeage

 

those five "virtual world "titles alone will probably keep many people busy for at least a decade

 

This.  I'm excited for some solid info on EQN and WoD.  Also interested in how Star Citizen shapes up.  I played all of his older games and had a blast.  Heck, I played TradeWars 2000, the BBS Door game an insane amount - That particular game wasn't his, but it had many of the same mechanics .. It was about as robust as you could get on a DOOR game.(This was back before the internet for those that don't know what I'm talking about).

 

Anyway, you are not alone OP.   Every 2 or 3 months someone posts a thread about this.  There are many that feel the same way. 

There are also many people that just want the game.  Just want to experience the rides when and where they want to.  I think they lean more toward Themepark.  It seems logical anyway.  Of course there are thousands of in-betweens that have to be considered.  Anyways..

 

Here's hoping that at least one of the up and coming MMORPGs are huge, deep, and full of life.

42.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/20/13 10:18:23 AM#133
 
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Phelcher

OP hits on so many points.

Earlier games were limited alot by early server technology. Today, those Developer's not using open world, (which are essentially alive w/us to sandbox in)...  are just business ventures for cash.

If you charge a monthly subscription, it is because you've built a living, breathing world & you need to storyboard and maintain that.

Basically, If it is not open world, then it's arcade...  & therefore just entertainment. Being such...  nothing matters. It doesn't matter if those games have micro-tnx, or auction houses, or instancing, or anything arcadish. They are for your fun and do not promis a stable future for your character to thrive in 4 years from now.

As these F2P arcade games are for NOW & for trending with no comitment on one's part. Thus throw away.. thus no need for sustaining itself for a projected future. People will just move on to newer. These are quick cycle mmos, not MMORPG's.

What are you even saying here?

1. Early games were limited by technologies early on.  Right.  They were.  And...?

2. There's no significant difference between devs who do or don't use open world.  They're both business ventures for profit.  They're also overwhelmingly game ventures for fun!

3. Subscriptions actually apply much better to games-as-a-service than other types of games.  Empty player-driven worlds aren't a service.  (That's sort of the point!)

Or did I catch your tone wrong with that one?  Because you said living, breathing world, and that actually applies a lot more to the types of games getting a constant influx of new content (games) than the ones designed as sandboxes (worlds.)  And if this was your intent than my earlier statement (#3) is simply repeating what you said.

4. As for promising a stable future for your character 4 years from now, that's largely determined by game quality (is it fun?)

It's also determined by the competition in the space.  It's a bit like vacation destinations. If you live in California like Blizzard there are countless competing vacation destinations within a short drive.  You'll visit many.  If you live in Iceland like CCP there's not nearly as many destinations within a short drive, so you'll end up visiting the same one over and over.

Similarly, if hundreds of themepark games come out, each having an exciting unique trait, you'd be foolish not to try out plenty of them.

I mean you don't just pick one musician to listen to for the next 10 years, right?  (...right?)

 

 

You know very little behind the working and business dealing of what makes a MMORPG run.

 

BEFORE ANY MMORPG is built, the developers have to decide on what type of game it is going to be, because the servers that run their gameworld will have to house their world. That decision is not reversable and 2 year into the project, to build new net-code, server structure, etc... would just cost too much and the game would implode...

(It happened with WISH & Shadowbane^)

So, the cost and type of server structure DICTATES the type of game you have. Dictates everything about how the game will be developed and how it will unfold.

 

 

Cheap servers.... cheap game.    Again, open world games requires server structures that can be 10x higher cost than instanced games.

 

 

 

Today, I can build a cheap instanced game similiar to Allods in a few years and make a quick few million... while not caring one biit about any of my customers, because any WoW'tard will buy a few trinkets in my game. I don't even care if thew game only last 9 months... so long as I get 2~4% of the 10 million wow refugees to try it...     I AM PAID..!

So server structure determines how cheap the game will be, what features can be implamented and over-all zeal of the development krew driving the game.

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  MyownGod

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 213

4/20/13 10:33:00 AM#134

Virtual world are more like sandboxy. Mmo games are runs by story.

People who can't find Virtual world (sandboxes) usually tend to have no clue what to do, whilst in an mmo-rpg, theres quests telling you to do this and that. Pretty much to play a Virtual world you need imagination.

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1824

4/20/13 10:36:27 AM#135

Developers aren't making games instead of worlds. They are making arena's instead of worlds.

Pretty much every MMO out right now, including the older ones have been converted to end game arena's. Some PvE some PvP but they are an arena where you face off in a match with a defined foe. In an effort to solve an old problem, node farming, they created a new problem. Arena farming. In an effort to make them "hard" they did the only thing they could. Force grouping.

 

We the playerbase piss and moan about grind, then condense an entire MMO in to 2-6 'end game instances (arena's)

 

For Devs. Hide all "good loot" in the "Loot" table. Not based on uber kills but based on the entire playing cycle. If someone wants to farm junk for 2 weeks, diminish returns on high end loot. It prevents monopolies on content. It creates balance in progression. Farm elite content for 2 weeks, lower diminishing returns but diminishing just the same. It's farming and farming is farming. If you want to force something on to gamers, force content, not mechanics. You owe it to yourself. You spent a shit load of time creating that content. None of it should be "junk" content.

  steelheartx

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/08/06
Posts: 408

4/20/13 10:39:24 AM#136

I remember stepping into the original EQ and thinking that it was like the old PnP DnD come alive!  This was my first MMO experiene and it was amazing to have entered such a vibrant world filled with thousands of other players at the same time!

 

I agree that loot was something special back then, having camped certain mobs for hours (sometimes days) just to finally get that 1 rare drop.  Even though things like that seem tedious today, it really made for a unique community.

 

What is miss most though is the need to have another players help in a game these days.  Most current MMOs leave me with the impression of playing a single player game along side thousands of other players doing the same thing.  Unfortunately there's little or no need for player to player communication these days in MMOs :(

Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/20/13 10:47:42 AM#137
Originally posted by ucidaitaci

Virtual world are more like sandboxy. Mmo games are runs by story.

People who can't find Virtual world (sandboxes) usually tend to have no clue what to do, whilst in an mmo-rpg, theres quests telling you to do this and that. Pretty much to play a Virtual world you need imagination.

 

 

You are talking about the mindset of players^, & how most people get lost, or are overwhelmed by their openess... to do anything and go anywhere..   where they are confronted with using their imagination.

That is a slightly different distinction of virtual world, which doesn't nec mean a game world, the correct term is Open World...!

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Morcotulcon

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/10
Posts: 261

4/20/13 11:23:14 AM#138

I agree with the OP, but also with some of the things other people say in this thread.

I'm not very active in this site as I used to, but reading this post I felt the need to give my opinion.

 

Although I totally agree with the problem of giving too many rewards to players, and although I also agree that MMOs today are more of a Game and less then a Virtual World, I think MMORPGs were stale for so long that all the changes right now are the main reasons why players feel so "lost" in the genre. They don't know what MMORPG's stand for anymore, at least in terms of what to expect in their gameplay experience.

The genre is growing steadily with much more players than it had before, in many more games than before, but along with this there are more and more games looking to give motivational and rewarding experiences, because those are the ones that attract the new players each day - yes, I said "day", because games are now on a competitive level where each day might represent the gain and loss of players to the direct competition, and if only 1 day can be a problem to the game itself with a downtime service, a week or a month might be the end of the success of many goals they devs had in mind by giving the wrong updates.

The problem with this is, with so many motivational experiences and rewards, people start getting tired of them and don't know what to do with them all. Many of those rewards become things with no value and the real valuable ones are only possible if you are "a true hardcore" (aka have no life or spend real money) or if you have A LOT OF LUCK.

They also try to give many experiences in terms of different gameplay, but then they create even more rewards and motivational experiences that in less then a month will become "meh" in the middle of so many things to do and get.

In the end, there are so many MMOs creating so many features while looking for the "special one" that motivates all their player base, that all of them end up having the same things over and over again with different skins and with an excessive amount of rewards with no value at all.

 

The Virtual Worlds the OP talked about is something many MMORPGs are trying to do right now, but it just gets past players when they see the giant list of things to do and get. With so many features, missions, rewards, etc., the players forget all about the Virtual World and start thinking about the Game - to have fun and become good player - and after a while they forget about the Game and start to become focused in best rewards and in beeing the best. When that happens, the MMO is not fun anymore, it's just a "job" (or a filler) untill the next MMO comes again.

And then, the cycle repeats itself.

 

But It seems we are getting somewhere. To me, it seems each new game is trying to get both of those concepts, a Virtual World and a Game, and with this we might see a final change in the genre in terms of definition.

I don't know if the gerne should be separated in 2 or 3 genres, but to me it seems games will get to a place where the games are finally labelled in the correct genre again, like they were before as MMORPGs.

  jesteralways

Elite Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 682

4/20/13 11:38:41 AM#139
Originally posted by rommello
ther not making games thats wher your wrong...ther making cash scams most of them

that is the most accurate comment in the entire thread.

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3302

Poacher killer.

4/20/13 12:15:58 PM#140
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by rommello
ther not making games thats wher your wrong...ther making cash scams most of them

that is the most accurate comment in the entire thread.

This is what it all boils down to.

The passion and artistry is almost completely absent from video game development, and man does it ever show.

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

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