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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Camelot Unchained: built on a foundation of dishonesty

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106 posts found
  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

4/18/13 6:51:09 PM#81
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by binskki

I don't think anyone was confused about the fact that the purpose of a Kickstarter is to raise money.

 

People sure are confused about the reason behind it for this particular project though.

Funny....I have seen something over 33k comments regarding this Kickstarter on the KS backers thread and none of the people posting there seem confused.  Not one.  They are all quite clear on the fact that they have donated their money and it is not an investment of any kind.

My 11-year-old isn't even confused by this.

Do you have a friend that was confused or something?  Because I would be happy to try to explain it. :)

  Schoeneck93

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 71

4/18/13 8:10:26 PM#82

OP is 100% right.

 

I love the oblivious masses that disagree. 

 

Good Lord what has the world come to. No wonder no game ever makes it. We're stupid. Unreasonable. Brutes. It's disgusting. At least be willing to see gain for what it is people.

 

He's not saying this makes Jacobs a bad guy, HE TYPED WORD FOR WORD THAT IT IS NOT A SCAM, SO STOP WITH THAT, HOLY SHIT, what he's saying is that Jacobs made a smart business move and he's just pointing it out, he's just calling him out like it is. Sharpen the fuck up. 

At the end, it even says its a safe kickstarter. I mean come on. Are you guys not reading his post or something? I'm trying not to have a brain aneurysm here. Maybe I already did. Hm. 

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

4/18/13 8:20:51 PM#83
Originally posted by strangiato2112

... And there is no gaurantee at all he wont pull a Mythic and sell out to a big publisher anyway.  I highly doubt he plans too, but game designers tend to get bored and want to move on so 2-3 years post release its awfully tempting to get a nice paycheck and move on to your next project.

...

I don't think it's getting 'bored'.

Lately (last few years) I think it's that they 'choose to persue other opportunities' because the design is done... and it becomes obvious that it is fundimentally "broken"... and they either have no idea how to fix it... or fixing it would require a fundimental redsign and rebuild from the ground up.

(or if you work for Cryptic... it works exactly as designed... who cares what players say once you have their money?  Simply re-skin the thing and offer lifetime subs to a new generation of suckers!... anyway... getting off topic...)

Happened to quite a few game designers recently.

That guy from Pirates of the Burning Sea, didn't some of the Bioware guys go the same way? and that guy from WAR too?

The only game designer I can think of that has actually left and moved on leaving success in his wake is J. Todd Coleman from KingsIsle.  There may be more - I hope someone can name a few others?

But the rest of them have created games with major design flaws.  Games that simply didn't do what they were supposed to do.

Many of them moved on claiming that they have "learnt their lessons" - but honestly I doubt it.

Game design is an art as much as a science.  Have you ever met someone who could walk into a room and straight away judge the mood of everyone in it?  Walk up to someone who is outwardly smiling and say "Are you okay?" and have that person collape in tears pouring their heart out?  

Because game design is a bit like that.  It's understanding the people you are marketing to, how people act, what motivates them, what they value, seeing beyond the first layer and how many different things will work together to produce an end result that works.

Most game designers don't move on because they are bored IMHO - they move on because they failed but their spreadsheets don't offer a solution.

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  4/18/13 8:39:51 PM#84
Originally posted by Schoeneck93

OP is 100% right.

 

I love the oblivious masses that disagree. 

 

Good Lord what has the world come to. No wonder no game ever makes it. We're stupid. Unreasonable. Brutes. It's disgusting. At least be willing to see gain for what it is people.

 

He's not saying this makes Jacobs a bad guy, HE TYPED WORD FOR WORD THAT IT IS NOT A SCAM, SO STOP WITH THAT, HOLY SHIT, what he's saying is that Jacobs made a smart business move and he's just pointing it out, he's just calling him out like it is. Sharpen the fuck up. 

At the end, it even says its a safe kickstarter. I mean come on. Are you guys not reading his post or something? I'm trying not to have a brain aneurysm here. Maybe I already did. Hm. 

eh, its probably the title that is getting them.  As someone pointed out I was too harsh in the title choice.  Its not the whole foundation, but its certainly a significant portion of it.

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

4/18/13 8:53:18 PM#85
Originally posted by strangiato2112
 

...

I do, however, feel that Jacobs saying that the reason for the kickstarter is to avoid being handcuffed by a publisher is bullshit, because there are other ways to do things as evidenced by the other low budget/non big publsiher games out there.  Its because it provides a bigger financial benefit to him and CSE

...

Hmmm... "financial benefit"...

Well, you could call it that I suppose.

But really, IMHO you are avoiding the real benefit, which is cheap advertising.

I think that cf-publishing are driving this.  Kickstarter is popular right now.  It's a buzzword.  It's the in thing.

It's a brand name that has achieved world wide recognition (on the internet).  So, it's bloody good marketing.

 

I wonder what an advert on MMORPG.com costs?

Yet CSE has a huge add for Camelot Unchained up on Kickstarter for a whole month and it costs them (assuming it funds):

5% x $2,000,000 = $100,000.

Not to mention all the banner sigs floating around too.

I think for some of those using Kickstarter lately - Kickstarter is actually irrelevent.  They don't need it but it is a way to generate 'crowd buzz' (viral marketing in old speak).

"WOW... our project was 500% overfunded!"

"WOW... we funded in less than 24 hours!"

"WOW... we have 20,000 backers!"

But... and here's the kicker... what if it doesn't fund?

THAT would be a serious problem... because if you had intended to proceed with the project anyway (and Kickstarter was just an advertising side show) but it doesn't fund... then your cheap advertising has actually hurt you.  It's worse than that actually... it has potentially destroyed you.

You run an advert that no-one reads - you can say it was "badly placed", "didn't reach the correct demographic", or "lacked penetration"... but if a Kickstarter fails... it's because not enough people are interested.

Ooops.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  SBE1

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/06
Posts: 340

4/18/13 9:04:18 PM#86

I have to agree with some aspect and disagree with others. 

First, is kickstarter cheap money?  To some extent, yes.  However, rather than earn a financial return on their investment, others are willing to earn a "fun" return on their investment.  The fun is that a game is made that they will enjoy.  In the world of economics, this is called "utility" and describes why people do what they do. Obviously, money has utility, but so do other things.  Hence, if it was only money, you couldn't ever figure out why people volunteer their time or donate to charities or purchase the $10,000 tier of the Kickstarter. 

Furthermore, many teirs of Kickstarter provide very good returns financially as well.  The $250 tier with the game plus life-time sub covers the cost of the game and about 1 year of a $15/month sub.  

If you took this to a traditional publisher, they would require that the game have a PvE element, because that's what other games have and that's what is successful in World of Warcraft.   Is there any doubt that over the last 5-10 years, we have seen enough WoW clones to know that they don't work, and yet we ponder why so many keep getting published?

Secondly, publishers have deals with various game distributors that they have to abide by.  So, let's say a publisher has an agreement with Gamestop.  Gamestop isn't interested in taking shelf space for a game that is truly a niche game.  They want more broad appeal in order to justify the shelf space. Hence, the publisher is going to pressure the game developer to do things that wont make it a niche game, so that they can get Gamestop to buy the game and put it on the shelf. 

The only way around it is to fund it yourself or with a few small investors, which brings you games like Darkfall, which took like 8 or 9 years to develop that by the time it was released it looked like it was 9 years old.  Or Shadowbane, which was plagued with technical problems and hacking. Or the game Dark & Light, which was a scam and the company that made it stole the game engine without paying for it.  Apparently, funding it yourself has massive problems as well. 

Which of course brings us to kickstarter.  Certainly one could complain about the process, but nobody is forcing anyone to buy it. 

I have proudly purchased the $250 Warrior Forever tier and really want the game to come about.  I have always been one of Marc Jacobs harshest critics for stupid stuff like ToA and some of the dumbest end-game mechanics ever conceived in Warhammer; and who could forget his dumbest claim that Warhammer would have advanced class-balancing tools when all it took was playing a Bright Wizard for a few minutes could have figured out it was unbalanced.    Maybe going throug those terrible decisions has allowed him to finally see the error of his ways and is bringing about a communication with seasoned PvP players like myself who certainly don't mind telling him when he's jumped the shark.  There has never been a harsher critic than myself, and there has never been someone so eager that he gets this game made.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/18/13 9:11:13 PM#87

@OP

I agree with a lot of what you said. I also agree that this project will fund and a game will be created. The line I most agree with is this one "And there is no gaurantee at all he wont pull a Mythic and sell out to a big publisher anyway." I think that is a very good possibility. 

As I pointed out in the other thread where he promised to release the code if the game ever shuts down there are no promises that he wont sell. All of these people funding a game to escape those big evil publishers could very likely be paying those same big evil publishers in the future. It happens all of the time to small developers.

 

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

4/18/13 9:26:27 PM#88

Well, it looks like Kickstarter is getting its own vocal "anti" crowd. I'm sure that's some sign of "making it".

People aren't pledging for a political ideal. They're pledging because they really like what MJ is trying to make and they want to do their part to make it happen, so that they may get to play it.

MJs philosophies and ideals about the KS model and what it may or may not do for people trying to break free of Publishers is completely separate from the game he's trying to make.

Everyone's aware of what KS is. Everyone's aware of the risks. Everyone's aware that the game could fail miserably and be terrible. They're willing to take that chance because they really like what MJ's put on the table.

I can't quite figure out what the motivation is behind the OP - to plant seeds of doubt or cynicism in people? Trying to "open people's eyes" to some great esoteric truth they feel only themself and a "chosen few" possess? Maybe it's just paranoia? A need to stir up drama? Trying to set some new conspiracy theory in motion? What's the point of even starting the topic?

You'd think simply choosing not to back the project would be enough for anyone who doesn't believe in it, or doubts the motivations behind it. I guess some people can't simply dissent by not participating. It has to have more meaning than that. It's not just a personal choice to not back something. No. It must be a rallying cry!! And so they make a post like the OP's.

It seems to me like the OP just has some issue with MJ and is looking to undermine his efforts, without being "too overt" about it - and unsuccessfully at that. Because I see nothing in their post that woudl dissuade me from wanting to help the man make a game that I'd like to play, whatever his personal philosophies are.

 

 

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2701

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

4/18/13 9:38:39 PM#89
Originally posted by Schoeneck93

OP is 100% right.

 

I love the oblivious masses that disagree. 

 

Good Lord what has the world come to. No wonder no game ever makes it. We're stupid. Unreasonable. Brutes. It's disgusting. At least be willing to see gain for what it is people.

 

He's not saying this makes Jacobs a bad guy, HE TYPED WORD FOR WORD THAT IT IS NOT A SCAM, SO STOP WITH THAT, HOLY SHIT, what he's saying is that Jacobs made a smart business move and he's just pointing it out, he's just calling him out like it is. Sharpen the fuck up. 

At the end, it even says its a safe kickstarter. I mean come on. Are you guys not reading his post or something? I'm trying not to have a brain aneurysm here. Maybe I already did. Hm. 

Finally someone else who actually read the OP post. But if these guys want to drink the kool-aid thinking that MJ is one of them (who just happens to be a multimillionare) fighting the good fight from the goodness of his heart. Or to thumb his nose at the creativity crushing publishers (who he milked for his millions in the first place). Like some mmo philanthropist, so be it. Whether or not CU backers think CU Kickstarter is an investment or not makes no difference. It sure is one to MJ, at least it's one he won't put his own money into unless it looks like one that will payoff.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  GrayGhost79

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4889

4/18/13 9:42:06 PM#90

I agree that CU is built on a foundation of dishonesty, but not for the same reasons the OP does. 

Mark Jacobs has held back on specifics and given just enough information for fans to let their imaginations run wild. If you took each devote CU fan and sat them down and asked them what will CU be like each would give you an entirely different answer. 

Hell, some that don't have the time or patience to comb through all the interviews and foundation principals are expecting a DAOC 2.0 still. 

Some think its going to be an old school tab targeting game and others have said that its going to have action combat lol... 

Fans have a hard time even getting on the same page as to what PvE is going to be like. 

In the end its dishonest because backers are backing their ideal game instead of Mark Jacobs game. So many are going to be let down if and when it launches its not even funny. 

 

If you don't believe me, comb through the CU threads and posts and look at how different the "vision" is for each player. 

  logonmas

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/04
Posts: 11

4/18/13 10:17:44 PM#91
I disagree, they've been pretty open and honest about it all.  They mentioned it is going to be an RvR focused game. They said no progression from PvE...  no leveling or gear drops from killing NPCs and there will be minimal NPCs.  He has also said multiple times he's not making a sequel to DAoC which is why he decided to go w/ the story about post-apocolypse... so the classes/races/landscape would be different but he's always been a fan of the old norse/irish(hibernian)/arthurian legends.  People loosely tout it as DAoC2 but thats because they miss the RvR elements of DAoC and want to see that in a new game and not that they're misinformed. They've gone to great lengths to make sure people know it's not DAoC2...if anyone still believes it then they haven't been reading the information about the game.

God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.

  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

4/18/13 10:21:35 PM#92

A game named Camelot but not it's sequel.  Is this game going to be Paris, Texas?

Anyways, a great reason to use KS instead of asking a publishing company is because you get the money and aren't required to do anything with it.  A publisher would have tons of contracts.  Breaching them would get you sued.  Not the case with kickstarter.

  Grimbor

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/13
Posts: 24

4/18/13 10:23:03 PM#93
Originally posted by GrayGhost79

I agree that CU is built on a foundation of dishonesty, but not for the same reasons the OP does. 

Mark Jacobs has held back on specifics and given just enough information for fans to let their imaginations run wild. If you took each devote CU fan and sat them down and asked them what will CU be like each would give you an entirely different answer. 

Hell, some that don't have the time or patience to comb through all the interviews and foundation principals are expecting a DAOC 2.0 still. 

Some think its going to be an old school tab targeting game and others have said that its going to have action combat lol... 

Fans have a hard time even getting on the same page as to what PvE is going to be like. 

In the end its dishonest because backers are backing their ideal game instead of Mark Jacobs game. So many are going to be let down if and when it launches its not even funny. 

 

If you don't believe me, comb through the CU threads and posts and look at how different the "vision" is for each player. 

CU is not built on a foundation of dishonesty, that is just riduculous.  It is being built upon a foundation of core principles.  You act like every single detail should already be decided and explained.  I disagree.  What you should know is how the developers are going to approach the game and what drives their decision making on designing key elements of the game.  That _has_ been given in an upfront manner.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3099

I am more than some of my parts

4/18/13 10:23:18 PM#94

If the fanbase pays enough money, that will keep them honest.  Once again I would like to mention an improved subscription rate. I think that even as much as $100 each month is acceptable. Thats barely more than a couple cups of coffee each day!  It's tried and true that the P2P model is the most honest model right, so why don't we prove it and let the cheaters and scammers go to the F2P titles!

 

I think that the players need to speak loud and clear on this. The fans are willing to pay much higher premiums for this niche title.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  GrayGhost79

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4889

4/18/13 10:30:26 PM#95
Originally posted by logonmas
I disagree, they've been pretty open and honest about it all.  They mentioned it is going to be an RvR focused game. They said no progression from PvE...  no leveling or gear drops from killing NPCs and there will be minimal NPCs.  He has also said multiple times he's not making a sequel to DAoC which is why he decided to go w/ the story about post-apocolypse... so the classes/races/landscape would be different but he's always been a fan of the old norse/irish(hibernian)/arthurian legends.  People loosely tout it as DAoC2 but thats because they miss the RvR elements of DAoC and want to see that in a new game and not that they're misinformed. They've gone to great lengths to make sure people know it's not DAoC2...if anyone still believes it then they haven't been reading the information about the game.

lol... I was waiting for the obligatory "It's their own fault for not doing enough research". 

If MJ wanted to make anything clear it would be presented up front and center on both his website and kickstarter. How many are going to spend hours combing through that info to get what little actual info is there? Fans have compiled a list that acts as a pretty decent Faq for the game but not many backers are going to see that list. 

 

Sorry, yes there is a lack of information. Yes, there is a lack of easy access to what little is actually out there. Yes, there "vision" differs widely because of these. 

 

It gets worse when take into account that each fan pushing the game is pushing their "vision" of the game lol. 

 

For MJ to go to great lengths to make sure anyone knows anything at all about the game he would need something along the lines of the unofficial faq players have made due to the amount of sifting one must do to get any information out of MJs updates, posts, and such right on the front page of his site and the kickstarter site. 

 

 

  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

4/18/13 10:31:25 PM#96
Originally posted by eyelolled

If the fanbase pays enough money, that will keep them honest.  Once again I would like to mention an improved subscription rate. I think that even as much as $100 each month is acceptable. Thats barely more than a couple cups of coffee each day!  It's tried and true that the P2P model is the most honest model right, so why don't we prove it and let the cheaters and scammers go to the F2P titles!

 

I think that the players need to speak loud and clear on this. The fans are willing to pay much higher premiums for this niche title.

You think that if Cu gets 800k the game is made?  Or that MJ will actually put 2mil in?  Or that he has 1mil from investors?  Are there any suupporting documents?  Is there a contract?

The answer to all of those questions is... maybe.

  logonmas

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/04
Posts: 11

4/18/13 10:32:34 PM#97
It is the case w/ Kickstarter, they're legally obligated to fulfill the tier promises or refund the money. IE They offer a reward that says you can get a custom house but they aren't able to make that house, they're required to give you and everyone who was promised that a refund. They're also required to deliver the game or have a refund of everyones money. There is legal action that can come as a result from that (which has happened). If the company goes under, then you're SOL though I suppose. They have had projects where the entire balance was refunded or some that donated to specific tiers that were then removed and had to be refunded.

God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/18/13 10:34:15 PM#98
Originally posted by eyelolled

If the fanbase pays enough money, that will keep them honest.  Once again I would like to mention an improved subscription rate. I think that even as much as $100 each month is acceptable. Thats barely more than a couple cups of coffee each day!  It's tried and true that the P2P model is the most honest model right, so why don't we prove it and let the cheaters and scammers go to the F2P titles!

 

I think that the players need to speak loud and clear on this. The fans are willing to pay much higher premiums for this niche title.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually believe this. You can not buy and sell honesty. People either are or they are not. If money was a factor than EA, SOE and all of the other "big evil corporations" would be the most honest people around.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3099

I am more than some of my parts

4/18/13 10:34:30 PM#99
Originally posted by Smorak
Originally posted by eyelolled

If the fanbase pays enough money, that will keep them honest.  Once again I would like to mention an improved subscription rate. I think that even as much as $100 each month is acceptable. Thats barely more than a couple cups of coffee each day!  It's tried and true that the P2P model is the most honest model right, so why don't we prove it and let the cheaters and scammers go to the F2P titles!

 

I think that the players need to speak loud and clear on this. The fans are willing to pay much higher premiums for this niche title.

You think that if Cu gets 800k the game is made?  Or that MJ will actually put 2mil in?  Or that he has 1mil from investors?  Are there any suupporting documents?  Is there a contract?

The answer to all of those questions is... maybe.

Maybe is good enough for me.  I wouldn't be against the loyal fanbase giving more if asked.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

4/18/13 10:36:24 PM#100
Originally posted by Smorak

...

Anyways, a great reason to use KS instead of asking a publishing company is because you get the money and aren't required to do anything with it.  A publisher would have tons of contracts.  Breaching them would get you sued.  Not the case with kickstarter.

No.  No and no.

You get the money for a project.  If you don't use the money for that project you could (potentially) be sued by the backers.

There are lots of issues there I admit (it would be very difficult for backers to sue successfully).

Also CSE is an LLC - so more issues there to do with collecting money and not using it for it's intended purpose.

 

And... you can hire a publisher for marketing and distribution without letting them run your project.  It has been done.  But in that case you pay them.

But, quite rightly, publishers expect that they have to front money to a project to make it work then they get a say.  That's simply sensible business.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

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