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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Camelot Unchained: built on a foundation of dishonesty

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106 posts found
  Ezzekhiel

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/13
Posts: 4

4/18/13 3:44:42 PM#41
Originally posted by strangiato2112

1.  You have no way of knowing it is the game you want until its released.  GW2 looked perfect to many on paper.  And it did end up being the game some of them wanted.  But others came away disappointed.  There is no way of knowing if this game will be what you want/expect.

2.  that wouldnt be made otherwise...bullshit.  If you believe kickstarter was this games only chance to be made I have a bridge to sell you in brooklyn Ill give you a good deal on

1. Did the community talk daily with ArenaNet during the developpment of the game? Or even before? Is CU being published by a bi publisher like NCSOFT? No, so yes, we know exactly what MJ plans or does.

2. KS certainly wasn't the only way to do this, but the only way to it without having a big investor interfering in the creation process.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  4/18/13 3:45:49 PM#42
Originally posted by Nihilist

Can you point to a single major publisher backed MMO created since WoW that has taken any sort of significant risk?

How do you define risk?

No game took a bigger risk than SWTOR financially.  Needing 500k+ subs to stay afloat is substantially riskier than shooting for 50k (and probably needing less).

GW2 went to a B2P model (on a costly game) and sold the game on removing progression.  is that not risky?

How about Defiance, a market that is uncertain to exist (will people play Defiance when they can play a traditional MMORPG or a game like Borderlands 2) and tieing it in to a TV show on a channel best known for Megashark vs Gigadinosaur vs. Humongopiranha type movies.

Major publishers typically dont often deal with small budget games so expecting a major publisher backed game to shoot for a niche audience is silly.

  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 559

4/18/13 3:46:52 PM#43
Originally posted by Dihoru

The OP is kinda right, I mean the game likely will have some outside investement other than KS but KS does allow MJ and his company to self-publish and if this game is as popular in its niche as EVE is... well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

 

Anyone that claims MJ is doing it solely for the gamers... well dumb question then: Why won't CU be a F2P game supported by discrete in-game ads and nothing else? Anarchy Online did that for a fair while with no issue and it had (back then) a similar pop to what MJ claims to expect CU to have.

 

Are you serious? Ads?

Yeah, gamers really want to see Ford ads on the side of their keeps in a fantasy MMO.

Aso, this is a niche game - advertisers do not pay big bucks to market to small numbers of people.

FTP? You mean P2W? That model is garbage for pvp oriented MMOs.

  Ezzekhiel

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/13
Posts: 4

4/18/13 3:47:50 PM#44
Originally posted by Dihoru

well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

Really hard not to lol at that sentence. Cause EA and NCSOFT are really known for being the philanthropists of the industry.

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 779

4/18/13 3:48:58 PM#45
Originally posted by Dihoru

The OP is kinda right, I mean the game likely will have some outside investement other than KS but KS does allow MJ and his company to self-publish and if this game is as popular in its niche as EVE is... well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

 

Anyone that claims MJ is doing it solely for the gamers... well dumb question then: Why won't CU be a F2P game supported by discrete in-game ads and nothing else? Anarchy Online did that for a fair while with no issue and it had (back then) a similar pop to what MJ claims to expect CU to have.

This question has been answered by MJ himself. He sees F2P resulting in a rapid turnover of casual players that won't stick around to support the game. F2P games are funded by a small percentage of the total population and he knows this game will be niche. That small percentage of a small player base won't be enough to keep the game running. He's not expecting more than a couple of hundred K players, at best.

Therefore the game will be subscription based.

  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 559

4/18/13 3:54:57 PM#46
How do you define risk?

No game took a bigger risk than SWTOR financially.  Needing 500k+ subs to stay afloat is substantially riskier than shooting for 50k (and probably needing less).

GW2 went to a B2P model (on a costly game) and sold the game on removing progression.  is that not risky?

How about Defiance, a market that is uncertain to exist (will people play Defiance when they can play a traditional MMORPG or a game like Borderlands 2) and tieing it in to a TV show on a channel best known for Megashark vs Gigadinosaur vs. Humongopiranha type movies.

Major publishers typically dont often deal with small budget games so expecting a major publisher backed game to shoot for a niche audience is silly.

All 3 of those games are rail-based PVE themeparks with bad 0 risk pvp. None of them took any risk in terms of gameplay mechanics.

Maybe the non-trinity classes in GW2 could qualify as a risky move, but in a lot of ways it dumbed down the game even more because every class is interchangable.

Obviously major publisers chasing the big money will not make niche games. That is my nobody will fund CU, and why your OP makes zero sense.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  4/18/13 3:55:47 PM#47
Originally posted by Ezzekhiel
Originally posted by strangiato2112

1.  You have no way of knowing it is the game you want until its released.  GW2 looked perfect to many on paper.  And it did end up being the game some of them wanted.  But others came away disappointed.  There is no way of knowing if this game will be what you want/expect.

2.  that wouldnt be made otherwise...bullshit.  If you believe kickstarter was this games only chance to be made I have a bridge to sell you in brooklyn Ill give you a good deal on

1. Did the community talk daily with ArenaNet during the developpment of the game? Or even before? Is CU being published by a bi publisher like NCSOFT? No, so yes, we know exactly what MJ plans or does.

2. KS certainly wasn't the only way to do this, but the only way to it without having a big investor interfering in the creation process.

1.  He is in fundraising mode.  I suspect he will still communicate afterwards, but nobody knows for sure.  The point still stands, there is no way of knowing if what he is saying he will make ends up a game you want to play until you actually play it.

2. Who were the big inbvestors interfering with EvE?  DAoC?  Comparing a 5 million game to 50+ million dollar games is silly, compare it to the other small budget games.

  Eaderbreca

MMORPG.com Streamer

Joined: 4/04/12
Posts: 44

4/18/13 3:56:25 PM#48
You're surprised KS is an enonomical move? Uuh. Okay?

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  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6140

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

4/18/13 3:57:51 PM#49

It's actually pretty interesting to see opinions about Kickstarter and why people think some developer puts his game on KS.

Personaly I see it  as a measurement  to see if the gaming community is truly interested.

 

  Zinzan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1368

4/18/13 3:57:59 PM#50
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by Dihoru

The OP is kinda right, I mean the game likely will have some outside investement other than KS but KS does allow MJ and his company to self-publish and if this game is as popular in its niche as EVE is... well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

 

Anyone that claims MJ is doing it solely for the gamers... well dumb question then: Why won't CU be a F2P game supported by discrete in-game ads and nothing else? Anarchy Online did that for a fair while with no issue and it had (back then) a similar pop to what MJ claims to expect CU to have.

This question has been answered by MJ himself. He sees F2P resulting in a rapid turnover of casual players that won't stick around to support the game. F2P games are funded by a small percentage of the total population and he knows this game will be niche. That small percentage of a small player base won't be enough to keep the game running. He's not expecting more than a couple of hundred K players, at best.

Therefore the game will be subscription based.

If after one year CU has more then 50k subscribers I think MJ would be happy, it will never retain the numbers you are touting.

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 559

4/18/13 3:58:26 PM#51

If you think KS for CU is dishonest then dont fund it and move on with your life.

Its not your job to manage other people's money.

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2635

4/18/13 3:58:45 PM#52

I am not a backer, but I find the OP to be kind of conspiracy theory like, if MJ barrows a good chunk of money, like the 3 of the 5 million without kickstarter that he would of needed to do, then he would of only had 40% of the money into it, and the investors would of had 60%, making him a minority partner.

 

You could of argued that e then could of put 2.5 million in (to be 50/50 in that scenario), but none of us really know his finances, maybe he has .5 million to throw in, but he is keeping it as a safeguard for overruns, to make sure he can release the mmo.

 

People that donate get a copy of the game for the most part, and other things, if you cannot bare to lose this money, as if the game doesn't actually release, it sucks, or whatever, you should not give the money, but that is up to the individual to determine, not a 'well wisher' on a mmo forum to determine.

 

I have things keeping me from giving money, but I want to see the game made, if anything, because a lot of people seem passionate about it and really want it.  I loved DAoC, till they kept doing huge nerfs/changes, and got sick of it, but it is still a top 5 mmo imo, due to its RvR innovations.

 

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  4/18/13 3:59:02 PM#53
Originally posted by Nihilist

Obviously major publisers chasing the big money will not make niche games. That is my nobody will fund CU, and why your OP makes zero sense.

Yet Darkfall get funded.  MO got funded.  These games are more niche (in my opinion) than CU because CU doesnt have the hardcore vibe to it the other games do.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

4/18/13 4:02:44 PM#54
Originally posted by Nihilist
Originally posted by rygard49

OP is correct. Kickstarter was meant to be used by unknowns with great ideas as a vehicle to have those ideas become a reality. Now, Kickstarter is being used by major developers, movie studios, and other groups who already have access to the funding they need to develop their ideas and products, but choose to use Kickstarter to grab some free cash.

And why wouldn't they, when they can come up with very reasonable explanations such as, "I don't want to be handcuffed by the publisher", and we lap it up like mother's milk?

I would be more inclined to believe that statement if, by investing through Kickstarter, we received a return once the product began to make profits. Until that happens, this is just a guy abusing crowdfunding to receive a bigger return down the line once the game materializes.

 

KS is hardly 'free money'. None of the gaming projects are 100% funded by KS, the Devs are still putting up the majority of the funding themselves.

KS not funding 100% does not remove the fact that the developer has to provide literally nothing but an overview of the idea before he can scoop up the money. Nothing tangible needs to be exchanged for the $$ being donated.

From a purely economic standpoint of time = money, no such thing as a free lunch, etc,, and knowing MJ spent time on his proposal therefor it wasn't "free", sure I can agree it's not free money. But it's as close as you can get without suddenly coming into a large inheritance without having to lift a finger.

And you fail to address that KS is a not insignificant portion of the funding that will never have to be paid back, and will never dip into profit returns. I say any connected developer who uses KS as a means to fund a game is not doing it for the gamer so much as he's doing it for his own wallet, and saying otherwise truly is dishonest. (Looking at you, too, RG)

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5544

4/18/13 4:04:23 PM#55
Originally posted by Eaderbreca
You're surprised KS is an enonomical move? Uuh. Okay?

I think he was saying that it appears they have been able to change the public's perception from "it's an economical move" to "I'm doing it for the fans and to avoid publishers." He was pointing out that in the end, this is just a cash grab and there isn't anything inherently noble about taking money from the community instead of taking it from private investors that would expect a return. Actually, taking it from the community is often seen as less noble by many.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 779

4/18/13 4:04:55 PM#56
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Nihilist

Can you point to a single major publisher backed MMO created since WoW that has taken any sort of significant risk?

How do you define risk?

No game took a bigger risk than SWTOR financially.  Needing 500k+ subs to stay afloat is substantially riskier than shooting for 50k (and probably needing less).

Based on, possibly, the biggest IP on the planet. I'm sure EA were convinced they could make a ton of money with this one no matter how bad it was. It was Star Wars.

GW2 went to a B2P model (on a costly game) and sold the game on removing progression.  is that not risky?

Given Arenanet's experience with GW and it's B2P model I'm pretty sure they were comfortable with what they were doing.

How about Defiance, a market that is uncertain to exist (will people play Defiance when they can play a traditional MMORPG or a game like Borderlands 2) and tieing it in to a TV show on a channel best known for Megashark vs Gigadinosaur vs. Humongopiranha type movies.

This one is a bit more risky, true. That's probably why it was aimed at Xbox and PS3. It's a much bigger market than a PC only title and they've been crying out for a MMO for years. Also it's a shooter 1st and we all know how big games like HALO and CoD are on consoles. Look at Destiny which doesn't even have a PC version so far.

Major publishers typically dont often deal with small budget games so expecting a major publisher backed game to shoot for a niche audience is silly.

And we agree here, so if the money isn't coming from a major publisher that knows the game industry where is it coming from? Who's going to fund a game that will probably only make enough money to keep the servers open, pay wages and allow for new content to be added. Where's the profits? Where's the big bucks? I don't see this being a huge cash cow for CSE, they won't attract enough players.

 

  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 559

4/18/13 4:11:19 PM#57
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Nihilist
Originally posted by rygard49

OP is correct. Kickstarter was meant to be used by unknowns with great ideas as a vehicle to have those ideas become a reality. Now, Kickstarter is being used by major developers, movie studios, and other groups who already have access to the funding they need to develop their ideas and products, but choose to use Kickstarter to grab some free cash.

And why wouldn't they, when they can come up with very reasonable explanations such as, "I don't want to be handcuffed by the publisher", and we lap it up like mother's milk?

I would be more inclined to believe that statement if, by investing through Kickstarter, we received a return once the product began to make profits. Until that happens, this is just a guy abusing crowdfunding to receive a bigger return down the line once the game materializes.

 

KS is hardly 'free money'. None of the gaming projects are 100% funded by KS, the Devs are still putting up the majority of the funding themselves.

KS not funding 100% does not remove the fact that the developer has to provide literally nothing but an overview of the idea before he can scoop up the money. Nothing tangible needs to be exchanged for the $$ being donated.

From a purely economic standpoint of time = money, no such thing as a free lunch, etc,, and knowing MJ spent time on his proposal therefor it wasn't "free", sure I can agree it's not free money. But it's as close as you can get without suddenly coming into a large inheritance without having to lift a finger.

And you fail to address that KS is a not insignificant portion of the funding that will never have to be paid back, and will never dip into profit returns. I say any connected developer who uses KS as a means to fund a game is not doing it for the gamer so much as he's doing it for his own wallet, and saying otherwise truly is dishonest. (Looking at you, too, RG)

MJ has said KS will cost him 150k. He also has also built a reputation over 20 years of developing games which he is putting on the line with this project.

KS is not free, and only works if you have fans who truly believe in the project.

Its kind of funny how many finance gurus have shown up on this forum claiming to know more about how MMOs are finanaced than MJ.

If MJ could get the 2 million from a private investor who would allow him to make the game he wants I am sure he would have done so.

If you have any evidence that someone was willing to finance the game, but MJ chose to go with KS instead to make no money then please do share.

 

  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 559

4/18/13 4:14:06 PM#58
Originally posted by strangiato2112

Yet Darkfall get funded.  MO got funded.  These games are more niche (in my opinion) than CU because CU doesnt have the hardcore vibe to it the other games do.

Those are you examples? Seriously?

Both of those games were disatsters that I am sure lost a lot of money. Do you really believe the performance of those 2 games would inspire publishers to invest in niche projects?

If anything those examples make it even less likely that anyone would want to touch a niche project.

  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

4/18/13 4:15:35 PM#59
Originally posted by Reklaw

It's actually pretty interesting to see opinions about Kickstarter and why people think some developer puts his game on KS.

Personaly I see it  as a measurement  to see if the gaming community is truly interested.

 

QFT.

I don't think anyone was confused about the fact that the purpose of a Kickstarter is to raise money.

I don't think raising money precludes a person from having ideas, or makes them part of some conspiracy to deceive. 

It just means they need money for a project - and Kickstarter is a nice way of also gauging whether there is enough interest in your niche project to support it. 

So....to me this all says efficient and sensible, not EVIL CONSPIRACY or (for instance) A FOUNDATION OF DISHONESTY.

 

  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

4/18/13 4:16:11 PM#60
I thank you kindly for your concern about my money, however. :)
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