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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » POLL: Should there be some type of Player to Player Collision Detection in CU?

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123 posts found
  poisonman

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/09
Posts: 59

4/15/13 6:20:50 PM#81
Maybe add some sort of a shove system if your stronger than the enemy character (Strength based) or Squeeze / Dodge / Whatever past a enemy (Agility / Dexterity based) but only if the enemy isn't using a defense stance or ability like shield wall, hold the line, etc
 
So you can move past enemy CD possibly.   Who knows I'm sure they can think of something.
 
Problem is, just being able to move through people is silly, especially enemies, friendlies / realm mates I can understand, but that will cause stacking at times and I think that is silly too. CD brings some more realism to the table and tactics, strategy, combat / situational awareness.  It can be really fun.  Just needs to be done well, I agree.

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  Niix_Ozek

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Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 6:30:45 PM#82
I just don't get the silly argument
I don't see what the outrage is over it, as I firmly believe it doesn't "add" tactics like people claim, there is no proof to that, simply changes which tactics you have available to use intelligently, I don't see the big deal walking through someone as I'm shooting fireballs at their face as I do it all is fine to me

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  poisonman

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/09
Posts: 59

4/15/13 7:23:24 PM#83

Plenty of proof, your lack of argeement or acknowledgement of such proof really has no bearing on its truth or accuracy.

There has been combat on this planet for centuries.

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  Niix_Ozek

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Posts: 404

4/15/13 7:38:13 PM#84
What are you talking about?
I'm talking about proof between a CD video game and a non CD video game
??

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  poisonman

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/09
Posts: 59

4/15/13 7:49:06 PM#85
Sheesh and you were the person calling someone else a Troll 10 posts ago, pretty ironic lol.

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  Niix_Ozek

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Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 8:01:58 PM#86
What. Lol?

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  poisonman

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/09
Posts: 59

4/15/13 8:15:50 PM#87

Exactly...

Combat is based off Collision.  If we fight and I punch you, my fist collides with you, causing damage.

I understand older games didn't have Collision Detection due to technical limitations with hardware, software, and networking (internet speeds), etc.  Nowadays these things are less of a issue and I'm more than confident Andrew Meggs could make it work.

As long as he can do it without it causing Lag and Framerate issues there is no reason he shouldn't do it.

There is no reason people should be freely walking through Enemy Players like they aren't even there, like they are Ghosts or Holograms or something, it is silly, it is just stupid if it can be avoided.

You also shouldn't beable to freely walk through Friendlies / Realm Mates either, especially in combat.   This causes other silly side effects like stacking, where you can have casters / healers standing inside tanks for protection so they are hard to target, zergs / groups hiding their numbers, etc.

Exception to this is in Safe areas where there is no combat.

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  User Deleted
4/15/13 11:24:21 PM#88
Originally posted by Taldier

Why do you assume that CD would be implemented in a way that there would only be one way to interact with it?

Because there hasn't been a game developer with an original thought in the past 8 years?

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/16/13 8:51:06 AM#89

I firmly believe it doesn't "add" tactics like people claim, there is no proof to that, simply changes which tactics you have available to use intelligently,

CC doesn't add tactics.  It just changes which tactics you have available to use intelligently.

 

As long as he can do it without it causing Lag and Framerate issues there is no reason he shouldn't do it.

One caveat: the game needs a detailed terrain QA pass to help mitigate the chance that the terrain will be lame, for lack of a better word, with the CD implementation.  E.g. WAR keeps prior to adding the second ramp.  There are legitimate situations where CD will make PvP too narrow, or make holding a chokepoint too easy.  So, there needs to be adequate counterplay (as with all mechanics).  Of course, this means that knockbacks will be highly likely.

I think it's almost certain that an MMORPG released nowadays will include KBs and likely pulls in the array of CC.  However, if CU decides against KB/pulls, then CD will probably necessarily be limited since those are some of the primary tools to deal with it on a routine basis.

 

Because there hasn't been a game developer with an original thought in the past 8 years?

That's interesting, considering that EAMythic implemented a coherent CD mechanic with sufficient counterplay within the past 8 years.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/16/13 9:10:46 AM#90
Originally posted by EasymodeX

I firmly believe it doesn't "add" tactics like people claim, there is no proof to that, simply changes which tactics you have available to use intelligently,

CC doesn't add tactics.  It just changes which tactics you have available to use intelligently.

 I don't disagree, but it does allow the exceptionally skilled to take out far greater numbers which in turn helps balance the ability to have 1v1, groupVgroup, and zergVzerg battles all in the same game.

As long as he can do it without it causing Lag and Framerate issues there is no reason he shouldn't do it.

One caveat: the game needs a detailed terrain QA pass to help mitigate the chance that the terrain will be lame, for lack of a better word, with the CD implementation.  E.g. WAR keeps prior to adding the second ramp.  There are legitimate situations where CD will make PvP too narrow, or make holding a chokepoint too easy.  So, there needs to be adequate counterplay (as with all mechanics).  Of course, this means that knockbacks will be highly likely.

I think it's almost certain that an MMORPG released nowadays will include KBs and likely pulls in the array of CC.  However, if CU decides against KB/pulls, then CD will probably necessarily be limited since those are some of the primary tools to deal with it on a routine basis.

 I guess I should have mentioned in this thread sooner my distain for KB's and pulls, as you basically just said what i've been saying this whole time. So glad to see we're on the same page.

Because there hasn't been a game developer with an original thought in the past 8 years?

That's interesting, considering that EAMythic implemented a coherent CD mechanic with sufficient counterplay within the past 8 years.

Opinions. Don't need to be condesending because your statement as his is an opinion and you arn't necessarily right :)

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/16/13 9:29:28 AM#91

Opinions. Don't need to be condesending because your statement as his is an opinion and you arn't necessarily right :)

1.  I am condescending by nature.

2.  Stating that no developer has had an original thought related to CD is comprised of a very small fraction of opinion, and a very large fraction of [false] fact.  In context, we can assume that the phrase "original thought" refers to a non-blind implementation of CD where some counterplay exists or is incorporated.

 

It's common knowledge that CD is an uncommon mechanic in MMORPGs.  Therefore, any implementation of CD with any semblance of counterplay (whether sufficient or insufficient), qualifies as "original" for the sake of this discussion.

As a result, EAMythic's implementation of CD with terrain adjustments, KBs and pulls, defense-penetrating burst, and collision-bypassing leaps and backflips, certainly qualifies as "original", since 2 of those mechanics were very unique at the time, and the other still is pretty unique.

 

So, opinions are fine, but what he stated was far from an opinion.  I could say that "the air quality of this building is toxic", but the fact that my co-workers aren't falling over from asphyxiation pretty much negates the validity of my "opinion".

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/16/13 9:38:10 AM#92

I don't necessarily he meant "original" in that meaning, he likely meant "original" in the assumption that he thought it worked enhancing gameplay.

Original was a poor choice of words when arguing with a condesending person like you lol, however none the less.

I think the whole CD argument boils down to if you agree with knockbacks and pulls, at least from my research. People for CD like KB's and pull type mechanics, and people against it don't.

 

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/16/13 10:02:53 AM#93

That's an interesting perspective since CD is a separate mechanic from KBs and pulls.  There are other ways to implement sufficient counterplay; KBs and pulls just happen to be the simplest answers and one of the significant tools used in WAR.

 

The system could also include (a) wide terrain, or (b) variable terrain (or both).  This would enable flanking to be more pervasive and common (or more specifically, viable in situations where you have a lot of geometry to deal with, like the inside of a keep).  You could have the crafter class craft C4 goddamn explosives to knock a hole in a wall and enable a flank.  Maybe not, but the concept is available.

The system could also include "big leaps".  Not necessarily frequent, but some leaps in order to jump past any sort of tank line that forms up.  A tank wall without support is pretty soft indeed.

The system could also limit the tankiness of tank lines.  In WAR, healers could output a very large amount of healing, and tanks could mitigate a very large fraction of damage.  In a PvP-only game, the "98% mitigation" model is unnecessary.  It could be that CU would have tanks that only had "pretty good" durability compared to the norm.  As a result, the tank wall is not so tanky.

The system could also implement abilities that bypass defenses (e.g. morale abilities in WAR).  This enables a coordinated force to shred chunks of the tank wall -- with coordination and on cooldowns.

Most of the above options were in WAR, which is why WAR's implementation of CD was reasonably good.  KBs and pulls make the counterplay "comprehensive".  Even without those CC, many options are still there.  Are they enough?  Don't know.  They could be.

 

This is why CD should be discussed distinctly from KBs/pulls.

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 1983

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

4/16/13 10:11:51 AM#94

One thing that I always found odd about MMOs is that unlike nearly all other games, they often haven't got CD. You get used to it after a while, but it's pretty weird when it's something you've just always taken for granted.

I think it's fine to not have it if technically it becomes too problematic, like in WAR for example. But if it's possible to do it well like in other games, I think it'd be silly not to have. In fact the whole idea of people categorically being against collision detection seems out of this world.

Currently playing: Divinity: Original Sin, FTL, Hearthstone and Skyrim.
Eagerly anticipating: Camelot Unchained, Elite: Dangerous, Legend of Grimrock 2 and Star Citizen.

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/16/13 10:17:53 AM#95

That's because MMORPGs have more technical constraints with lag and rubberbanding than other game types, due to the number of players and server-side calculations for everything.  Virtually all MMOs will have ghosting and rubberbanding issues in general until they refine their netcode (my favorite example of all time is gouging a moving target in WoW, which was essentially broken for half a decade).

 

In addition to that, the concept of "MMO" means that many many players can be in enclosed areas, creating additional constraints.  So, the genre has often avoided CD.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/16/13 11:45:33 AM#96
Originally posted by EasymodeX

That's an interesting perspective since CD is a separate mechanic from KBs and pulls.  There are other ways to implement sufficient counterplay; KBs and pulls just happen to be the simplest answers and one of the significant tools used in WAR.

 Simplest answers, but in my mind bad answers and maybe thats why CD has been poor in my opinion. Maybe they can come up with other ideas / answers ... they will get a lot more ideas be it they listen to their players more than most companies maybe? but that can also give them a lot of bad bad BAD answers.

The system could also include (a) wide terrain, or (b) variable terrain (or both).  This would enable flanking to be more pervasive and common (or more specifically, viable in situations where you have a lot of geometry to deal with, like the inside of a keep).  You could have the crafter class craft C4 goddamn explosives to knock a hole in a wall and enable a flank.  Maybe not, but the concept is available.

The system could also include "big leaps".  Not necessarily frequent, but some leaps in order to jump past any sort of tank line that forms up.  A tank wall without support is pretty soft indeed.

Any class leaping a tank wall is suicide as they have zero way to get back lol, but again like KB and pulls ... leaps fall into the same category for me, dislike those kind of teleport abilities.


This is why CD should be discussed distinctly from KBs/pulls.

I hope CD is discussed seperately from KBs/pulls ... and KBs / pulls arn't even a discussion to be included because people porting around leaping around isn't what i would include in fluid gameplay. But some people like it so i'm sure they will be on the table at some point.

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/16/13 12:07:20 PM#97

Any class leaping a tank wall is suicide as they have zero way to get back lol,

That's why it takes balls of steel (even for Witch Elves).

You do it for the glory and for your realm, even though you'll probably eat dirt at the end of the play.

but again like KB and pulls ... leaps fall into the same category for me, dislike those kind of teleport abilities.

Now you're getting picky.  I dislike the current crop of MMO leap / teleport spam (featured in WoW Rift and now GW2), but they should exist for variety, IMO.  They are pretty fun mechanics to use.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/16/13 12:22:11 PM#98
Originally posted by EasymodeX

Any class leaping a tank wall is suicide as they have zero way to get back lol,

That's why it takes balls of steel (even for Witch Elves).

You do it for the glory and for your realm, even though you'll probably eat dirt at the end of the play.

but again like KB and pulls ... leaps fall into the same category for me, dislike those kind of teleport abilities.

Now you're getting picky.  I dislike the current crop of MMO leap / teleport spam (featured in WoW Rift and now GW2), but they should exist for variety, IMO.  They are pretty fun mechanics to use.

I am a bit picky, because I see the value in keeping combat simplier. It caters more to the player that will stay for 8 years, instead of the one thats jumping from MMO to MMO to find the next "new cool" ability. Being niche I was hoping they would get away from these abilities, but we'll see I don't think they've talked at all about abilities or classes specifically yet.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/16/13 12:32:56 PM#99
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

I am a bit picky, because I see the value in keeping combat simplier. It caters more to the player that will stay for 8 years, instead of the one thats jumping from MMO to MMO to find the next "new cool" ability. Being niche I was hoping they would get away from these abilities, but we'll see I don't think they've talked at all about abilities or classes specifically yet.

This is actually a little offensive.  I'd ask you to provide any evidence of a correlation between customer loyalty and bland mechanics.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/16/13 12:37:54 PM#100
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

I am a bit picky, because I see the value in keeping combat simplier. It caters more to the player that will stay for 8 years, instead of the one thats jumping from MMO to MMO to find the next "new cool" ability. Being niche I was hoping they would get away from these abilities, but we'll see I don't think they've talked at all about abilities or classes specifically yet.

This is actually a little offensive.  I'd ask you to provide any evidence of a correlation between customer loyalty and bland mechanics.

Just from my experience, and experience drives everything. I've played games for a long time seeing people come and go, and some come back when they add new cool abilities then fade away and quit again.

Just experience, don't be offended lol.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

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