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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » It's easy to see now why/how MMOs have got so bad.

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100 posts found
  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

4/15/13 10:53:34 AM#21
I'm pretty sure you've been stalking me! I think mark already said something about a safe starter area so that sounds alot like a tutorial.
  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

4/15/13 10:55:57 AM#22

Lets talk about AH's and DaoC. yes, the consignment merchants were searchable and yes you could buy directly from them with a markup. There were other things though that you needed to talk specifically to a crafter to get done, spellcrafting and alchemy.

Even to this day you can find players constantly spamming region chat looking for a spellcrafter to imbue some armor for their templates. I'd imagine CU will be similar, your basic items, potions, siege, even basic gear will be easy to obtain but just like a spellcrafter in DaoC if you want the best armor/weopons you are going to need to talk to someone specifically to build it for you. Not only that you are going to have to escort that person to a mighty forge in the middle of a hotly contested zone so they can build the item you request.

MJ has also mentioned for basic materials like wood, leather straps, metal that an AH isn't out of the picture. Though this would be restricted to just the basic materials. You will never be able to buy weopons or armor from such a system.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

4/15/13 11:13:04 AM#23
Originally posted by EasymodeX

 

solo story lines,

A solo story line will be mandatory in order to get any non-hardcore player into the game.  I even want one and I consider myself a pretty avid fan of RvR.

This I do not agree with at all. Its the very opposite.

Story lines, 90% of the people rush thru, it guides you to end game as fast as possible. Often having less game time than your average rpg console game.

Compared to a sandbox for example, where i can make my own story line, take part in different features and game mechanics on a whim, and taking my time in the area I am at.

To me the new aged mmo's are more hardcore as everyone rushes to max level, doesnt want to grind (but dont mind end game grinding?), and skips creativity.

Story line last a few weeks for your average games, then its dried up and you wait weeks to months for new content. I prefer making my own content, taking my time, exploring the depths of the game,  and playing casual.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

4/15/13 11:16:17 AM#24

In simplest terms:  Conflicting design objectives.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

4/15/13 11:19:15 AM#25

Ok I'll talk about another OP topic. Group finder and soloability. Both are in CU! Just not in the way you'd imagine.

In DaoC there are plenty of places for a person to go solo. In fact solo'ing was one of my favorite playstyles. Add in the fact that any class could kill any other class (under the right circumstances) solo'ing became extremely fun. You might even get an awesome title like "Lone Enforcer" to display showing how awesome of a soloer you are. Even crafters I'd imagine will be able to solo. In DaoC there were plenty of times I took towers with both rams and trebs. Or maybe as a crafter you venture out into a risky area and try and mine as much as possible before someone finds you and trys to gank you. I'd imagine once you get to that area you set up traps around the perimeter of where you are harvesting. Sort of like an early warning system that someone is nearby.

I haven't even begun to talk about how awesome solo'ing in The Depths is going to be. I remember in DaoC Darkness Falls was a stealthers favorite place to solo.

Ok now on to Group Finder. This one is a bit easier, just type in region "Region: Caster Looking for 8man, or Caster looking for small group, or caster looking for duo"

In DaoC there is a staging area where everyone gathers to form up their groups. This was in both OF and NF and will be in CU. I've never had a terribly hard time finding a group in DaoC using this system. Thus there is no real need for a group finder in CU. Now if you are talking about Raiding, that is even easier to find a group especially if they take the battlegroup system from DaoC. In DaoC the battlegroup leader can actually see who in the battlegroup is solo and can help all the solo'ers in that battlegroup make their own little group in the BG (battlegroup) If you ever played Albion you would know how easy it  is to join the zerg and contribute to your realms ability to take keeps/towers and even relics.

 

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

4/15/13 11:45:12 AM#26

Stop feeding the trolls.

All that needs to be said is the following:

"If that's what you are looking for, this game is not for you.  I wish you luck in your journeys!"

The backers overwhelmingly support the game MJ is describing and I expect that to continue.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/15/13 11:47:21 AM#27
Originally posted by EasymodeX

I'm not trying to offend when I say this, just being honest, but this game isn't for you.

Then it won't get funded and it will crash and burn.

 

It's not a casual friendly game. Mark Jacobs is making a game for the old school RvR crowd. Players who understand that to have an impact on RvR you need to be part of a group or guild, you have to be dedicated, you have to be unconcerned with the trappings of the modern MMO like tiered kit chasing, and PvE raids every other night.

[mod edit]

I understand perfectly what you're looking for and why, but you won't find it here. There are plenty of MMO's out there that will cater to your requirements.

[mod edit]

It may indeed crash and burn, but as I pointed out MJ knows that is a risk and it's one he's willing to take. Personally I think it's a brave move and regardless of whether the game succeeds or fails I think MJ deserves some respect just for having the balls to try this.

I didn't intend to sound cendescending but obviously you have no problem with that. I don't know if I'm older school or not and I never claimed to be. I do know that I'm 50 in a few months and have been playing MMO's since Meridain 59, along with many other genre of games. I started gaming in 1982 on the C64. Does that make me old school? I don't know. Either way I am not your "son".

I did read your post, all the way through and I didn't latch onto a single criticism. I certainly didn't go into fanboi trollmode as you so eloquently put it. What I did was try to convey Mark Jacobs' attitude towards the game's development and the probable response to that. I would also like to point out that at no time was I trolling and I am most certainly not a fanboi. I'm interested to see if this can work but fanboi is a bit of a stretch.

This wil be a niche game, it will not appeal to the majority.

Calling me a troll or fanboi won't change that. Using a condescending attitude won't change that. Claiming to be older school won't change that.

I said in my first post, I have no wish to offend you but this is the truth about the game. I thought I had written a well reasoned and polite reply to try and explain this to you. If you can't accept it for what it is and how it's being designed then it simply isn't a game you're going to want to play. I'm having a hard time understanding why you're getting so worked up about it. It's a game, man. If it's not your cup of tea then just pass on it.

Or perhaps you'd like to insult me some more.

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

4/15/13 11:49:07 AM#28

I haven't seen trolling, just disagreement with the direction that can easily reach a middleground without breaking any FPs. Sometimes people get worked up ;)

 

  sketocafe

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 610

4/15/13 12:00:18 PM#29

Convenience has it's costs.

Auction Houses make the buying and selling of gear a breeze. You don't have to spend time where you could be out slaughtering things standing in a marketplace and hawking your wares. Nor do you have to devote hours standing in same marketplace waiting to get the items you want at the price you desire.  I feel that an unintended consequence having an auction house  is that it contributes to a less tightly knit community because what is essentially an exchange of items between one player and another is conducted by an automated third party, removing any actual contact between a buyer and seller. These little bits of contact may generally amount to nothing but with any bit of contact you have with another person there is a chance for a relationship to grow. This guy was a douche and is now my enemy. That guy was cool and I'm going to buy all my armor from him. 

LFD tools auto match you to a group and whisk you to away to a dungeon without any effort. This is an undeniably good thing for those with a limited time to spend on gaming, people who have the odd hour or two to spend at the computer between work and family and life in general. What do we give up for this ease though? A LFD tool requires abssolutely no interaction between anyone.  Before, at the bare minimum, one person had to at least announce in zone chat where the instance was that they were LFM, and another person had to respond, even  if it was with something as simple as "I'll DPS that." Magically zapping you inside the instance when your que pops removes any chance of emergent world pvp while groups from two sides are waiting for all of their members. Once again, an opportunity for interaction with other people in the game, both negative in the form of a fight with your enemy and positive in the ability to jump into a fight between another group from your faction and the enemy, is gone. Hell, with some LFD tools any reason to be out in the world is gone. 

I think the most devious killer in the form of convenience in modern mmos comes from something that's actually outside the games themselves. Between wikis and forums, there is simply too much information available to players of modern mmos. There's no mystery anymore, just shopping lists of items you need to get to gear out your character. There's no exploration of the world, just detailed maps of it or answers to specific questions along the lines of "walk to X and catch the boat to Y, then take the flight point to Z. Doesn't it help to make a world more immersive when you actually have to immerse yourself in it, just to get to your next questing area? Except for a select few, no players learn boss fights anymore in games with raiding. They just learn proven strategies, and when they are able to execute them and are geared enough for the encounter, they down the boss. Sure, this is convenient in that you progress through contect more quickly, but is victory as sweet as it would have been if you hadn't flipped to the end of the book and looked up the answers?

These conveniences in modern MMOs that many take for granted and those you mentioned in your OP require if they are to play aren't terrible things. But we must realize that there are consequences from having them. Thing is, I think we could live without some of these things. Most of what we get from this stuff is time. Time spent looking for a group. Time spent travelling to a dungeon. Time spent in a trade channel. These conveniences are saving us from having forced downtime. But downtime isn't always bad. Many of succesfull single player game developers put a lot of effort into testing their games simply for pacing. Bioshocks that aren't infinite had puzzles in them. Was this because fps players love puzzles and the solving of them? No, it slows down the pace when needed. It gives you a way to interact with the world other than by killing the things in it. It provides you with space between fights. We have all felt like things were dragging on too long when playing games, wanted one section to just be over. That's a pacing problem. A little downtime at the cost of a little less convenience goes a long way in addressing that problem.

 

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

4/15/13 12:00:41 PM#30
I agree totally with this post 100% except your last sentence. I do not believe CU will be anything more than instance capped PvP like GW2.
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17372

4/15/13 12:09:30 PM#31
Originally posted by EasymodeX

I'm not trying to offend when I say this, just being honest, but this game isn't for you.

Then it won't get funded and it will crash and burn.

 

It's not a casual friendly game. Mark Jacobs is making a game for the old school RvR crowd. Players who understand that to have an impact on RvR you need to be part of a group or guild, you have to be dedicated, you have to be unconcerned with the trappings of the modern MMO like tiered kit chasing, and PvE raids every other night.

[mod edit] What part of player shops makes for better RvR?  What part of player shops has anything to do with a group or guild?

Using bad oldschool mechanics just be be oldschool is fucking retarded.

I don't think you quite comprehend the playerbase of an RvR game.  For RvR to be successful, you need population.  You need the emain zerg.  What kind of player makes up that zerg?  The casual pug.  Without them, the PvP drags, and dies.  If you want to be successful, you need the casual RvR player.

CU is supposed to be an RvR game, not a hardcore game for elitist 8-man no-school no-job, no-life asshats.

 

I understand perfectly what you're looking for and why, but you won't find it here. There are plenty of MMO's out there that will cater to your requirements.

[mod edit]

 

However, solo story lines?  Your story line is you playing your character and experiencing the game itself through everyday interacting.  Sadly, if player needs to have their hand held to tell a story of their own character then the character's story probably shouldn't be told in the first place.

Depends if you want anyone to play the game.  Many players may try CU to see what "oldschool RvR" is about, but if they can't even find where to start or get rolled without doing much, they're just going to leave and play GW2 or something they're already familiar with.

As I said in my post, I would envision the "solo story line" as a 2 hour pseudo-PvE RvR track where it's basically like a solo mission in an FPS game before you go play multiplayer.  You know, so the player's not a complete drag on your team.  E.g. a tutorial.

The one useful thing about PvE in games is that it does give the player some time to become slightly proficient with their class.  That doesn't mean "PvE" should be in CU, but it does mean that the player should have the option (or not?) of some solo / structured content so they don't immediately fail epicly in RvR where teammates are relying on them.

Because that's going to make players like me talk shit to them in chat and they'll be upset and leave the game.  That or I'll get a temp ban from a CSR.

hmmm, he was trying to be polite and you are throwing a temper tantrum. Or at least that's how it's coming off.

I can say that I personally wouldn't want an AH, or anything that you are askign for. Therefore "the game would be for me". But it has things that you don't want therefore "the game is not for you".

It remains to be seen if it will crash and burn.

IF the game can be financially successful with the old school mechanics then it proves the point that a game like this can survive. They are willing to take that chance.

You can demand all you want but it seems that there are people who want this type of game play. Therefore, other than you discussing it for the sake of discussing it, there is nothing for you here.

 

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/15/13 12:13:52 PM#32

Good post by Sketocafe.

 

Something else to bear in mind. AH to sell loot. With little to no PvE in the game, what loot? Gear will be crafted as stated clearly by the devs. You're probably gonna find that most gear will be made to order the same way it was in DAoC. There shouldn't be much need for an AH.

 

Also LFD tools. Dungeons? Really? See that bit about little to no PvE? So you want an LFD tool just for The Depths? I don't see why something as simple as an LFG channel wouldn't be sufficient to cover anyone wanting to find a spot in a RvR group.

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/15/13 12:23:44 PM#33
[mod edit].

If someone has in-game videos for a kickstarter then they already have the game in those videos.  Those developers are just trying to grab some extra money to push in a few final features and hype up the product before pushing it out the door.

 

Youre free to buy in to glorified pre-order campaigns for other games if thats what you want.

However thats not the same thing as players getting involved with development of a game on the ground floor and having their opinions actualy be taken into account. 

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1788

4/15/13 12:26:52 PM#34
Originally posted by Thorbrand
I agree totally with this post 100% except your last sentence. I do not believe CU will be anything more than instance capped PvP like GW2.

Let's see if I am reading this right:

 

You think CU rvr will be like GW2? GW2 pvp is in an instanced area entirely seperated from their pve game and CU's rvr is entirely based within the main large open world they are developing an in house engine for that manages up to 1000 players at once.

 

Yup ... totally the same.

 

 

You stay sassy!

  Panther2103

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 2084

4/15/13 12:27:49 PM#35

I agree in the sense that games are becoming too easy in this genre. Not all of them, but a majority are catering to people who don't have very much time or a very short attention span. You can't just put the blame on the kids who own consoles though, I own both consoles and have yet to complain that a game needs some sort of convenience factor. The older generation is partially to blame as well, seeing as alot of the gamers who started on EQ or UO didn't have full time jobs and a family back in that time so they were able to do whatever they wanted and play games however long they wanted. I see more people from that area complaining they don't have enough time to play a time consuming game so they want more convenience factors to be able to physically enjoy the game instead of consistantly feeling inferior due to the fact they can't play it 50 hours a week. The argument saying the wow generation killed mmo's is getting tired and there isn't much left to say in that other than, yes it made developers go down a path for developing easier content, convenient travel times, and solo content. But that helps totally different people in different ways. 

I'm completely for a hard core mmorpg, that has obnoxious travel times, obnoxious mob spawns, no instances just open dungeons. But at the same time I don't mind playing a game with conveniences as well. You can't say people who enjoy console games are the main reason for this, because there are plenty of console games that don't cater to your every whim. Why was assasins creed even mentioned? It isn't an instant gratification game, it's a story heavy game.

  JimmyYO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 541

4/15/13 12:28:16 PM#36
Originally posted by WellzyC

 

This is a niche MMO, the rules were laid out, and the vision was shared.

 

But this got really popular really fast, and just looking at this forum alone you can see the influx of post wow era mmoers, who just started playing mmos after 2010  because their Xbox was getting old...are just complaining up a storm about this and that..

I want fast travel,

I want an action house,

I want dungeon finders, loot drops,  tokens and quest, solo story lines,  pretty much everyting that the kids who play assasins creed and black ops want. Tons of shallow scripted content and anti community systems that dont belong in MMOS.

 

It is soo easy to see how the devs that just want to sell copies can get sucked into this casual player crap. Becasue it just staggers me the amount of people who want an MMO to be just a socially shallow crapshoot.

 

MJ is a G*d damn savior..  Stick to your guns sir.

Although I find the CU project to be a waste of money on a washed up developer this is probably the most accurate post I've seen in many months.

  uidCaustic

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/11
Posts: 148

4/15/13 12:29:45 PM#37
Originally posted by WellzyC

 

This is a niche MMO, the rules were laid out, and the vision was shared.

 

But this got really popular really fast, and just looking at this forum alone you can see the influx of post wow era mmoers, who just started playing mmos after 2010  because their Xbox was getting old...are just complaining up a storm about this and that..

I want fast travel,

I want an action house,

I want dungeon finders, loot drops,  tokens and quest, solo story lines,  pretty much everyting that the kids who play assasins creed and black ops want. Tons of shallow scripted content and anti community systems that dont belong in MMOS.

 

It is soo easy to see how the devs that just want to sell copies can get sucked into this casual player crap. Becasue it just staggers me the amount of people who want an MMO to be just a socially shallow crapshoot.

 

MJ is a G*d damn savior..  Stick to your guns sir.

 

My first online game was a modification of the core code of CircleMUD.  My first graphical MMO was "The Realm Online".

 

I want a system of economical trade.

I want a system of teleportation.

I want a system of group finding.

 

Because the first MMO's ever created had them, and it is what we expect.

  thexrated

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/04
Posts: 1379

4/15/13 12:38:02 PM#38

I agree with the previous comments that convient game mechanics are needed, as they reduce the amount of time people have to spend menial tasks. I know that there are people enjoy tedious grinds, but I am not one of those.

Besides all the typical bells and whistles, I think there are two things need to done properly by any future MMOs that is looking for longevity:

  1. Dynamic player-driven content - this includes various features that have not been properly done by any MMO today, except perhaps EVE online, but that is a genre in itself. The problem is that this type of content is difficult to develop. You can probably design a hundred linear WoW-esque dungeon in a time it takes to develop a dynamic system that allows all players in the server to participate in an open-world.
  2. Progressively more difficult content - harder, more rewarding content is needed, players need challenges and also something to aspire towards. If everyone is special, nobody really is. Raiding in classic WoW is a good example of a working design. This does not only have to mean PvE content, but all content should be progressively more difficult and require increasing amount of cooperation to complete - whether it is about building a city or conquering a difficult raid instance. The hardest content should so so difficult that only few dedicated guilds will be able to take up the challenge.
 

"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/15/13 12:42:13 PM#39

Part of the success of DAOC was that the objectives were so large that, in a normal situation, no single guild was strong enough to take a relic by themselves.  Most alliances of guild were not strong enough, for that matter.

 

That fostered realm communication and cooperation to get big things done.

  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2437

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

4/15/13 12:44:00 PM#40
Originally posted by thexrated

I agree with the previous comments that convient game mechanics are needed, as they reduce the amount of time people have to spend menial tasks. I know that there are people enjoy tedious grinds, but I am not one of those.


 

I disagree, i'd much rather spend a bit more time trying to get to know people than log in, do my dailies and/or gear grind raiding/arenas.

Mmo's today feel more like a job than fun. You group up with people through group finder and barely even say one word to each other. There's no community in today's mmo', and it's certainly not fun equpiment grinding and quest grinding for me.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

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