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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Camelot Unchained: Impossibly Driven By Hope?

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75 posts found
  Tuktz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 310

4/15/13 12:00:56 PM#21

There's been no illusions from the get go that this will be a niche market. A lot of people are craving a  game like this vehemently, and will be a diehard group of playerse vs the very casual modern mmo market you see elsewhere. The big game publishers/devs to this point haven't tried something as bold as this, BECAUSE they know its a niche. They all have it in their head they have to make these huge budget giant themepark mmos, that leave those of us that want features like this sitting on the side sighing time and time again with reskinned mmo clone after mmo clone come out. Lots of letdowns over the years in that  regard. They're thinking revues/profits, and want  the biggest playerbases possible (either for more micro transactions in a f2p/b2p model, or more subs in a sub model)

People need to realize, and have the same epiphany we did, that big player numbers doesn't necessarily = good, especially considering the subjective nature of what different players consider good.

Will CU be perfect? No nothing ever is. Will it still be full of people with different opinions that debate how things should be done? of course, we're all human after all, and that's human nature.

They do have the cojones though to flat out challenge some of the modern mmorpg tropes, and flat out say we're going to do something different/sometimes contrary to what all the big game publishers/devs say is the way everyone should do it now.

I think that's the source of a lot of the hate on CU. It's challenging what all these themepark & big money publishers have been trying to establish as the only way to do things. People don't want their worldview challenged. =)

 

I do personally feel like these big game publishers/devs have abandoned the players that helped get the mmorpg genre off the ground in the first place in late 90's and early 2000's. They want more players, and don't mind dropping the mmo vets in the dust to get that done. We've been kind of abandoned. Heck I'm playing EVE now, and leaving all the themepark mmo's for the kiddies.


MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  Edany

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 187

4/15/13 12:07:01 PM#22

I would like to personally thank the author for letting me that the gaming world has 'moved on'. Yes, I am aware of that. Painfully, excruciatingly all too aware. The MMORPG genre has 'moved on' to:

  • single player quest leveling
  • daily quest grinding
  • gear grinding / token of the day grinding
  • random group and dungeon finders
  • zero tools for the community to hold ass-hats accountable
  • zero incentive for grouping
  • repetitive scripted PvE encounters
  • tacked on and lackluster instanced 5 minute 'scenarios' for PvP
  • unimaginative mirrored classes
  • balancing RvR / PvP to the scripted PvE encounters
The list of trite bullshit offered by the developers that have 'moved on' goes on and on and on. And with each iteration, the quality of both game and player have suffered tremendously for it.
 
The reality of it is, the 'old-school DAoC' community has never died, and it has never gone away. It is as vibrant as it ever was, and you can witness that just by the amount of community fan-sites, message boards, and even by the growing community of backers being developed on the Kickstarter page itself.
 
Implying that having that sense of community and Realm Pride again is a pipe dream because the genre has 'moved on' is pedantic at best. It isn't that these things do not or can not exisit again in the genre, it is that the genre has spent the last 10 years taking away the tools that the community used to foster that Realm Pride by giving us the trash of today's MMORPGs I listed above.
 
I'm glad you enjoyed DAoC's PvE, however, it seems that by admittedly focusing on that aspect of the game and staying off of the 'front-lines' you missed a lot of what DAoC offered while still managing to have fun and feel that you were contributing. Not many of today's MMOs can provide you with that. They haven't come close.
 
This is not DAoC. This is not DAoC 2. This is a place where a developer finally has the balls to let go of my hand while I cross the road with a group of my like-minded friends. It just so happens that the developer who introduced us to Realm Pride and RvR is the developer who is potentially offering all of us old-fucks an MMO home again - and thank God.
 
 
  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

4/15/13 12:17:40 PM#23
Originally posted by Edany

I would like to personally thank the author for letting me that the gaming world has 'moved on'. Yes, I am aware of that. Painfully, excruciatingly all too aware. The MMORPG genre has 'moved on' to:

  • single player quest leveling
  • daily quest grinding
  • gear grinding / token of the day grinding
  • random group and dungeon finders
  • zero tools for the community to hold ass-hats accountable
  • zero incentive for grouping
  • repetitive scripted PvE encounters
  • tacked on and lackluster instanced 5 minute 'scenarios' for PvP
  • unimaginative mirrored classes
  • balancing RvR / PvP to the scripted PvE encounters
The list of trite bullshit offered by the developers that have 'moved on' goes on and on and on. And with each iteration, the quality of both game and player have suffered tremendously for it.
 
The reality of it is, the 'old-school DAoC' community has never died, and it has never gone away. It is as vibrant as it ever was, and you can witness that just by the amount of community fan-sites, message boards, and even by the growing community of backers being developed on the Kickstarter page itself.
 
Implying that having that sense of community and Realm Pride again is a pipe dream because the genre has 'moved on' is pedantic at best. It isn't that these things do not or can not exisit again in the genre, it is that the genre has spent the last 10 years taking away the tools that the community used to foster that Realm Pride by giving us the trash of today's MMORPGs I listed above.
 
I'm glad you enjoyed DAoC's PvE, however, it seems that by admittedly focusing on that aspect of the game and staying off of the 'front-lines' you missed a lot of what DAoC offered while still managing to have fun and feel that you were contributing. Not many of today's MMOs can provide you with that. They haven't come close.
 
This is not DAoC. This is not DAoC 2. This is a place where a developer finally has the balls to let go of my hand while I cross the road with a group of my like-minded friends. It just so happens that the developer who introduced us to Realm Pride and RvR is the developer who is potentially offering all of us old-fucks an MMO home again - and thank God.
 
 

 

Bravo! Good post.

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3139

Veni, Vidi, Converti

4/15/13 12:22:07 PM#24
Originally posted by viney123

The jackass behind Camelot Unchained sees no potential in F2P, and says it'll most die out within a few years. He's the idiot to think games like his will live on forever, while many games go F2P and many great games were F2P from the start. You can still have a community as an F2P, and many P2P communities can be just as bad!

Stick ,l, up yours, developer of Camelot Unchained, and have rooty tooty kickstarter failure with that!

The ad hominem is in bad form. [Mod Edit?]

Business model <-> Game Design. It depends.

-

 Originally posted by Christina Gonzalez

But without a full world, without good PvE content, could a community grow as before? EVE Online is an example in the affirmative.

There is a market for niche games, and CSE is aiming for that. Camelot Unchained is a working title, so further distinguishing it from DAoC is a good thing. Unveiling an actual title and revealing more ways for players to interact and go through experiences together other than building forts and having dependence upon crafters is important if CU wants to give a sense of community importance. I hope the project is funded so we can ultimately see just what kind of game it turns out to be. Kickstarter is home to many nostalgia projects, and indeed, these often seem to the ones getting funded much of the time. Never underestimate people’s good memories and great experiences. But sometimes, maybe the world really has moved on.

Yeah, RvRvR is fun core gameplay - definitely. But what supports it? That is the question that this mmo-rpg needs to be able to address additionally. Secondly the combat if the core really needs to be amazingly fun eg Chivalry viseral fun or otherwise experience a Medieval + supernatural magic melange of blood-splattery?!

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 4986

4/15/13 12:46:57 PM#25
Originally posted by will75

So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.

 

Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

Because Mark Jacobs doesn't deserve my money.

He had his chance with one of the largest IP's in the world. Warhammer. And screwed up beyond any words!

Just like Richard Garriott doesn't deserve my money either.

Both of these over-inflated EGO trippers had a huge studio under their bumbs, plenty of great talent at their finger tips and over 40 million US dollars in funding and more than enough time (5+ years)!

They had all the ingredients they needed to make a great game! (Warhammer Online and Tabula Rasa) and screwed it up BIG TIME!

Same thing with Bioware and SW:TOR! They had the largest budget ever! They had a huge amount of talent at their disposal! They had plenty of time (5+ years)!  And screwed up BIG TIME!

Publishers, in this case EA and NCSoft, had nothing to do with these debacles, as they gave them enough money and enough time to deliver the product.

It's not like they had to rush it to market within 2 years, like ATARI forced Cryptic to with CO and STO.

So please explain to me why this time it would be any different with Mr. Jacobs and Mr.Garriott?

I cannot believe how short of  memory people have these days.

I know it's always easy to portray publishers as the BIG BAD WOLF these days. And in case of EA it's sadly often true lately!

But for the above, EA and NCSoft were sertainly not to blame. Sorry, but that is just very naive.

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

4/15/13 1:04:22 PM#26
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by will75

So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.

 

Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

Because Mark Jacobs doesn't deserve my money.

He had his chance with one of the largest IP's in the world. Warhammer. And screwed up beyond any words!

Just like Richard Garriott doesn't deserve my money either.

Both of these over-inflated EGO trippers had a huge studio under their bumbs, plenty of great talent at their finger tips and over 40 million US dollars in funding and more than enough time (5+ years)!

They had all the ingredients they needed to make a great game! (Warhammer Online and Tabula Rasa) and screwed it up BIG TIME!

Same thing with Bioware and SW:TOR! They had the largest budget ever! They had a huge amount of talent at their disposal! They had plenty of time (5+ years)!  And screwed up BIG TIME!

Publishers, in this case EA and NCSoft, had nothing to do with these debacles, as they gave them enough money and enough time to deliver the product.

It's not like they had to rush it to market within 2 years, like ATARI forced Cryptic to with CO and STO.

So please explain to me why this time it would be any different with Mr. Jacobs and Mr.Garriott?

I cannot believe how short of  memory people have these days.

I know it's always easy to portray publishers as the BIG BAD WOLF these days. And in case of EA it's sadly often true lately!

But for the above, EA and NCSoft were sertainly not to blame. Sorry, but that is just very naive.

Actually, we had three years. We signed the license deal for Warhammer at E3 June 2005, released in September 2008. Plus, the original development timeline for WAR was 2  years and we had two delays and I had to fight to get it to 3 years.

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 4986

4/15/13 1:07:52 PM#27
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by will75

So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.

 

Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

Because Mark Jacobs doesn't deserve my money.

He had his chance with one of the largest IP's in the world. Warhammer. And screwed up beyond any words!

Just like Richard Garriott doesn't deserve my money either.

Both of these over-inflated EGO trippers had a huge studio under their bumbs, plenty of great talent at their finger tips and over 40 million US dollars in funding and more than enough time (5+ years)!

They had all the ingredients they needed to make a great game! (Warhammer Online and Tabula Rasa) and screwed it up BIG TIME!

Same thing with Bioware and SW:TOR! They had the largest budget ever! They had a huge amount of talent at their disposal! They had plenty of time (5+ years)!  And screwed up BIG TIME!

Publishers, in this case EA and NCSoft, had nothing to do with these debacles, as they gave them enough money and enough time to deliver the product.

It's not like they had to rush it to market within 2 years, like ATARI forced Cryptic to with CO and STO.

So please explain to me why this time it would be any different with Mr. Jacobs and Mr.Garriott?

I cannot believe how short of  memory people have these days.

I know it's always easy to portray publishers as the BIG BAD WOLF these days. And in case of EA it's sadly often true lately!

But for the above, EA and NCSoft were sertainly not to blame. Sorry, but that is just very naive.

Actually, we had three years. We signed the license deal for Warhammer at ES June 2005, released in September 2008. Plus, the original development timeline for WAR was 2  years and we had two delays and I had to fight to get it to 3 years.

Alright. I am adult enough to eat my words. In YOUR case.

Mr. Garriott tho (and Bioware with SW:TOR).... is a different matter and those stand. As I followed them from beginning till end.

But as you are looking and posting here anyway. I am sertainly not the only one thinking about this.
Why did you not go for a Three faction system with Warhammer Online and do it right with that game?
The IP sertainly did not restrict you from doing so.
You have to admit yourself that you made quite some bad decisions on Warhammer Online development. :-/

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 616

4/15/13 1:12:17 PM#28
 
 

MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

 

As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

 

JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

 

So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

 

I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

 

I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

 

Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

 

Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

 

----------------------

 

In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

 

YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

 

With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

 
 

Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  dantheman13

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 57

4/15/13 1:15:59 PM#29
As a backer of CU, I know perfectly well that it won't be as good as DAOC.  Nothing ever will.  But DAoC isn't the only MJ game I have enjoyed, I also loved Warhammer.  Yes, Warhammer sucked at release.  I quit in frustration just like everyone else. As a DAOC fan my disappointment was beyond words.  However, when I went back a year or so later after the game was playable, it became one of my favorite games of all time.  Warhammer gets such a bad rap in this community, yet it became a great game.  Public questing was invented, realm pride was re-invented, the scenarios are better than GW2 sPvP, classes were designed around PvP and not PvE, etc.  So for me that's TWO great MMO's that MJ has put out.  I would be a fool not to push for CU.
  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

4/15/13 1:17:28 PM#30
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by will75

So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.

 

Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

Because Mark Jacobs doesn't deserve my money.

He had his chance with one of the largest IP's in the world. Warhammer. And screwed up beyond any words!

Just like Richard Garriott doesn't deserve my money either.

Both of these over-inflated EGO trippers had a huge studio under their bumbs, plenty of great talent at their finger tips and over 40 million US dollars in funding and more than enough time (5+ years)!

They had all the ingredients they needed to make a great game! (Warhammer Online and Tabula Rasa) and screwed it up BIG TIME!

Same thing with Bioware and SW:TOR! They had the largest budget ever! They had a huge amount of talent at their disposal! They had plenty of time (5+ years)!  And screwed up BIG TIME!

Publishers, in this case EA and NCSoft, had nothing to do with these debacles, as they gave them enough money and enough time to deliver the product.

It's not like they had to rush it to market within 2 years, like ATARI forced Cryptic to with CO and STO.

So please explain to me why this time it would be any different with Mr. Jacobs and Mr.Garriott?

I cannot believe how short of  memory people have these days.

I know it's always easy to portray publishers as the BIG BAD WOLF these days. And in case of EA it's sadly often true lately!

But for the above, EA and NCSoft were sertainly not to blame. Sorry, but that is just very naive.

Actually, we had three years. We signed the license deal for Warhammer at ES June 2005, released in September 2008. Plus, the original development timeline for WAR was 2  years and we had two delays and I had to fight to get it to 3 years.

Alright. I am adult enough to eat my words. In YOUR case.

Mr. Garriott tho (and Bioware with SW:TOR).... is a different matter and those stand. As I followed them from beginning till end.

But as you are looking and posting here anyway. I am sertainly not the only one thinking about this.
Why did you not go for a Three faction system with Warhammer Online and do it right with that game?
The IP sertainly did not restrict you from doing so.
You have to admit yourself that you made quite some bad decisions on Warhammer Online development. :-/

First, no worries. You admitted your mistake (5 vs 3) and I will happily reciprocate (within my usual "don't throw people under the bus").

Originally WAR did have a three-faction system in my vision document. We changed that to two factions due to certain issues (financial being one of them). It was a terrible mistake and since I was the head of the studio at that time, no matter what the reasons, I accept responsibility for that one. If I could take it back, I would but please know it wasn't due to "Three faction RvR, unthinkable!" :)

Thanks again for being willing to listen. 

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Coldren

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/08
Posts: 422

4/15/13 1:20:46 PM#31
Originally posted by JeroKane
I cannot believe how short of  memory people have these days.

Nor can I.

You remember the most recent "failures". And if you look closely, there are reasons.

Do you remember the plans for Warhammer before they were bought out by EA? 3 factions (Just confirmed above), more capital cities to invade, etc.?

Do you remember what TR was supposed to be before Destination Games was bought out by NCSoft? Fantasy/Cyberpunk kinda game before it became a military alien invasion game in an attempt to appease eastern and western audiences?

Here are some more memory questions:

Do you remember (Or have ever played) the original Ultimas or UO?

Do you remember any of other games prior to and including DAoC?

When a big company shows up at your doorstep with untold millions of dollars and all the resources you could ever imagine to do what you do best, I challange you to turn them down.

RG and MJ didn't. And they paid dearly for it.

I remember myself going straight to the IGN forums when Mythic was bought out, screaming at the top of my lungs what a mistake it was, that no matter what the executives who are now signing your checks tell you, you are going to be doing EXACTLY what they tell you to. And so it came to pass.

The problem with that is, the executives, the board members, the bean counters.. They're not developers. They have no idea what is involved, or how to think about the problems and communities that surround these games, these worlds, that are built. The games these bigger companies bought never became the games they were designed to be because all the could see was the numbers, and when you only focus on what to do with your prize money, you will more often that not stumble when you actually run the race. They only knew what they COULD make - They had no idea about what was involved in getting there. These two particular companies, it seems, still don't.

I have funded both MJ and RG's newest projects, and I do not, and will not forget anything of their past. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that their desire to make their fortunes blinded them to the reality of what was going to happen. Whether or not they knew it is up for debate, but they are only human, and I can't say I wouldn't have done the same.

For me, personally, this is their last chance. I enjoyed both of their previous works prior to their failures, and I am operating on the premise that, free of all the factors that I believe held them back (Corporate beauracracy, management hell, red tape a plenty), they will be able to do what they used to do best.

They're hungry to prove it. They have to be. And for that, I'll give them their shot.

If these get fully funded (In RG's case, overfunded) and still fail? Then there is no more possible excuse.

But don't assume anyone has forgotten anything. Some of us are quite aware of what was, what is, and most importantly, what could be again... COULD.

 
 
  Coldren

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/08
Posts: 422

4/15/13 1:24:02 PM#32
[Edit - Wrong button.. Sorry!]
  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 4986

4/15/13 1:25:58 PM#33
Originally posted by Mkilbride
 
 

MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

 

As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

 

JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

 

So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

 

I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

 

I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

 

Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

 

Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

 

----------------------

 

In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

 

YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

 

With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

 
 

 I can still ask the same question.

How is it going to be any different now?

Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

But are we as players any different?

With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 616

4/15/13 1:28:42 PM#34

More reasonable than gamers, sure...but he doesn't have a legal requirement to listen to us, unlike publishers.

 

As for different now? HE doesn't have a ton of PvE content to make, or balance for. That shaves off a HUGE amount of time. Seriously. 3 years is plenty of time when they don't have to worry about PvE, balancing for PVP & PvE, loot drops, story, cutscenes, quests, all that, ectera.

Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  expresso

Tipster

Joined: 3/10/10
Posts: 2105

4/15/13 1:38:42 PM#35

People are backing this game thinking it will being back those feelings of those days when MMO's were new and you really had no idea what to expect.  You can re-create a game but you cannot re-create the feeling you had back then and 90% of backers are doing so thnking this game will re-create the feeling... it wont.

 

  will75

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/06
Posts: 267

4/15/13 1:48:19 PM#36
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Mkilbride
 
 

MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

 

As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

 

JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

 

So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

 

I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

 

I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

 

Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

 

Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

 

----------------------

 

In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

 

YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

 

With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

 
 

 I can still ask the same question.

How is it going to be any different now?

Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

But are we as players any different?

With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

There is a difference between a pve game and a pvp game in the terms of development.Do you know how long it takes to write all those encounters and mobs? All they have to do is focus on pvp.... 

NO ai is needed really except basic forms of the depths, which may or may not even be included in the game. So all they need to focus on is making the combat good, and making a reason for conflict. The COMMUNITY will make the content... eg... building.  And they will build their cities, they will have them torn down, they will need to rebuild. etc.. etc...

  will75

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/06
Posts: 267

4/15/13 1:53:17 PM#37
Originally posted by expresso

People are backing this game thinking it will being back those feelings of those days when MMO's were new and you really had no idea what to expect.  You can re-create a game but you cannot re-create the feeling you had back then and 90% of backers are doing so thnking this game will re-create the feeling... it wont.

 

 

I think this is partly true, but there is still people wanting something that's not being delivered to them, which is why they are backing this project. I guess there is a healthy amount of older people who want something different. If MJ was just going to give us the same BS that we've already seen, i wouldn't be interested. I want RVR DONE RIGHT.... That's it DONE RIGHT!  Will CU do it right? Maybe. 

Did guild wars 2 do RvR right ?

Has anything you've seen from TESO shown you they are doing RvR right?

The genre is dyinh because of clones :(  A breath of fresh air that doesn't do handholding is needed. I think MJ wants to do that, will he ? We'll know in a few years... hopefully . If not? Do you honestly think he will ever be able to get support again? This is all or nothing for Mark.I think he knows that.

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 4986

4/15/13 2:02:21 PM#38
Originally posted by will75
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Mkilbride
 
 

MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

 

As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

 

JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

 

So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

 

I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

 

I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

 

Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

 

Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

 

----------------------

 

In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

 

YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

 

With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

 
 

 I can still ask the same question.

How is it going to be any different now?

Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

But are we as players any different?

With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

There is a difference between a pve game and a pvp game in the terms of development.Do you know how long it takes to write all those encounters and mobs? All they have to do is focus on pvp.... 

NO ai is needed really except basic forms of the depths, which may or may not even be included in the game. So all they need to focus on is making the combat good, and making a reason for conflict. The COMMUNITY will make the content... eg... building.  And they will build their cities, they will have them torn down, they will need to rebuild. etc.. etc...

 So this game's persistent world will just be a static barren wasteland?

- No Flora and Fauna? No NPC's? No mobs?

- No resources for crafting to fight over in PVP?

How are people going to build buildings and cities then? Just out of thin Air?

What's the point of playing / PVP'ing in a persistent world, when there is no economy / no resources to fight over?

You see where I am trying to get at?

You don't necessarily have to have PVE content in form of missions/quests, dungeons, raids, etc.

But you still have to create a believing living virtial persisten world people can feel immersed in. And that requires NPC's (mobs, NPC's, whatever) and AI.

And if you want to have meaningfull PVP in form of Sieging cities. It would make sense those cities require resources to build and thus gives PVP a secondary objective to fight over: resources and thus also a form of crafting system.

We are maybe derailing a bit, but there is a reason why EVE Online has been so popular over the years tho.

Tho it never reached the heights it could have, due to  the missing "avatar" people can feel connected to, instead of just a ship that can be blown up and replaced every time.

If someone made an EVE Online in fantasy setting with "real" avatars..... oh boy oh boy! :-)

  Daimonion69

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 29

4/15/13 2:03:32 PM#39

First of all, i want to regard MJs active participation in this discussion. Not many developers would do that, because of the dirt that could get thrown on you. Imho, this shows his passion for the project and that alone gives me a positive feeling.

 

The mistakes made in the past are often mentioned, but what counts is, that those mistakes do not repeat and that there is an open ear, how to solve the problems in future. That open ear is given at least.

 

The big Problem in WAR was the PVP endgame, where too many compromises were made, to please dedicated players and casuals. In the end, both were pissed. In my opinion, EA hat a big part here.

For the pure PvP in WAR... speaking of mechanics and gameplay, i had really a lot of fun here.

 

And lastly for the F2P model. OOhh, i am a bit prejudiced here. There are of course some good and "honest" F2P titles.

But the generel problem of the F2P model is that the goal of the gamedesign is no longer the fun of the players, but to artificially create demands!

Its about earning money and about psychology. How to make ppl (and even worse kids) to spend small amounts of cash.

Ok, i could really run amok here... but as i said, there are still some "honest" ppl outside there, that still give you a good gaming experience.

  will75

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/06
Posts: 267

4/15/13 2:15:49 PM#40
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by will75
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Mkilbride
 
 

MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

 

As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

 

JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

 

So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

 

I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

 

I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

 

Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

 

Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

 

----------------------

 

In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

 

YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

 

With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

 
 

 I can still ask the same question.

How is it going to be any different now?

Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

But are we as players any different?

With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

There is a difference between a pve game and a pvp game in the terms of development.Do you know how long it takes to write all those encounters and mobs? All they have to do is focus on pvp.... 

NO ai is needed really except basic forms of the depths, which may or may not even be included in the game. So all they need to focus on is making the combat good, and making a reason for conflict. The COMMUNITY will make the content... eg... building.  And they will build their cities, they will have them torn down, they will need to rebuild. etc.. etc...

 So this game's persistent world will just be a static barren wasteland?

- No Flora and Fauna? No NPC's? No mobs?

- No resources for crafting to fight over in PVP?

How are people going to build buildings and cities then? Just out of thin Air?

What's the point of playing / PVP'ing in a persistent world, when there is no economy / no resources to fight over?

You see where I am trying to get at?

You don't necessarily have to have PVE content in form of missions/quests, dungeons, raids, etc.

But you still have to create a believing living virtial persisten world people can feel immersed in. And that requires NPC's (mobs, NPC's, whatever) and AI.

And if you want to have meaningfull PVP in form of Sieging cities. It would make sense those cities require resources to build and thus gives PVP a secondary objective to fight over: resources and thus also a form of crafting system.

We are maybe derailing a bit, but there is a reason why EVE Online has been so popular over the years tho.

Tho it never reached the heights it could have, due to  the missing "avatar" people can feel connected to, instead of just a ship that can be blown up and replaced every time.

If someone made an EVE Online in fantasy setting with "real" avatars..... oh boy oh boy! :-)

Sorry quick answer, have you read the wiki or watched all the videos read the information? Much of your questions are answered on how it will work, or supposed to work thus far. As for your final sentence.

In a perfect world. i wish the same, but there won't be any FFA pvp.. Well at least MJ said not right away, but it's always open as a maybe, that alone gets me excited, a lot of people thought how much andred/mordred were failures of a server. Some of my best DAOC memories are from those 2 servers.  Same with the FFA servers in AOC and UO etc .. etc.. Maybe world of darkness or whatever it is will be that game, but not fantasy...  I might not get FFA pvp. IF MJ is smart(my opinion of course), he looks at EvE successes and tries to incorporate them and his own new ideas

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