Trending Games | Elder Scrolls Online | World of Warcraft | EverQuest | WildStar

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,902,182 Users Online:0
Games:753  Posts:6,275,553
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Randomized Dungeons and Instances? Opinion away! ^^

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search
51 posts found
  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3545

4/14/13 3:14:40 PM#21
Ye its almost impossible to engage with random worlds, you just dont care or feel you are in a virtual world.  World 1 - there is a lone tower sitting on a cliff with a story associated with it.  World 2, has 399 randomly generated towers dotted randomly across a world.  Latter sounds horrific.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3755

RIP City of Heroes!

4/14/13 4:36:23 PM#22
Originally posted by JemAs666
My friends and I have been discussing this very thing for years.  There is no reason a Boss should not be able to roam around a dungeon and obliterate an un-prepared raid group killing trash.  The chance of adds in any encounter is what made EQ so appealing to me.  Then along came EQ2 and trashed that concept with pre-defined encounter pulls, etc.

 This is certainly something that should be added. City of Heroes had wondering mobs in their instances, bosses should be doable as well.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13597

4/14/13 4:48:12 PM#23
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Ye its almost impossible to engage with random worlds, you just dont care or feel you are in a virtual world.  World 1 - there is a lone tower sitting on a cliff with a story associated with it.  World 2, has 399 randomly generated towers dotted randomly across a world.  Latter sounds horrific.

To expand on what I said earlier, if you want to do a random world properly, you need to put as much work into it as you would a hand-done world.  Instead of making 50 zones by hand, you create 50 different probability distributions that you could generate a zone from.

-----

Really, though, the question isn't so much randomized versus not randomized.  Rather, game designers should constantly be thinking, can I randomize this little piece of the game without making it worse?  Sometimes the answer is "no".  But the answer should be "yes" a lot more often than most game designers are willing to do it.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3755

RIP City of Heroes!

4/14/13 4:54:36 PM#24
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Axehilt

It's not going to really solve every problem it claims to solve though. For example one of the "problems" solved is googled boss strategies, and yet you're going to end up with bosses who have "traits" basically, and there will be strategies for each trait -- and that's going to be up on the strategy websites within a week.

For that matter the tight balancing of non-random bosses is actually a very strong form of gameplay -- you actually need to adapt to the boss' abilities or you're going to lose -- while with randomized boss traits the average boss wouldn't be quite as challenging (to avoid the degenerate cases of bosses who are ridiculously too powerful, and since they provide the same randomized reward as any other boss players would just skip them.)

You're assuming that the randomization will be done in a particular way.  That is one way to do it, but it's hardly the only way.

Who says that you can only have a few options for a boss?  If you've got 50 different boss skills available, then picking 5 at random for a particular boss to have gives you over 2 million possible combinations right there.  If you want to restrict things to one from this category, one from that category, and so forth, you could still easily have many thousands of combinations.

Boss stats give you even more randomization possible.  You could set the sum of a boss's attributes and pick the attributes randomly such that they total that sum.  Or you could fix the sum of the squares of the attributes or whatever.

If you do only have a handful of particular random bosses available, then who says every boss has to give the same loot?  You could track which bosses usually get killed versus which ones usually get skipped, and give dramatically better loot for the latter.

 Random out of a pool might be interesting but a directed build based on what the groups abilities are might be more challenging.  You have a fire mage in the group - boss has anti-fire abilities.

As to loot, an idea I have been playing around with is a system where players get a number of slots to allocate to different loot types:  armor, weapon, potions, rings, crafting, etc.  In each slot, you can fill it with tokens that can affect the loot roll and the outcome. You get loot rolls when you defeat a boss and it acts like a slot machine.   You can bust and lose all your tokens.  The boss will random have types of loot when are matched against the loot slot allocation. 

Tokens might be something like:  plate helm RNG STRENGTH bonus +10%.  You  can get them from chests and crafters, perhaps quests/in game events.  The more tokens in a slot the higher the bust chance.  Powerful tokens increase bust chance.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2593

4/14/13 4:55:19 PM#25
It's been done in the past, by Dark age of Camelot and other games, and instanced dungeons really don't belong in MMORPGs, they fit more with Diablo style games.
  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3755

RIP City of Heroes!

4/14/13 4:55:55 PM#26
Originally posted by Scottgun
Originally posted by waynejr2

 

The problem is one of quality.  They look like random dungeons. 

^^THIS. Obviously random map generation is essential to 4x games like Civilization, but they are merely ok in tradtional dungeon crawlers like the Diablo series. They take on a samey-samey quality and it becomes a game of "find the door". "Oh look, it's over here in this map."

Of course I'm pretty down on instancing in general, so I'm biased, but if I had to have instances, I'd rather have them well-thought out, creative and semi-logical rather than slight variations of chaos.

 

"There is no reason a Boss should not be able to roam around a dungeon and obliterate an un-prepared raid group killing trash."

 

This is a good point and actually makes a case for designed instances. That is to say, when designing these durn things, design them as if the mobs inside actually lived there as opposed to just standing around waiting for the pull.

 The player base might not care about quality.  I was just suggesting it might.  In general, I think players mostly want the shortest path to the most powerful loot.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3545

4/14/13 5:51:43 PM#27

Thats true, loot is the superficial need, but the real goal of a game is enjoyable game play, waaay to much emphasis on the cheap fix of throwing loot at a game misses this point alltogether.   The best instances I have ever played have had a mixture of mobs and events which gives lots of scope for using all the skills you have frequently - fun and satisfaction ffrom playing your char.  Old wow instances are like that, GW1 instances, and to a lesser degree GW2 instances.  If you run through an instance and just spam a button and consider it meaningless then the instance failed. 

Re randomisation, as poster suggested above, it can be possible to have an instance that is carefully designed and feels unique but has randomised elements, expensive to develope but rewarding.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/14/13 6:49:07 PM#28
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Scottgun
Originally posted by waynejr2

 

The problem is one of quality.  They look like random dungeons. 

^^THIS. Obviously random map generation is essential to 4x games like Civilization, but they are merely ok in tradtional dungeon crawlers like the Diablo series. They take on a samey-samey quality and it becomes a game of "find the door". "Oh look, it's over here in this map."

Of course I'm pretty down on instancing in general, so I'm biased, but if I had to have instances, I'd rather have them well-thought out, creative and semi-logical rather than slight variations of chaos.

Who says that randomly generated zones have to be instanced?  Who says you can't have a thousand (or a million!) randomly generated zones linked together to make an enormous open world?

You could, however it wouldn't work in a 'real' MMO as it would just seem like a crappy world compared to a planned one. As a result, many of the advocates of it would probably dismiss it once it was in an MMO that strayed from what they consider right and proper design.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13597

4/14/13 8:05:59 PM#29
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Scottgun
Originally posted by waynejr2

 

The problem is one of quality.  They look like random dungeons. 

^^THIS. Obviously random map generation is essential to 4x games like Civilization, but they are merely ok in tradtional dungeon crawlers like the Diablo series. They take on a samey-samey quality and it becomes a game of "find the door". "Oh look, it's over here in this map."

Of course I'm pretty down on instancing in general, so I'm biased, but if I had to have instances, I'd rather have them well-thought out, creative and semi-logical rather than slight variations of chaos.

Who says that randomly generated zones have to be instanced?  Who says you can't have a thousand (or a million!) randomly generated zones linked together to make an enormous open world?

You could, however it wouldn't work in a 'real' MMO as it would just seem like a crappy world compared to a planned one. As a result, many of the advocates of it would probably dismiss it once it was in an MMO that strayed from what they consider right and proper design.

What's not an MMO about that?  You'd stick every single player in the entire game in a single enormous world, without having multiple instances of any area of the game.  If you get more players, you add more zones to make a bigger world yet.  You could make it completely seamless, too.  If that's not "massively multiplayer", then there is no such thing.  And it's trivially online.

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/14/13 8:24:23 PM#30
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Scottgun
Originally posted by waynejr2

 

The problem is one of quality.  They look like random dungeons. 

^^THIS. Obviously random map generation is essential to 4x games like Civilization, but they are merely ok in tradtional dungeon crawlers like the Diablo series. They take on a samey-samey quality and it becomes a game of "find the door". "Oh look, it's over here in this map."

Of course I'm pretty down on instancing in general, so I'm biased, but if I had to have instances, I'd rather have them well-thought out, creative and semi-logical rather than slight variations of chaos.

Who says that randomly generated zones have to be instanced?  Who says you can't have a thousand (or a million!) randomly generated zones linked together to make an enormous open world?

You could, however it wouldn't work in a 'real' MMO as it would just seem like a crappy world compared to a planned one. As a result, many of the advocates of it would probably dismiss it once it was in an MMO that strayed from what they consider right and proper design.

What's not an MMO about that?  You'd stick every single player in the entire game in a single enormous world, without having multiple instances of any area of the game.  If you get more players, you add more zones to make a bigger world yet.  You could make it completely seamless, too.  If that's not "massively multiplayer", then there is no such thing.  And it's trivially online.

I didn't say it isn't an MMO or that it isn't massively multiplayer. I said your idea would work in an MMO, but not in the standard EQ/WOW style MMO. In a scripted world MMORPG, a randomly generated zone would be rather lackluster or even incomplete when compared to a dev-crafted, scripted zone of planned content created for a specific purpose.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13597

4/14/13 8:30:07 PM#31

Quantity has a quality all its own.  Which is the point of randomization, after all.

But to repeat what I said earlier, it's not a matter of you randomize things or else you don't.  Rather, it's a question of what exactly you decide to randomize and how you decide to randomize it.

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/14/13 8:33:57 PM#32
Originally posted by Quizzical

Really, though, the question isn't so much randomized versus not randomized.  Rather, game designers should constantly be thinking, can I randomize this little piece of the game without making it worse?  Sometimes the answer is "no".  But the answer should be "yes" a lot more often than most game designers are willing to do it.

Everyone's job looks easy to someone who doesn't know what the job entails. ;)

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13597

4/14/13 8:51:53 PM#33

Don't forget that I'm working on not merely randomly generating a game world, but randomly generating all of the artwork for it, too.  So naturally, I think that a lot more things should be randomized than most people.  But not loot; random loot is stupid.

Everything in the universe is random; it's only a question of random with what probability distribution.  This outcome with probability 1 and all others with probability 0 is a perfectly good probability distribution.  I think that trying for it is done too much, though.

Incidentally, tessellation in its purest form is procedurally generated vertex data.  While it can be used for the geometrically intuitive approach of subdivisions of simplicial complexes, that's hardly the only possible use.  If you want to do procedurally generated anything that the GPU needs to be aware of, tessellation is likely to make it a whole lot easier.

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/14/13 9:10:13 PM#34
Originally posted by Quizzical

Don't forget that I'm working on not merely randomly generating a game world, but randomly generating all of the artwork for it, too. 

I don't doubt you can create a random zone and use a lot of jargon when talking about it.

I am simply addressing your various statements on the matter:


"Who says that randomly generated zones have to be instanced?  Who says you can't have a thousand (or a million!) randomly generated zones linked together to make an enormous open world?"

"You'd stick every single player in the entire game in a single enormous world, without having multiple instances of any area of the game.  If you get more players, you add more zones to make a bigger world yet."

"But the answer should be "yes" a lot more often than most game designers are willing to do it."

 

My response is that you could probably do that for something other than your typical EQ/WOW style MMO. In those games, what you suggest, would either create a lackluster environment, an environment with little relevance, or an environment that would require so much post work that it would be the same as crafting it manually to begin with.

I'm speaking from my experiences working directly with team members that create game worlds for a living. It's not that  limitless worlds of amazingly procedurally generated awesomeness don't exist because of some kind of dev resistance to doing it. There's reasons that devs don't do it, especially in massively multiplayer RPGs where the absence or deficiency of narrative, scene management and a host of other aspects (pathing, traffic, fidelity, etc) become very apparent very quickly.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13597

4/14/13 9:14:53 PM#35

I'm not arguing that game developers should usually make randomly generated zones for an entire zone.  While I'd like to see that done more than it is, I wouldn't want to see every game do that for its entire game world.

But little things like randomizing a mob's spawn point slightly (e.g., this mob will spawn at a random point within 30 feet of here) or randomly picking which mob will spawn out of several possible can help a lot.  Some games already do those things to some degree--and entirely within the context of a traditional MMORPG--but I'd like to see them done more.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

4/14/13 10:41:40 PM#36
Originally posted by Scottgun
 

^^THIS. Obviously random map generation is essential to 4x games like Civilization, but they are merely ok in tradtional dungeon crawlers like the Diablo series. They take on a samey-samey quality and it becomes a game of "find the door". "Oh look, it's over here in this map."

Actually in D3, the interesting part of the randomization is not so much of the random layout of the dungeon, but the randomly generated elite/champions.

If they roll the "right" abilities, the fight can be extremely challenging, even if you have good gear. And the nice thing is ... different combinations of abilities are challenging to different classes.

 

 

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/15/13 12:33:00 AM#37
Originally posted by Quizzical

You're assuming that the randomization will be done in a particular way.  That is one way to do it, but it's hardly the only way.

Who says that you can only have a few options for a boss?  If you've got 50 different boss skills available, then picking 5 at random for a particular boss to have gives you over 2 million possible combinations right there.  If you want to restrict things to one from this category, one from that category, and so forth, you could still easily have many thousands of combinations.

Boss stats give you even more randomization possible.  You could set the sum of a boss's attributes and pick the attributes randomly such that they total that sum.  Or you could fix the sum of the squares of the attributes or whatever.

If you do only have a handful of particular random bosses available, then who says every boss has to give the same loot?  You could track which bosses usually get killed versus which ones usually get skipped, and give dramatically better loot for the latter.

Nobody said anything about "only a few options".  D3 has 24 traits and probably about as many monster types, which have variations on the core stats (damage/health) and inherit a random combination of the traits (molten, jailor, etc).  I'm sure it results in far more than 2 million combinations, but the strategies written for D3 only have to worry about describing those ~50 core pieces.

Honestly D3 shows how easily randomized content can break in two completely different directions regarding strategy websites.  On one hand, once you've written a strategic overview of the 50 components, you've written an overview for the entire game.  On the other hand, the tactics you'd learn from that page will only matter when you're facing mobs right at the Balance Sweet Spot: fights where player skill is the difference between success and failure.  But due largely to monster randomization (and also loot randomization), you're almost never in the Balance Sweet Spot and skill is largely irrelevant because you're either going to faceroll the mob or be utterly destroyed (or have a very long and tedious fight.)

Which is sort of a shame, because if there wasn't any progression to Diablo 3 and you were always in the sweet spot, the monster design and some of the traits are actually really well done.  But they virtually never get a chance to play out as intended.

As for the dynamic loot thing, I thought of that too but avoided mentioning it.  It could indeed work.  But it's a very dangerous decision.  Basically you make a design decision to implement a complicated and hard-to-balance system (randomization) and then commit to a second complicated and hard-to-balance system (dynamic loot adjustment) just to try to get things right.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 746

4/15/13 12:34:51 AM#38
F instances. F them to hell!! ALL OF THEM
  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

4/15/13 1:46:21 AM#39
Originally posted by Deleted User

http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Missions

still waiting my DM v.2.0 ,maybe Ultima Online 2 can do it.

 

The problem with the AO missions is that there were only a couple of mission types and the setpieces were so few that every "random" mission looked virtually the same as every other one.  It wasn't all that random either, there were standard mission builds which rarely deviated all that much, plus the mobs were pretty much predictable, it was the same mobs over and over and over and over.

Plus the fact, to get the highest tokenboards, you had to run over 1000 missions, which was an absurd grind.

I'd want something much, much better.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

4/15/13 3:19:45 AM#40

If start a mmo that have random dungeons it would be very strange who change them some unknown force a godlike person who have power to completely change dungeosn would be awkward i say and unrealistic the least.

Make dungeons so that if you kill mobs inside there gone forever but other mobs or npcs can populate this dungeon see it as there new home.

Make dynamic system where npc's and mobs roam arround can also change game world build things.

So when you next time enter a dungeon suddenly totally different npc's or mobs took as there new habitat.

Improve AI make npc's and mobs more creative so they also can change enviroment to there liking.

Real Dynamic game world with superb AI is what we need.

Not simple and boring predictable randomizing.

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search