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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Baby-duck syndrome?

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29 posts found
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5373

I dare you to pin a label on me.

 
OP  4/12/13 10:03:58 AM#1

"Baby duck syndrome

In human–computer interaction, baby duck syndrome denotes the tendency for computer users to "imprint" on the first system they learn, then judge other systems by their similarity to that first system. The result is that users generally prefer systems similar to those they learned on and dislike unfamiliar systems. The issue may present itself relatively early in a computer user's experience, and has been observed to impede education of students in new software systems."

-Wikipedia

Do you think this is relevant to MMORPGs? Do you think it affects the sales of MMORPGs which go "off the beaten path" such as using no trinity?

Oh, and if this peaked your interest: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-cranky50/index.html

Do you suffer from baby duck syndrome?

Yes
Not anymore
No
I admit to nothing!
(login to vote)

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Karteli

Elite Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

4/12/13 10:10:43 AM#2

Some advancements are just garbage compared to their predecessors.

 

In your OS example, I found DOS far superior to Windows 3.1, which was ackward, very slow, and clunky.  OS changed some in 95, and by Windows 98, a pretty good OS was there that was responsive, clean, and organized.  So I actually embraced the transition from DOS to versions of current Windows that some use today.

 

Removing the trinity just makes for an awkward gameplay, while taking away a persons individual usefullness to a group.  If someone isn't important, then there is no need to participate in group content, which lends more to the casuals or socially challenged, who would rather play their single player MMORPG and have minimal direct communication.

 

It could improve somehow, I just haven't seen a very good model of no-trinity yet.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  BrucyBonus

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 224

4/12/13 10:14:16 AM#3
Originally posted by Quirhid

"Baby duck syndrome

In human–computer interaction, baby duck syndrome denotes the tendency for computer users to "imprint" on the first system they learn, then judge other systems by their similarity to that first system. The result is that users generally prefer systems similar to those they learned on and dislike unfamiliar systems. The issue may present itself relatively early in a computer user's experience, and has been observed to impede education of students in new software systems."

-Wikipedia

Do you think this is relevant to MMORPGs? Do you think it affects the sales of MMORPGs which go "off the beaten path" such as using no trinity?

Oh, and if this peaked your interest: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-cranky50/index.html

People all think in a similar vein and find similar solutions to the same problem.  It is why pyramids were built quite separately on three continents; it is simply the easiest way to build a large structure without modern technology, and does not in any way indicate that aliens have landed.  

Likewise with OS and MMO's, people find the simplest solution to a problem and that usually works.  Why change things that work well? 

  Rthuth434

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 367

4/12/13 10:14:16 AM#4
Originally posted by Karteli

Some advancements are just garbage compared to their predecessors.

 

In your OS example, I found DOS far superior to Windows 3.1, which was ackward, very slow, and clunky.  OS changed some in 95, and by Windows 98, a pretty good OS was there that was responsive, clean, and organized.  So I actually embraced the transition from DOS to versions of current Windows that some use today.

 

Removing the trinity just makes for an awkward gameplay, while taking away a persons individual usefullness to a group.  If someone isn't important, then there is no need to participate in group content, which lends more to the casuals or socially challenged, who would rather play their single player MMORPG and have minimal direct communication.

 

so answer yes, and your momma duck was WoW, because the trinity was not in most MMORPG's until then. even EQ had more than 3 necessary roles in combat. most others had character variation and no set roles at all.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 12772

4/12/13 10:15:58 AM#5

My first game console was an Atari 7800.  I remember it, but not that fondly.  The NES that I got later was a lot better.  The best console game I played was Tecmo Super Bowl, which wouldn't come until several years later.

My first online game was Chain of Command.  It had a lot of potential, but never came close to reaching it.  The game was a buggy mess, including many bugs that could be exploited to cheat.  Some could even be triggered accidentally by people who had no intention of cheating.  In a purely PVP game, that's very bad.

My first MMORPG was Runescape, which is still the worst MMORPG I've played.  I'm sure that a lot of worse games have been created, but I learned how to pick them out from reading the web page and then not play them.  The best MMORPG that I played was Guild Wars (1, not 2), which wouldn't come until a few years later.

I think that a lot of people do have baby-duck syndrome and remember their first game as being the best or something like that.  I think that's even a substantial part of why WoW is so popular:  it managed to be the first MMORPG for an awful lot of people.  But it doesn't seem to have that effect on me.

To me, for a game to go off the beaten path is a good thing, not a bad thing.  Non-trinity combat is a good start, but that's not very far off the beaten path.  A Tale in the Desert or Uncharted Waters Online go much further off the beaten path by making games not primarily about combat at all.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 2888

For the Queen!

4/12/13 10:16:36 AM#6

I started playing games on my Atari 2600, so maybe I'm not a stickler for super graphics like younger players are, but overall I tend to look at one thing when it comes to gaming.  Is it fun?  If I'm having fun, then it's a good game for me.  It could be the buggiest thing since A Bug's Life, but like Skyrim, if I'm having fun, who cares? 

 

Edit: Flying Horsies WEEEEEEE!

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5373

I dare you to pin a label on me.

 
OP  4/12/13 10:18:46 AM#7
Originally posted by Karteli

Removing the trinity just makes for an awkward gameplay, while taking away a persons individual usefullness to a group.  If someone isn't important, then there is no need to participate in group content, which lends more to the casuals or socially challenged, who would rather play their single player MMORPG and have minimal direct communication.

What if I said that none of that was true? -That it is simply just another form of gameplay, with different party roles, -dynamics and encounter design?

 

I know I played atleast half a dozen MMORPGs before finding something which I even remotely enjoyed. And I have never liked the trinity from the first minute I experienced it.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5373

I dare you to pin a label on me.

 
OP  4/12/13 10:28:06 AM#8
Originally posted by Quizzical

To me, for a game to go off the beaten path is a good thing, not a bad thing.  Non-trinity combat is a good start, but that's not very far off the beaten path.  A Tale in the Desert or Uncharted Waters Online go much further off the beaten path by making games not primarily about combat at all.

Oh I'm definitely with you on that one.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Karteli

Elite Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

4/12/13 10:40:51 AM#9
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Karteli

Removing the trinity just makes for an awkward gameplay, while taking away a persons individual usefullness to a group.  If someone isn't important, then there is no need to participate in group content, which lends more to the casuals or socially challenged, who would rather play their single player MMORPG and have minimal direct communication.

What if I said that none of that was true? -That it is simply just another form of gameplay, with different party roles, -dynamics and encounter design?

 

I know I played atleast half a dozen MMORPGs before finding something which I even remotely enjoyed. And I have never liked the trinity from the first minute I experienced it.

Change isn't necessarily a bad thing, but changing just for the sake of changing won't always yield positive results.

 

Gameplay does change with no trinity, but the lack of distinct roles also diminishes the value of the term RPG for me.  I wouldn't be against a new acronym for no-trinity style games though, as they can be fun for action / console style gaming.

 

The evolution of gaming includes many giant leaps of gameplay, along with the value someone might get.  It's more personal taste I think, rather than a resistence to change.  Baby Duck Syndrome does exist, but it's not the end-all term to describe why someone doesn't like a lack of trinity.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/12/13 11:16:25 AM#10

Think it's pretty well-known around here by now that I tried and disliked many early MMORPGs (though I missed a couple of the main ones.)

While I found usually interesting things to like with each game (Asheron Call's progression system, Anarchy Online's theme), overall they were bad games compared with the non-MMORPGs at the time.

Also I don't much attachment to Frogger (first game played), and have only as much attachment to other things as they deserved for being some of the earlier entries into their respective spaces: C64 (first system), Ultima 3 (first RPG), Wolf3D (first (?) FPS), Warcraft 1 (early RTS), and Civilization (early-ish TBS).  I don't overly praise any of those games, but give them credit for forging paths to the much better games that followed in their wake.  Sorta like how I give credit to EQ1/UO for getting MMORPGs going, even though I'm not sure I would've liked them much better than the early MMORPGs I did try.

  Lucjan

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/03
Posts: 2

4/12/13 12:23:31 PM#11
I don't believe this syndrome really applies to MMORPGs, but I believe there is something that can be easily mistaken for it. 
I don't think people have a problem with a game being different, following a different set of rules or even putting their entire belief system up-side-down. What I think is the problem that gamers want to have a familiar entry into a game so they don't have to learn the basics from scratch. After that, the game could introduce them to the craziest systems and mechanics, as long as they make sense and are meaningful.
 
 
You could have a game that has no group enforcement, no holy trinity, do away with character levels etc. and people will like it once they get to know it. However, take that same game and change the game entry by having movement and interactions done is some completely different and unfamiliar manner and most people will hate it. They won't get to know the actual game, the things that are great about it, because they get stuck right at the start and will transfer their dislike onto the entire game.
 

I believe it has just more to do with gamers that simply got tired of learning the basics over and over again a couple of years ago.

 

Shameless plug alert!

No point & click, no holy trinity, no classes, no character levels in a MMORPG: Grimlands. 

 

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3431

4/12/13 12:57:00 PM#12

I think you're onto something, although maybe not what you think.  There  are a lot of people who are so utterly imprinted on the concept of MMOs that they are unable to play anything else and they are unable to stop playing MMOs even though they claim to hate every single MMO out there.  They're simply not capable of walking away and finding something else to do, their entire gaming lives revolve around this one genre of games and then, around a subset of games that really don't even exist today.

That's not a healthy behavior.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

4/12/13 2:11:15 PM#13

Look no further than peripherals as an example of this phenomenon.  When the Wiimote was introduced, people dismissed it as a gimmick rather than an advance in technology.  Yet at the same time, PC gamers are happy to play on their keyboard and mouse, even though the keyboard is based on the technology that brought us the typewriter.  It's a horrid peripheral for gaming, but people who grew up with it are often averse to learning anything else, just like QWERTY is a horrid keyboard layout, but people still use it because of the ubiquity and familiarity.  I've even talked to some PC gamers who argue that the point and click aiming mechanics of the mouse are just like aiming with console peripherals, which is like arguing that the aiming you do with your hand to pick up a gun is the same as aiming a gun at a target. 

Really, this is a pretty well known occurrence in user experience design--websites, for example, tend to use the same format because they know that if you have to think for even 1 second about where to find something, you might just leave instead.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/12/13 3:39:36 PM#14
Originally posted by Everwest

Look no further than peripherals as an example of this phenomenon.  When the Wiimote was introduced, people dismissed it as a gimmick rather than an advance in technology.  Yet at the same time, PC gamers are happy to play on their keyboard and mouse, even though the keyboard is based on the technology that brought us the typewriter.  It's a horrid peripheral for gaming, but people who grew up with it are often averse to learning anything else, just like QWERTY is a horrid keyboard layout, but people still use it because of the ubiquity and familiarity.  I've even talked to some PC gamers who argue that the point and click aiming mechanics of the mouse are just like aiming with console peripherals, which is like arguing that the aiming you do with your hand to pick up a gun is the same as aiming a gun at a target. 

Really, this is a pretty well known occurrence in user experience design--websites, for example, tend to use the same format because they know that if you have to think for even 1 second about where to find something, you might just leave instead.

Critcizing a keyboard as sort of a clunky peripheral I could maybe understand, and QWERTY is known to be clunky by design.

But are you really criticizing Mouse (and Trackball) compared with a Controller for FPS (or other camera-heavy) gaming?  Seriously?  The very nature of games with a 1:1 mapping of motion-to-angle is superior to controllers, which are forced to use a motion-to-rotation-speed mapping.  Point A on my mousing surface is always Angle A.  Point A on my controller is just "turn right fast", and who knows where that'll take me.

  Grunty

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/06/04
Posts: 6651

4/12/13 8:08:24 PM#15

M R Duks 
       
M R Not 
       
M R Too 
       
C M Wangs 
       
L I B...M R Duks

 

My first games were text parsers. 

> I don't understand. Please restate this.

 >.<

>I don't understand. Please restate this.

Look 

>Look at what?

AGGgGGGGggghhhhhhhh

>Your torch has burned out. You have been eaten by a Grue.

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 295

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

4/12/13 11:13:41 PM#16
I'm sure it applies in some way, what I'd like to know is what systems I've learned that form my own thought, and how to improve them.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  Madimorga

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1780

4/13/13 12:51:31 AM#17

Abso-freakin-lutely.

 

My first MMO was Anarchy Online.  Ever since I've wandered around every game world with a part of me whining:

 

What do you mean I can't twink out my character and kill mobs a hundred levels higher than me? 

What do you mean there are only 80 levels?  Pah!  Ridiculous!

Fantasy?  So tired of fantasy.

Where is my apartment and why aren't the mobs dropping decoratives for it?

What is with this constant questing BS and why does that guy have punctuation over his head?

Where are my awesome pet classes?  And why can't this stupid pet hold aggro?

Why can't I turn into a giant two headed dog-thing and go bounding around in first person camera?

What is with this tiny skill tree bullcrap and why does this game automatically increase my stats without asking?  Why can't I just choose where to put every single individual point in various attributes and skills?

Why can't I fly around in a personal jet plane or float over it with mystical MP-type powers?  Are the other devs so lazy they can only make things from a ground point of view?   

Oh, and kiting.  If you ever played an NT you will understand the sheer inferiority of all other types of kiting in all other MMOs.

 

I miss Anarchy Online.  

 

 

 

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

4/13/13 1:57:03 AM#18

For the most part I'm not against new things as long as they are easy to pick up and learn, but most importantly they make sense.

But since someone at Microsoft has found it necessary to turn my desktop computer into some hybrid-computer-tablet-thing with Windows 8 I'm a bit frustrated right now lol.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

4/13/13 2:49:18 AM#19
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Everwest

Look no further than peripherals as an example of this phenomenon.  When the Wiimote was introduced, people dismissed it as a gimmick rather than an advance in technology.  Yet at the same time, PC gamers are happy to play on their keyboard and mouse, even though the keyboard is based on the technology that brought us the typewriter.  It's a horrid peripheral for gaming, but people who grew up with it are often averse to learning anything else, just like QWERTY is a horrid keyboard layout, but people still use it because of the ubiquity and familiarity.  I've even talked to some PC gamers who argue that the point and click aiming mechanics of the mouse are just like aiming with console peripherals, which is like arguing that the aiming you do with your hand to pick up a gun is the same as aiming a gun at a target. 

Really, this is a pretty well known occurrence in user experience design--websites, for example, tend to use the same format because they know that if you have to think for even 1 second about where to find something, you might just leave instead.

Critcizing a keyboard as sort of a clunky peripheral I could maybe understand, and QWERTY is known to be clunky by design.

But are you really criticizing Mouse (and Trackball) compared with a Controller for FPS (or other camera-heavy) gaming?  Seriously?  The very nature of games with a 1:1 mapping of motion-to-angle is superior to controllers, which are forced to use a motion-to-rotation-speed mapping.  Point A on my mousing surface is always Angle A.  Point A on my controller is just "turn right fast", and who knows where that'll take me.

I'm not criticizing the mouse as a peripheral--I think it's actually a good peripheral (though I think touchpads can generally be better, and we'll eventually have the technology of 1:1 motion mapping in 3D).  However, when used as the targeting peripheral in an FPS/3PS, it does not constitute "aiming" the way a controller or WASD alignment of the scope's reticule does.

Aiming by definition requires some interaction which is not 1:1.  It's the difference between bowling with a ball and going up to the pins and kicking them over.  For me, mouse targeting ruins the effect of action/shooter mechanics.

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

4/13/13 3:12:47 AM#20

I disagree with calling it a syndrome.  It's not something one "suffers" from.  It's simply a part of human nature to have your tastes heavily influenced by your early experiences, whether it's art, music, love or games.

 

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