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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » F2P Model heading for disaster an "apocalypse" in 3-5 years

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313 posts found
  dgarbini

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/05
Posts: 186

4/12/13 8:03:30 PM#141
The problem isnt f2p, b2p, p2p, the problem is poorly implimented cash shops.  Which are extremely prevasive in this game market today.  Hell they are even in single player games now.  I really dont see them just disappearing in 3-5 years and honestly dont think the man knows at all what he is talking about.  I appreciate he is doing some bold statments to generate publicity for his little game but its just hot air.  I'd gladly see bad cash shops go and the practices around them, but thinking that subscription will come back is just nonsense.  Someone earlier mentioned value for money, lets be honest no matter how much you pay or how, none of us are getting decent value for money anymore, that is the problem with the game industry.  When they start respecting/appreciating their customers and stop trying to cheat or screw them at every turn, that will fix the industry.  And no subscriptions will not accomplish that.
  Drakephire

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 443

4/12/13 8:03:39 PM#142

Sorry, but MJ is mistaken and, frankly, stuck in the past.

 

Players like f2p because it allows them to buy only the content they want. Developers like MJ like the idea of a large player base subsidizing the gameplay of a small percentage of people.

 

When f2p developers actually listen to their customers and offer more granularity in their content offerings, their titles will do better.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2909

4/12/13 8:30:33 PM#143
Originally posted by kjempff

It will become a common fact that certain f2p models based on shop items alone is a hoax, and most will simply stop playing those games.. not exclusively for that reason, but also because there will emerge more fair models that will draw players. Players will become (actually already are) f2p surfers who jump to the next game whenever they hit the free limit. Once you start hearing of whales (or become one of them) who spend unreasonable amounts on a game, you will start to steer clear of those type of games and search for games that you have a more clear idea of the actual cost of playing.

Free to download and try is here to stay, but most games can't survive on whaling alone.

 I'm sorry but people jump from sub to sub all the time too ( myself included juggled 2-3 different subscription games). F2P just allows the customer to have more choice and freedom in the games they play. Which is something I don't like about subscription games because you're essentially wasting money if you don't play it all the time.

 As for the whaling, I disagree. MMO's are inexpensive today and developers have been putting this misconception into peoples minds for far to long. So yes, a game could indeed live off of whaling; so long as the players have enough content to back it up. Which leads back to what I've been saying for several posts now. If the game isn't good people won't stay. People need to feel connected to their character and the world they play in. Otherwise the character they make is just another character with no special bond.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Tatercake

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 286

LET GO OF MY NUTS

4/12/13 8:35:40 PM#144
have you actualy played a free  games people are spending money like crazy on them  you all that love the old sub style its done over we the gamers are tired of paying subs some of you stillenjoy it i do not i like paying for the game then playing it no aditional fees buy to play is the  best all around for the gamer but free to play  get this when i want to is not bad not at all 
  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1794

4/12/13 8:38:41 PM#145

He isn't really a impartial source is he?  His game will live or die by the williness of people to buy a sub so he has a great deal of interest in F2P being unsustainable.

Having said that I do think that we will see a crash of sorts where anything released F2P makes money.  Quality and pricing model will start to matter more within the next couple years as the market gets saturated.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/12/13 8:39:26 PM#146
Originally posted by Hjamnr

None of those had actual RvR.  

RvR requires a minimum of 3 factions.   To do it properly, they cannot be "mirrored" factions, either.  RvR is persistent.  There is no instancing in RvR.  Factions cannot speak to each other in RvR.  There is no FFA pvp in RvR.

Warhammer, Rift: 2 factions, some instancing.

GW2's WvWvW is 2 week long instanced arenas, with mirrored classes and races.

1. RvR requires 2 factions.

2. RvRvR requires 3 factions.

3. "Properly" is one thing to one person, another to someone else. Stop speaking as if there is one be all, end all way.

4.  Persistent, instancing, speaking to each other or FFA has nothing to do with the RvR, those are limitations/additions of gameplay created by a developer. Same with magically closed off faction lands safe from opposing factions.

5. So, a realm cannot fight another realm if they are the same? Really? There must be a clear difference? Sounds like someone bought into the BS that if races are the same, people will get all confused and not be able to "fight" cause they dont know who the enemy is..

 

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2909

4/12/13 8:41:20 PM#147
Originally posted by dgarbini
The problem isnt f2p, b2p, p2p, the problem is poorly implimented cash shops.  Which are extremely prevasive in this game market today.  Hell they are even in single player games now.  I really dont see them just disappearing in 3-5 years and honestly dont think the man knows at all what he is talking about.  I appreciate he is doing some bold statments to generate publicity for his little game but its just hot air.  I'd gladly see bad cash shops go and the practices around them, but thinking that subscription will come back is just nonsense.  Someone earlier mentioned value for money, lets be honest no matter how much you pay or how, none of us are getting decent value for money anymore, that is the problem with the game industry.  When they start respecting/appreciating their customers and stop trying to cheat or screw them at every turn, that will fix the industry.  And no subscriptions will not accomplish that.

 They are some pretty bold statements, however he's only making speculation that has no supporting evidence to back it up. I'm quite interested in seeing if he even responds to my posts. Because, at this point in time no one has corrected me in saying that a F2P/B2P/P2P is any better/worse. Live I've said, if you can't connect a player to the world or the character they've created those costumers won't stay long. 

 He is only stating that he's going to do an RvR game solely for PvP which is great and all. But if there's no incentive behind every last bit there's no point to play it and it's just a larger glorified version of GW 2's RvR system. Which I don't believe is enough to keep costumers coming back for more. Sure, you'll have a very small community of players willing to stick which might keep the game alive for a good time. But if the only thing he has to offer is the standard RvR experience it won't last.

 People who are thinking of investing in MJ and his project also have to take in the fact that if the game struggles and is forced to make the F2P decision he'll shut it down rather that surcome to another model. Which is down right wrong and quite laughable from a business standpoint (If he did not actually say this disregard the statement). 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2909

4/12/13 8:42:36 PM#148
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Hjamnr

None of those had actual RvR.  

RvR requires a minimum of 3 factions.   To do it properly, they cannot be "mirrored" factions, either.  RvR is persistent.  There is no instancing in RvR.  Factions cannot speak to each other in RvR.  There is no FFA pvp in RvR.

Warhammer, Rift: 2 factions, some instancing.

GW2's WvWvW is 2 week long instanced arenas, with mirrored classes and races.

1. RvR requires 2 factions.

2. RvRvR requires 3 factions.

3. "Properly" is one thing to one person, another to someone else. Stop speaking as if there is one be all, end all way.

4.  Persistent, instancing, speaking to each other or FFA has nothing to do with the RvR, those are limitations/additions of gameplay created by a developer. Same with magically closed off faction lands safe from opposing factions.

5. So, a realm cannot fight another realm if they are the same? Really? There must be a clear difference? Sounds like someone bought into the BS that if races are the same, people will get all confused and not be able to "fight" cause they dont know who the enemy is..

 

 Thanks for trying to clarify RvR for me, I didn't want to bother with adding any additional information to this guys statement.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2909

4/12/13 8:44:07 PM#149
Originally posted by Tatercake
have you actualy played a free  games people are spending money like crazy on them  you all that love the old sub style its done over we the gamers are tired of paying subs some of you stillenjoy it i do not i like paying for the game then playing it no aditional fees buy to play is the  best all around for the gamer but free to play  get this when i want to is not bad not at all 

 I can completely agree with a B2P model. At least I'm forced to spend some money. However, an MMO should no longer REQUIRE a customer to pay a subscription for them. Gaming is no longer in the age where consoles / computers are overly expensive this includes servers as well.

 Why is it that I have to pay $60.00 + $15.00 monthly for a game like World of Warcraft. When I can play games like Assassins creed, Minecraft, Call of duty, Gears of War, etc. which all have full online capablilities with no subscriptions attached?

 Subscriptions don't promote better communities, the comapanies don't treat their potential customers any better than any other MMO (depends on company). It's just an out of date model that needs to die off.

“Camelot Unchained is going to be a niche subscription game,”  - MJ

“so we eliminate the vast majority of people who won’t subscribe to this game, those who might say ‘Oh no I’m not going to pay a subscription, I want free-to-play.’ That’s just great because by getting rid of them, we say ‘We get it. You don’t want free-to-play, that’s fine. Go away’. - MJ

Great job alienating your potential player-base before the game even enters the developement  stages.

“That then allows us to focus our game on the people who want to pay for it, and are willing to pay for it. I’ll take a smaller subscription base that is dedicated, is energised and is excited to play our game, and to work with our game, than ten times that base where I have to deal with a lot of people who really don’t care. - MJ

People DO care about the games they play. It's the companies that treat their customers like trash (points at MJ) that we don't care about. Percisely why I dislike you MJ. You developed a game like Warhammer Online. You and your company utterly ignored the customers outcries when the game was not properly working. We wanted to help you make it good!

“They’re just looking for the next free game, who are going to complain about it a lot, even though they’re not spending any money, who will feel they can say and do whatever they want because – who cares? It’s a free game – so you ban them. Whoopee. -MJ

Is it our fault that we go from game to game regardles of F2P/P2P/B2P because of the fact that it has not met our standards? No, that' falls in the hands of the developers.

When we say such feature sucks. Don't take offense to it. Take it as constructive criticism to fix the issues at hand. Because once again we're the paying customers who want to see the best that the game can be.

“So they create an a new account, come back and start doing the same thing. No, I’ll leave that to the big publishers who want to have fun in that space, and who will make their money in the short-term, and I’ll happily take my smaller subscriber base who wants this game, and together we’ll make it something special.” - MJ

You really like digging your own grave don't you? Once again, here's another example of an arrogant developer who's more than willing to piss on their customer base bacuse they can't take criticism about their game. Sure there are those few people who do cause trouble and there are ways to stop them from ever returning to your game. It's called IP/MAC banning and trust me, it works well.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Golelorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1125

4/12/13 8:48:53 PM#150
Just like MJ missed with ToA, NF, and Warhammer he is wrong about this, too.
  Dren_Utogi

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1682

4/12/13 9:59:04 PM#151
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by Mkilbride

 

He also said that, if the game is in a state where it has to go F2P...he's shutting it down.

THis really the wrong attiude and something that kills games when a developer speaks.

LotrO had been running all server , without merging , with healthy populations for years. Then they did DDo which also had an impressive following before free to play mmove, after free to play they added servers.

 What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute.

Turbine is doing extremely well in that regard, SOE as well.

SO what Mark Jacobs is telling his fans of CU, I would rather have a limited number of players, make them spend 9.99 for what could be a medicre game, rather then having a larger player base who will spend 1 dollar  minute and give the subscription players , actual players to play with.

 

CU is a nich game, and to think little under 9k people can keep a server alive... is laughable and it is also a waste of resources.

Aww, I thought we were just starting to get along. :) Seriously though, here is my thinking:

>>> What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute.

  Far from it. I know this and totally respect the games that can pull this off well. However, it's not the game I want to make.

>>>>Turbine is doing extremely well in that regard, SOE as well.

  They were doing extremely well. It saved the game.


 

  

I sstopped reading there cause my response would of been a book.

With the first reponse, what does a payement model have to do with the content of a game ? My mind is blown away at how arrogant your statement was.

With your second statement, Asheron Call is OLDER then DAoC, and it has a 14.99 a month payemnt model, LotrO has had over 500k players for half a decade at times reching millions of players world wide. SOE has run the everyquest series for decades with payment models. The notion that some of the best developers in the industry  needs saving, is absolutely fucking ludacris and completly out of touch at where the market is.

 

You may beleive you are not insulting millions of players around the world with these idiculous claims, but you are, and it just keeps getting worse with tever letter typed.

 

The reality is this :

 

As of right now you have  6,890 person player base. With how you want to launch the game and promote the game, I would maybe double that number at release. With the cost of Staff, the cost of future expansions, taxes ,, maybe your accountant can do the math.....

I'm not here to get along, I'm here to have fun with the people who like  genre I'm extremely passionate about. I am part of community, you should try it some time.

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  taurak

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 174

4/12/13 10:01:54 PM#152

I agree with Mark here 100%

You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".

Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.

They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.

The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.

The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so  they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.

People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 412

4/12/13 10:11:04 PM#153
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by Mkilbride

 

He also said that, if the game is in a state where it has to go F2P...he's shutting it down.

THis really the wrong attiude and something that kills games when a developer speaks.

LotrO had been running all server , without merging , with healthy populations for years. Then they did DDo which also had an impressive following before free to play mmove, after free to play they added servers.

 What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute.

Turbine is doing extremely well in that regard, SOE as well.

SO what Mark Jacobs is telling his fans of CU, I would rather have a limited number of players, make them spend 9.99 for what could be a medicre game, rather then having a larger player base who will spend 1 dollar  minute and give the subscription players , actual players to play with.

 

CU is a nich game, and to think little under 9k people can keep a server alive... is laughable and it is also a waste of resources.

Aww, I thought we were just starting to get along. :) Seriously though, here is my thinking:

>>> What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute.

  Far from it. I know this and totally respect the games that can pull this off well. However, it's not the game I want to make.

>>>>Turbine is doing extremely well in that regard, SOE as well.

  They were doing extremely well. It saved the game.


 

  

I sstopped reading there cause my response would of been a book.

With the first reponse, what does a payement model have to do with the content of a game ? My mind is blown away at how arrogant your statement was.

Okay, I'm confused here. You said "What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute."

My response was: Far from it (responding to your point about "....Mark Jacobs is missing"). Meaning that I do understand it opens a wider world. In other words, all I said was that I agree with you that FTP opens up a wider market. I've said this from day 1 about out KS, I've said this to VCs, etc. I just don't want to go down that route, simple as that.

With your second statement, Asheron Call is OLDER then DAoC, and it has a 14.99 a month payemnt model, LotrO has had over 500k players for half a decade at times reching millions of players world wide. SOE has run the everyquest series for decades with payment models. The notion that some of the best developers in the industry  needs saving, is absolutely fucking ludacris and completly out of touch at where the market is.

And this makes even less sense. LoTRO was doing badly until LoTRO went free to play. Once it made the transition, it made them (Turbine and then WB) a lot of money and was a huge success. Once again I agreed with you. How come I agreed with both of your points and you started screaming at me for agreeing with you? I'm glad I didn't disagree, the forums would have melted down. :)

 

You may beleive you are not insulting millions of players around the world with these idiculous claims, but you are, and it just keeps getting worse with tever letter typed.

I'm sorry, what claims are you referring to? The ones where I said that a lot of developers were going to go out of business because too much competition would cause a market shakeout? Please show me one industry where that doesn't happen. Also, how I have insulted anyone? My points were that too many devs/pubs are rushing into FTP and there will be a shakeout. There's already been a lot of casualites in the mobile space (look at the number of devs that have closed up shop), just as there were in the MMO space when lots of devs flooded there.

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Dren_Utogi

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1682

4/12/13 10:13:43 PM#154
Originally posted by taurak

I agree with Mark here 100%

You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".

Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.

They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.

The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.

The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so  they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.

People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.

my mind won;t stop blowing away  right now, THe f2p mdel is going on it;s 5th year with Anarchary Online leading the pack. It is the MARKET, get over it and retire.

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2909

4/12/13 10:16:59 PM#155
Originally posted by taurak

I agree with Mark here 100%

You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".

Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.

They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.

The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.

The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so  they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.

People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.

 You do know a server is a dime a dosen now-a-days right? Every major console game has multiplayer of some sort without monthly membership fees to pay for these games.

 Where do you think they're hosting these games on? Servers.

I can easily go out a buy a server for dirt cheap. This is what I found in less than 30 seconds of searching: http://www.newegg.com/Servers-Workstations/Category/ID-271

They're very inexpensive. So don't be fooled into believing servers require MMO's to have a subscription. F2P games do push our a lot of content all the time. In fact I see more content coming from the F2P market then I see coming from subscription based models. F2P games don't require their customer to purchase addition content (unless it's fashion,exp boosts, or potions from the cash shop). Your game experience doesn't suffer from not having overly abundent storage slots. That just comes down to how much of a pack rat you end up being in a game.

I have to disagree with the only successful F2P games that are "pay to win". This is completely untrue. DCUO, DDO, AoC, Tera, Raiderz, Dragons Nest, Wizardry Online, Anarchy Online, AION, I can keep this list going but I'd rather not. That P2W statement is completely false and don't believe what people tell you. F2P companies for the most part try hard to no make their game F2P. They understand that the Western Audiance doesn't want P2W so they don't make their games as such.

What makes a MMO last is the quality of the game and time and effort put within the game. A customer won't spend years in a very shallow/linear game and this is a proven fact. Which is beyond me as to why developers keep making MMO's as such.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2909

4/12/13 10:18:57 PM#156
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by taurak

I agree with Mark here 100%

You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".

Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.

They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.

The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.

The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so  they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.

People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.

my mind won;t stop blowing away  right now, THe f2p mdel is going on it;s 5th year with Anarchary Online leading the pack. It is the MARKET, get over it and retire.

 Wrong wrong wrong, F2P has been out much longer than Anarchy Online (which is a very fun game and I love it to this day).


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

4/12/13 10:23:20 PM#157
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by taurak

I agree with Mark here 100%

You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".

Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.

They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.

The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.

The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so  they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.

People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.

 You do know a server is a dime a dosen now-a-days right? Every major console game has multiplayer of some sort without monthly membership fees to pay for these games.

 Where do you think they're hosting these games on? Servers.

I can easily go out a buy a server for dirt cheap. This is what I found in less than 30 seconds of searching: http://www.newegg.com/Servers-Workstations/Category/ID-271

They're very inexpensive. So don't be fooled into believing servers require MMO's to have a subscription. F2P games do push our a lot of content all the time. In fact I see more content coming from the F2P market then I see coming from subscription based models. F2P games don't require their customer to purchase addition content (unless it's fashion,exp boosts, or potions from the cash shop). Your game experience doesn't suffer from not having overly abundent storage slots. That just comes down to how much of a pack rat you end up being in a game.

I have to disagree with the only successful F2P games that are "pay to win". This is completely untrue. DCUO, DDO, AoC, Tera, Raiderz, Dragons Nest, Wizardry Online, Anarchy Online, AION, I can keep this list going but I'd rather not. That P2W statement is completely false and don't believe what people tell you. F2P companies for the most part try hard to no make their game F2P. They understand that the Western Audiance doesn't want P2W so they don't make their games as such.

What makes a MMO last is the quality of the game and time and effort put within the game. A customer won't spend years in a very shallow/linear game and this is a proven fact. Which is beyond me as to why developers keep making MMO's as such.

It is not pay to win. It is WHATEVER IT TAKES to hook in another whale that will drop few thousand a MONTH on a game. It is a crack dealer business model. Find the addicts. hook them in, feed on them. Make new game repeat. People do not get how f2p actually works. It is not sustainable long term. I get recrutiers trying to get me to work for one of these scam companies every week, they pop up all over the place non stop. Crash is coming

  boxsnd

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 457

4/12/13 10:25:30 PM#158
I think we now know the reason WAR and DAoC are being held hostage with a few thousand subscribers when they could go F2P and flourish.

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  Dren_Utogi

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1682

4/12/13 10:26:44 PM#159
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by taurak

I agree with Mark here 100%

You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".

Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.

They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.

The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.

The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so  they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.

People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.

my mind won;t stop blowing away  right now, THe f2p mdel is going on it;s 5th year with Anarchary Online leading the pack. It is the MARKET, get over it and retire.

 Wrong wrong wrong, F2P has been out much longer than Anarchy Online (which is a very fun game and I love it to this day).

Thanks, so now we have clearified , that F2P works.  thanks !

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2909

4/12/13 10:27:56 PM#160
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Aww, I thought we were just starting to get along. :) Seriously though, here is my thinking:

>>> What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute.

  Far from it. I know this and totally respect the games that can pull this off well. However, it's not the game I want to make. I don't want to deal with a large number of free players in an RvR-based game. I absolutely recognize how successful some, not all, FTP comversions and games have been. Why is it wrong for me to want to make a smaller game and use KS to help guage interest if it is okay for FTP players to have their own game(s)?

>>>>Turbine is doing extremely well in that regard, SOE as well.

  They were doing extremely well. It saved the game.

>>>>SO what Mark Jacobs is telling his fans of CU, I would rather have a limited number of players, make them spend 9.99 for what could be a medicre game, rather then having a larger player base who will spend 1 dollar  minute and give the subscription players , actual players to play with.

  Without addresing the mediocre part, I'm not making anybody do anything, I'm asking. Again, that's the point of the KSer. If we don't fund, I end up wasting about 150K. OTOH, if I try to make the game without the Kickstarter and it fails, I lose a lot more than that. 

>>>>CU is a nich game, and to think little under 9k people can keep a server alive... is laughable and it is also a waste of resources.

   Well, yes and no. Even if we had 10K paying $10 per month, that's 1.2M. That's not a large amount but it is not $0 either.  Now, if we only had 10K at launch, then we would be a bad investment for me but assuming that my belief is that 30K - 50K would pay for this game, then it becomes a good investment.

   What it boils down to is simply this, I don't want to try to make a FTP game and I'm promising my backers that the game will be a subscription-based game. Why is wanting to make a small game that appeals to a niche audience suddenly a bad thing especially as I've said the sub price will be below the industry average? 

   Keep one thing in mind please and that is the potential ratio of backers to possible players. Do you really think that games such as Torment and Project Eternity will only sell the copies that they have pre-sold on KS (in other words, no new orders)? Of course not  evenif they are just good games but not outstanding. So, what could the possible ratio be between pre-sold and on release? Back in my EA days, I was told by all the sales folks that PC pre-orders accounted for <10% of total sales (this was back in 2008 and console sales traditionally had a much higher %). Now, if we look at KS as a more risky version of a pre-order, what is that percentage? If you also keep in mind that Obisidian's great games sold in the millions, then their sales on the KS would be, to use the parlance here, an epic failure if that's all they sold. Now, what do you think the chances of that really are? My guess is that if PE is the game I expect it will be, that 73K will represent less than 10% of their total sales. Now, I'm not saying that CU will get that high of a number, as a matter of fact I doubt that. OTOH, is it so unreasonable to think that if we fund with 15K backers that we would get a 3X once the game goes LIVE. I don't think it is. Again, this is all conjecture till one of the mega-hits of KS like Project Eternity goes up for sale.

   Anyway, no matter what I'm taking the biggest risk as I already have by funding and putting my name back out there in interviews, in forums, etc. 

 

  

 There's nothing wrong with making a subscription-based game. What's wrong is that you come out and shit on the doorsteps of everyone who likes F2P by bashing the model because you've had a few bad run-ins with angry customers who didn't like how you handled your business.

 Heck I don't blame them either check my rant about your article, it's nothing but trash talking the F2P model and the community who back it.

 As far as the biggest risk, that's a joke. You're not an indie developer. You're the ex-owner of Mythic who sold off the company to EA. Quite a big back stabbing move on your part ( I bet you made a killing from that deal). But who's to blame? *cough* MJ *cough*. Now you're using a KS and acting like an indie developer with your background with DAoC. Trust me I loved DAoC and I love Indie-Developers, but I'll never forget the trash that came out of your studio when Mythic worked for EA.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

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