Trending Games | ArcheAge | WildStar | Guild Wars 2 | World of Warcraft

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,783,912 Users Online:0
Games:723  Posts:6,192,372
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Fun and challenge should exist before endgame

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search
103 posts found
  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/11/13 11:11:55 AM#61
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is probably not the only solution, but a solution that works. Is there a reason why this is a problem? Play up to end game. Finish the content. Stop. Wait for the next content release. Essentially it is like finishing a game and wait for a new one .. just that the "new" content is an expansion (or content release, or whatever you call it) and not   a new game.

If the content is fun, there is no issue. If the content is not fun, it does not matter if it is end-game content or not.

And i don't understand why people complains that leveling is not fun. If it is not, you should not play it. Find a game that is fun to level. That has nothing to do with whether there is an end-game or not.

Or dont play at all if this is all you hope for? :)

Flame on!

:)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

4/11/13 11:35:02 AM#62
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is probably not the only solution, but a solution that works. Is there a reason why this is a problem? Play up to end game. Finish the content. Stop. Wait for the next content release. Essentially it is like finishing a game and wait for a new one .. just that the "new" content is an expansion (or content release, or whatever you call it) and not   a new game.

If the content is fun, there is no issue. If the content is not fun, it does not matter if it is end-game content or not.

And i don't understand why people complains that leveling is not fun. If it is not, you should not play it. Find a game that is fun to level. That has nothing to do with whether there is an end-game or not.

Or dont play at all if this is all you hope for? :)

Flame on!

:)

uh? Why shouldn't i play if a game is fun?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/11/13 11:58:18 AM#63
Originally posted by Banaghran

Only if you have a completely linear, vertical and whatnot progression, which was technically my whole point.

As for "simple and deep", you know, anyone can watch PA, but very few actually notice when they use words like "experientially different" or "meaningful choices", depth itself does not magically appear out of simplicity with some recoloring options thrown in :)

Whatever color you paint it, too much complexity early on reduces your game's retention.  LOL will eventually see diminishing retention of new players as its champion count continues to grow, because playing LOL well requires knowing not only your own champion (simple) but the opponents' champions (simple when there were 20 champions; quite time-consuming when there are 112.)  Calling it by a different name like lateral progression doesn't change this -- too many rules early on pushes players away.

Depth doesn't magically appear.  Nobody said it did.  We're talking about whether it's a wise plan to overcomplicate the early gameplay vs. layering on content later on in progression.  One is outright a bad move because it involves complication for complication's sake.  The other can be an acceptable move, as it involves layering in new rules (which are hopefully also simple) which interact in interesting ways with the existing ruleset and create depth.

I barely visit PA, though Extra Credit is awesome and has been 100% correct each time I've watched it.  I speak to depth because (a) I've played many games at an extremely high level of play to know which are deep and which aren't, and (b) I'm a game designer professionally, and by closely monitoring the changes in player behavior based on changes I make to games I see a direct cause-and-effect of how different design decisions impact a game.   I don't make MMORPGs, but the underlying principles are the same in any genre so when I speak about depth there tends to be a lot of actual game-making experience behind the words.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

4/11/13 1:05:20 PM#64
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is probably not the only solution, but a solution that works. Is there a reason why this is a problem? Play up to end game. Finish the content. Stop. Wait for the next content release. Essentially it is like finishing a game and wait for a new one .. just that the "new" content is an expansion (or content release, or whatever you call it) and not   a new game.

If the content is fun, there is no issue. If the content is not fun, it does not matter if it is end-game content or not.

And i don't understand why people complains that leveling is not fun. If it is not, you should not play it. Find a game that is fun to level. That has nothing to do with whether there is an end-game or not.

That's exactly what I do.  I have zero interest in endgame, I play until I max my character and then the character gets shelved.  If the game is fun enough, I'll start another character.  If not, I'll drop the game until there is more pre-endgame content to do, or I'll just go play a different game.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

4/11/13 1:50:59 PM#65
As far as I am concerned, the journey is always greater than the destination....When (and if) I reach end game I eitehr start playing alts or go to a new game......
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

4/11/13 2:28:23 PM#66
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

That's exactly what I do.  I have zero interest in endgame, I play until I max my character and then the character gets shelved.  If the game is fun enough, I'll start another character.  If not, I'll drop the game until there is more pre-endgame content to do, or I'll just go play a different game.

Yeah. Just play whatever part of the game that entertains you .. that is what an entertainment product is about.

And there is no lack of good games to play. Personally i like end-game progression too .. but i can totally see why some only digs level progression.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/11/13 5:14:31 PM#67
Originally posted by Theocritus
As far as I am concerned, the journey is always greater than the destination....When (and if) I reach end game I eitehr start playing alts or go to a new game......

Sounds like you're more concerned with the mile-markers than the journey itself.

Once the levels stop coming, you don't see the road ahead (all the things you could do), you only see the lack of mile-markers (level-ups) in the road beyond.  So you end the journey before it's really ended.

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2312

World > Quest Progression

4/11/13 5:27:58 PM#68
Depending on the game the journey does end or changes to something completely different. WoW is the biggest and best example of this. Level scaling is a HUGE aspect to
Playability after level cap.
  emperorwings

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1317

4/11/13 5:30:47 PM#69
Just play it and have fun and not worry about levels or endgame. The game is only what you make it.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  DonY81

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/31/08
Posts: 333

4/11/13 5:33:00 PM#70
They could cap level achievements and levelling per day. That will slow people down then put more emphasis on things like crafting and make it worthwhile. Possibly run a few dungeons group or solo i dont know. Maybe your characters story which could be seperate from earning XP could be something else that could be looked at.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/12/13 7:53:37 PM#71
Originally posted by Axehilt

Whatever color you paint it, too much complexity early on reduces your game's retention.  LOL will eventually see diminishing retention of new players as its champion count continues to grow, because playing LOL well requires knowing not only your own champion (simple) but the opponents' champions (simple when there were 20 champions; quite time-consuming when there are 112.)  Calling it by a different name like lateral progression doesn't change this -- too many rules early on pushes players away.

Depth doesn't magically appear.  Nobody said it did.  We're talking about whether it's a wise plan to overcomplicate the early gameplay vs. layering on content later on in progression.  One is outright a bad move because it involves complication for complication's sake.  The other can be an acceptable move, as it involves layering in new rules (which are hopefully also simple) which interact in interesting ways with the existing ruleset and create depth.

I barely visit PA, though Extra Credit is awesome and has been 100% correct each time I've watched it.  I speak to depth because (a) I've played many games at an extremely high level of play to know which are deep and which aren't, and (b) I'm a game designer professionally, and by closely monitoring the changes in player behavior based on changes I make to games I see a direct cause-and-effect of how different design decisions impact a game.   I don't make MMORPGs, but the underlying principles are the same in any genre so when I speak about depth there tends to be a lot of actual game-making experience behind the words.

But why do you, its not really jumping, you have put on 7 mile boots for this one, arrive at the conclusions that it would overcomplicate things and it has to be very early? Or should we really take only the bad examples into account? Like in your progressive system dead content that is completely skipped?

As for (a) , i will let you find out on your own why i think it is actually a bad thing, and as for (b), it made me think of an era around 7-8 years ago, when soon-to-be-bankrupt managers pranced around mobile gaming companies spewing things like "a game has to entertain just for the first 15 seconds, then people will play it and be happy", so i wont comment :)

Flame on!

:)

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/12/13 7:56:55 PM#72
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is probably not the only solution, but a solution that works. Is there a reason why this is a problem? Play up to end game. Finish the content. Stop. Wait for the next content release. Essentially it is like finishing a game and wait for a new one .. just that the "new" content is an expansion (or content release, or whatever you call it) and not   a new game.

If the content is fun, there is no issue. If the content is not fun, it does not matter if it is end-game content or not.

And i don't understand why people complains that leveling is not fun. If it is not, you should not play it. Find a game that is fun to level. That has nothing to do with whether there is an end-game or not.

Or dont play at all if this is all you hope for? :)

Flame on!

:)

uh? Why shouldn't i play if a game is fun?

Fun is subjective, what is enough for you is not guaranteed to be enough for everyone else.

Flame on!

:)

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

4/12/13 8:15:00 PM#73
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

That's exactly what I do.  I have zero interest in endgame, I play until I max my character and then the character gets shelved.  If the game is fun enough, I'll start another character.  If not, I'll drop the game until there is more pre-endgame content to do, or I'll just go play a different game.

Yeah. Just play whatever part of the game that entertains you .. that is what an entertainment product is about.

And there is no lack of good games to play. Personally i like end-game progression too .. but i can totally see why some only digs level progression.

I won't do endgame becuase I refuse to engage in PvP of any kind and I absolutely hate raiding.  Not much else to do in the endgame in most MMOs.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  jazz.be

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/06
Posts: 780

4/12/13 8:34:02 PM#74

Blasphemy! Challenge and fun before endgame? What are you, 35 years old??

 

I agree though ;)

It should be easier to die on your journey.

Dying should be really painful like long walks, or loss of XP or something similar.

These two things would greatly improve leveling experience.

  Graey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/22/10
Posts: 218

4/12/13 8:38:53 PM#75
Originally posted by waffleyone

Race to the level cap, through huge amounts of created world, so that you can play the endgame! Why are people racing to the level cap? Because the early game is just a hollow skinner box! Why just a skinner box? Because there isn't any real sense of accomplishment!

What?! Can't somebody develop a game where it's interesting and challenging from the start? Interesting and Challenging doesn't mean 'difficult' per se, not numerically rough or 'hardcore' or permadeath, just that you need to observe and learn and act, with an actual sense of accomplishment, rather than the ever accelerating skinner boxes. I've never made it to endgame in an MMO, and i've tried to do so in more than five, because leveling up and going to a new area never held my attention long enough. The faster I level, the faster I get bored.

Guild Wars 2, for all its possible merits, pissed me off and I quit in the leveling phase because it was too mind numbingly easy. I like Greatswords, and I played a warrior. I ran around, annihilating everything 8 levels higher than me, playing 1handed on a laptop while laying down on a couch with my head on a pillow. And i'm not good at MMOs, it was just that easy. Really, that game might as well only go up to level 16 because you only feel a difference every 5 levels anyway, and they go by fast enough for it.

Numeric inflation is failing as a means to keep people playing, which is why every fifth thread in this forum is "MMOS are Dying!". Offer real challenges earlier, real obstacles. Don't accelerate the hampster wheel, trying to make us think we're going somewhere by running faster. Slow us down. Give us obstacles. Challenge us. We don't need to be hit over the head with shovels all day long, we just need a reason to care why we're playing.

The hundreds of hours I've clocked in MMORPGs has provided me with less interest and accomplishment than any given five hours of Dark Souls or Starcraft, (Excluding soloing bosses in Tera). Somebody needs to get this shit right.

 

Edit: I'm going to pre-empt the "Go to a higher level area" argument by saying that numeric difficulty isn't challenging, doesn't carry accomplishment. Hit byootans git eckspee levuhl fahster git board kwikur.

I agree with you OP. If I had the funds I'd def try and make an MMO. But first what I would do is take some time off and study AI. Study it in a way that I could great a script for AI that would change within certain parameters. For example take wow for instance. If your fighting a boar in the woods...it just stands there and let you kill it. It doesn't really run,  there are no variables so to speak. Taken even further...if you are killing a bandit here and there is a bandit not 50ft away...shouln't the second bandit help the first.

So....after creating an AI that actually changed based on how people played and learned then I would create the world. Also with the AI i would creat characters with the limitations of being a person..what I mean is. your character would be created and they would start young, you would be taken care of and developed over time. You would even get sick and have certain aflictions like for instance maybe you have a disease that could kill your character after a certain amount of time. However I would broaden the game rules to account for that and give you a chance to cure yourself or something.

 

Quests-They would be firstly primitate. based off the needs of the person. For instance you would need to eat, sleep, etc. You would have to hunt, huting alone or with another person would probably increase your odds. This is where pvp would come in as other would hunt with others and kill others as well. Or I would have no pvp(however there would be loopholes) and have the character only have one life. after that you would have to start over. So this would encourage taking things flow and thinking about stuff and also group play.

the worl dwould be chaotic and I'd propably progress through eras...instead of zones. Ie for each expansion it would cover a certain time period progressivlely going forward from a prehistoric type age into a futuristic age., with stats and genes developing other characters. Something along those lines.

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1169

4/12/13 8:40:23 PM#76

Challenge and progression has been done before, if you have yet to see this you need to broaden your gaming portfolio.

Any game that requires a player to handcuff and blindfold himself to experience challenge is a shit game.

 

Boss design is a receding concept of this genre, there used to be a time when bosses would have 6-7 attacks on top of secondary mechanics and sometimes tertiary mechanics. Now most bosses can't be asked to have more than 3 attacks and most don't even have secondary mechanics.

However you can have a mechanically well-structured boss fight and still have it not provide challenge if you allow for infinite vertical progression, personally vertical progression is one of the worse things about the genre. For instance, Path of Exile has a "decent" boss at the end of each act, but the only way to make these bosses truly challenging is by gimping yourself. This is due to the fact that you can obtain absurd amounts of survivability in this game to the point where you don't even need to try, and that's bad.

 

A player should be able to experience a challenge while playing the game as it was intended to be played, while at the same time becoming a better player for overcoming a challenge.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/12/13 8:52:04 PM#77
Originally posted by moosecatlol

 For instance, Path of Exile has a "decent" boss at the end of each act, but the only way to make these bosses truly challenging is by gimping yourself. This is due to the fact that you can obtain absurd amounts of survivability in this game to the point where you don't even need to try, and that's bad.

To be fair, i dont think boss fights were intended for a constant challenge in that game, you have maps and leagues or whatwasthename for that.

In the end i think it is about grind, drops and really testing out your build, when i played it the 1hp all es build was quite strong, but you would get your face smashed by the siren and overlord due to the freeze and lightning mechanics being tied to the amount of maxhp a charater has.

Which was nice to see.

Flame on!

:)

  ManDown717

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/13
Posts: 4

4/12/13 11:10:45 PM#78

Just focusing on the fun aspect, what if we pretended that RPGs could involve more than combat?

 

For example:

Player housing and decorating

Pet taming, breeding, fighting

Crafting system that requires some thought/planning

Exploration

City building

Resource farming

 

Star Wars Galaxies was possibly my favorite MMORPG of all time for the above reasons.  It released originally as a level free, skill based character progression system which never really seemed to be that balanced to me.  But the non-combat activites couldn't be beat.  And I'll always remember hanging out in the cantinas watching players play their instruments for the dancers(with their player crafted outfits and makeup) while 3-4 medics sat around and kept their energy topped off so they wouldn't have to take rest breaks...

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/13/13 12:44:00 AM#79
Originally posted by Banaghran

But why do you, its not really jumping, you have put on 7 mile boots for this one, arrive at the conclusions that it would overcomplicate things and it has to be very early? Or should we really take only the bad examples into account? Like in your progressive system dead content that is completely skipped?

As for (a) , i will let you find out on your own why i think it is actually a bad thing, and as for (b), it made me think of an era around 7-8 years ago, when soon-to-be-bankrupt managers pranced around mobile gaming companies spewing things like "a game has to entertain just for the first 15 seconds, then people will play it and be happy", so i wont comment

Well let's rewind a bit to the part where I already said that unless the early content is botched in some way, it's fine.  Meaning it's going to be sufficiently complex and deep.  Adding complexity to that is overcomplication.

Not even sure what you're trying to say with the latter bit.  Just sounds like a bunch of baseless flame bait.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/13/13 8:54:36 PM#80
Originally posted by Axehilt

Well let's rewind a bit to the part where I already said that unless the early content is botched in some way, it's fine.  Meaning it's going to be sufficiently complex and deep.  Adding complexity to that is overcomplication.

Not even sure what you're trying to say with the latter bit.  Just sounds like a bunch of baseless flame bait.

Well, you never said that, you said "unless previous content was botched it makes more sense to add content at the end" thus i understood "addding early content makes sense only if early content was botched", then you continued to paint a picture of a game that overwhelms players with content, which was the bad example i mentioned later, vertical progression has its own bad examples, too.

And dunno, do you really expect to talk about this at this completely theoretical level, where N features means a good game, N-1 means a botched game and N+1 means overcomplicated?

No game can run forever, or run in its original state forever, there will always be fragmentation, may it be vertical ("fun starts at endgame") or horizontal ("there are too many skills now so we introduced a new race that has its own dimension"), you can just prolong the time it has not yet happened.

As for the flame, it was not intended so, if someone says that he understands the game "better" just because he understands the playstyle of the top 5% or values it the most, it concerns me. And (b) was a bait from you, not me :)

Flame on!

:)

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search