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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Elder Scrolls Online: An Argument for 'Faction Lock'

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  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/10/13 3:43:05 PM#241
Originally posted by lizardbones


It does use the Elder Scrolls IP, but it's a fundamentally different type of game. You can't get much more different than Single Player and MMO while remaining some type of RPG.

The decision to not write the same kind of game as the TES series was nearly the first decision made. After that point, the decisions on game mechanics are based around whether or not those mechanics make sense in the game they are writing, not whether or not the feature worked in the original TES games.

PvP, faction pride, invisible walls and race locks per faction are all things that would come up in an MMO, but not in a single player game. These things weren't even questions in the single player games. The only way to avoid all these things would have been to not write an MMO.

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying they made the right decisions, but people seem to be acting like there's only one possible way they could have written the game as an MMO, while ignoring the fact that the decisions they had to make while writing the MMO aren't decisions that they would even have considered if the game were a single player game.

** edit **
Removed 'open world exploration'. That comes up whether the game is an MMO or a single player game.

 

Not quite.

 

'Faction Pride' is a notion that's relatively nebulous to begin with. For the sake of this though I am mainly noting that such a thing can come from a multiplayer or single player game just as equally as the basis for having factions is built solely on the premise of having them in the first place.

Skyrim for example had the war between Imperials and Stormcloaks. Not once have I ever had the inclination to side with the Stormcloaks in any playthrough because I disagree with the logic that faction presents, and consequently I take pride in standing by the empire.

Or the questline of New Vegas. As a single player game, you were tossed into a situation where you had four-ish choices of who you could ultimately ally yourself with, and that choice could bring a strong sense of pride in the side you chose to represent if you were the kind of person to do so.

 

A single player game is not fundamentally different from an MMO, save for the obvious fact that one is single player and the other is multi player.

 

This is also a notion evidenced by the way in which many MMOs can and are played.

For example SWTOR. People have called that a massively single player game before for a reason. Because at a technical level the game was designed to be very personally focused throughout even though it existed in a shared world.

On the flipside there's the likes of Spore which also had the billing of being massively single player, but in a much different way. As you are playing a single player game, but much of the game world becomes fleshed out by the contributions of other users.

 

So the claim of compromise over the distnction between single and multi player may not necessarily be wrong, but it's presented falsely.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/10/13 3:46:10 PM#242
Originally posted by Distopia

This is what bugs me, I'm not excited by the notion of a doac 2 by any stretch, what I want is TES style questing, lore, etcc.. That I can experience with friends, I'll PVP in sandbox games or some FFA systems, but in themeparks not so much, too arbitrary,  too guided... not enough player ownership to care, etc...

To think as you do is just completely short-sighted.

TESO is being designed AROUND RvRvR though so to think as you do is just completely short-sighted because you are defending it just because of the TES name being tagged on it and even stating you are not going to take part in the PvP because its too arbitrary and guided...wow, the entire BASE game, but you are still going to defend it just because the name is TES...talk about crazy.

So again, it falls back to what so many are saying just in this thread let alone on EVERY single TES based website...if this didnt have the name TES, would anyone think it was ripping the gameplay off? No. because it doesnt even remotely try to, everything about the TES games was changed to fit standard MMO gameplay, gameplay that has the genre rooted in a whole lot of MEH. Now a TES sandbox open world game, that, that would be REFRESHING to the genre.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3463

4/10/13 4:05:48 PM#243
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Distopia

This is what bugs me, I'm not excited by the notion of a doac 2 by any stretch, what I want is TES style questing, lore, etcc.. That I can experience with friends, I'll PVP in sandbox games or some FFA systems, but in themeparks not so much, too arbitrary,  too guided... not enough player ownership to care, etc...

To think as you do is just completely short-sighted.

TESO is being designed AROUND RvRvR though so to think as you do is just completely short-sighted because you are defending it just because of the TES name being tagged on it and even stating you are not going to take part in the PvP because its too arbitrary and guided...wow, the entire BASE game, but you are still going to defend it just because the name is TES...talk about crazy.

So again, it falls back to what so many are saying just in this thread let alone on EVERY single TES based website...if this didnt have the name TES, would anyone think it was ripping the gameplay off? No. because it doesnt even remotely try to, everything about the TES games was changed to fit standard MMO gameplay, gameplay that has the genre rooted in a whole lot of MEH. Now a TES sandbox open world game, that, that would be REFRESHING to the genre.

Only part of the game thats DAoC is the 3 faction war. Rest is all TES. Lore, quest style, combat and art. Even the maps are designed after the games. All your picking on is one feature, cant go everywhere from level 1. Thats the only thing that makes this not a TES game. You really need to back up and take a look at this. You even have this side fun stuff like joining the Mage guild and that deepens the exploring in the game. If each factions maps are large and expansive your problem with the game is moot. I would rather the 2 factions maps be the level 50+ and 50++ that add elder game thats a challenge then being able to explore a sea of grey mobs.

  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/10/13 4:16:06 PM#244

Well I've ranted previously about a lot more than that one aspect. :p

 

Aside from that, if you have grey mobs in a game then you're building the game to have a lot of static content.

 

If you want it to retain challenge but don't want to abandon a leveling scale, do what GW2 did and scale players to zones? suddenly the severe dropoff of danger stops happening. Making the counterargument presented equally moot.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3463

4/10/13 4:21:51 PM#245
Originally posted by Deivos

Well I've ranted previously about a lot more than that one aspect. :p

 

Aside from that, if you have grey mobs in a game then you're building the game to have a lot of static content.

 

If you want it to retain challenge but don't want to abandon a leveling scale, do what GW2 did and scale players to zones? suddenly the severe dropoff of danger stops happening. Making the counterargument presented equally moot.

Ya that could work to but I have to say I was not a huge fan of it for a few reason. The biggest is they seem to have a hard time scaling the mobs. Sometimes there way to easy and sometimes trash mobs are deadly. Between level jumps in mobs, like here they are level 25 but as you cross the hill they are level 29 and you are down leveled to 24 and all around you see people dieing. I get that means tweeking but if I had to pick between a down level system and a 50+ and a 50++ map that was giving me elder game and rewarding me for that. I would pick the latter. 

  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/10/13 5:08:01 PM#246

Fair enough. The point was that there isn't one solution, and that the problem is only present if other methods aren't considered.

 

Personally my solution would be to remove levels from mobs entirely and tier them by behaviors and traits instead. This would mean vertical progress isn't as dramatic and is more dependent on proficiency in known skills, but I find it to be a method that eliminates the bizarre nature of level scaling and provides a much more consistent experience.

 

Only reason I didn't suggest this here is because I know it diverges from the way TES itself operates, but the other option was one that was possible to present while retaining either the present leveling/class system or a more traditional TES mechanic.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1917

4/10/13 9:20:07 PM#247
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by jtcgs Didnt need to read past "Coincidence? Probably not." to know this is just an article being written due to MONEY being given to them.   There isnt a single person, not even hardcore DaoC fans that can argue that it is not a coincidence because THERE ARE NO DAOC FACTIONS LOCKED BEHIND AN INVISIBLE WALL clones out there, no one but the makers of that game thought it was a good enough idea to do it in another game... Coincidence? Duh. No amount of articles is going to change the minds of the TES fans that have been arguing against this crap move on every single TES site, its a small box being made for a game meant for an open world. Deal with that fact, and the fact you are not going to change the minds of those pissed off with anything less than a TES MMO with an open world.  
They will deal with it by sleeping on beds made of soft, cushy money. Seriously. It won't be like that cheap, paper money we get. It will be soft and fluffy and it will sing them to sleep at night. People make a big deal out of the 'ideals' behind games, and whether they are 'true' MMOs, 'true' TES games (true 'SW' games), etc., but it's the basic game mechanics that kill the games. Are the environments static, or do they look lively? Is there plenty of content at release covering linear, repeatable and nonlinear activities? Do all the buttons work? Do the graphics look good and consistent? If they get all the basic gaming stuff nailed down, the rules that aren't like the single player games won't matter that much. It sounds like they've gotten the basics nailed down. At least I haven't seen any complaints about that stuff yet. The recurring complaint is that the game won't be like the single player games. Well, yeah. It's an MMO. It won't be anything like the single player games. ** edit ** I think of it like this. They could write it using the "Man With The Iron Fists" method, where they try to be just like the predecessors, and fail. "Man With The Iron Fists" tries to recreate old Kung Fu movies and tries too hard to be too much like those old Kung Fu movies. It's just bad. The other method is the "Evil Dead" method, where the people making the movie make a movie that stands on its own, but references enough of the predecessor that you know where it's coming from. If you've never seen the predecessor, and don't care about it, you still get a good product, but if you've seen the predecessor, the movie is even better. It sounds like Zenimax is going with the "Evil Dead" method, which doesn't guarantee success, but it at least avoids the guaranteed failure of the "Man With The Iron Fists" method.  
I could imagine boat loads more money if they focused more on the Elder Scrolls side of the game than they do the Dark Age of Camelot side.  Actually, I don't have to imagine, we know the relative sales of DAoC and the Elder Scrolls games, don't we.  Even more so if they allow for fully realized end game PvE that lets you play and progress without having to do a single bit of PvP.


Well of course you can imagine it that way. Why would you imagine it in a way that doesn't support your point of view? That doesn't even make sense.

There are single player RPG that sold worse than DAoC and those games did not have PvP. The argument that writing TESO without PvP or without three faction PvP would result in greater sales isn't a good one. For one, it involves changing history (rewriting TESO) to support the argument.

I do agree about the PvE for long term players. Having a PvP focus is going to limit the audience and as dynamic as PvP can be, it gets repetitive. I would love to see a really good PvE focused end game. I don't really think I'll see it, but I'd like to. For that matter, I'd like to see more of a sandbox focus in a game with the budget that TESO has. I don't think I'll see it, but I'd like to.

Anyway, their money is going to make them happy. The game will follow the same sales and retention arcs as pretty much every other video game, but it's going to make them boatloads of money. Again, this is assuming they get the basic game mechanics down pat. If something like their version of talent trees is copied from WoW, and doesn't work right, none of the other stuff in the game really matters.

 

You're the one not making sense.  The point is that DAoC did not sell that many boxes in comparison to even the lowest rated ES game.  PvP was not my factor in that, it is merely the numbers, period.  Which audience has the potential to make them more money, RvR fanatics or ES fanatics?  I'd say the numbers are pretty darn obvious.

  Grunch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 520

4/10/13 9:35:20 PM#248

DAoC did great in its time. MMOs were still rather new on the market with EQ being the big man on campus. That said, FACTION LOCK is a great idea for an rvr based game. Only people who have not played DAoC will disagree. I have much respect for the devs for sticking to their guns and not caving to the blind fan boys who desperately want to ruin ESO before its even released.

 

"If they were to remove faction lock it would ruin the entire RVR aspect of the game." - Plato, 340 BC

"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."

  RedMachine72

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/10
Posts: 79

4/10/13 9:54:08 PM#249

I'm sorry, but IMHO there needs to be class imbalances. If everyone is the same, no one is different. Look at what WoW did. Back in vanilla, the factions were different in the fact their were class differences. Horde had shamans and Alliance had paladins as their faction specific classes and it was good time then in PvP. Then Burning Crusade hit and that was the end of that. No one had an advantage, only advantage was getting more people to one area faster than the others in all battlegrounds. The unique feel was gone as was the fun of having to face a class you could not play and get used to unless you rolled the other faction. Then the whiners really hit and the crying was unbearable to the developers and to shut them up they made everyone the same. No one could be unique in their class builds anymore cause the changed talent points and then took them away and gave you a choice of a class spell every 15 lvls. I really enjoyed WoW and played thru Mists hoping to be able to continue enjoying it, but sadly that is gone along with any uniqueness of any class or faction.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2739

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

4/10/13 11:20:29 PM#250
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Pixel_Jockey
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Pixel_Jockey
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

And why cant Mario still be fixing pipes? Forget this side scrolling idea where he saves his girlfriend Peach. You know what lets rewind everything and go back to 8 bit graphics. Thats how TES started. Lets rewind WoW and have it only be a RTS. By your standard we would miss out on a lot of great games that started from something else. 

What? So confused. WTB more logic.

 

Replying to what you said in red. Games grow and change and just because the single player game had it does not mean its needs to be in the MMO. Sure over all it needs to feel like TES. It must have story and lore to fit but Locked factions does not break this game. Just like any video game that started out as a RTS or a single player RPG. When it makes a jump into 3D or a MMO or any other medium. Its time for change to fit that. Just like a book made into a movie it cant keep all the same elements. 

Except they could keep all the same elements and give you what you want at the same time, but they choose not to. Everyone could be happy here, they CHOOSE not to do it, not that it can't be done.

Thats what kills me from people on your side of this. You think you speak for all TES fans and you dont. I am a HUGE TES fan. Been playing them from the days of 8 Bit games. As a TES fan I LOVE this current design. At best if they remade the game there would be a different set of fans who would be happy and another set that would be upset.

Foodle just ignore them, you're not gonna change their mind because they have an agenda which is clear as hell.  We all know that there are millions of TES fans looking forward to ESO as evident by the Facebook likes (over a million) tons of positive feedback since the 1st press event in October, many more positive hype since Pax.  Not to mention the myriad of supportive and eager fans on very popular websites like TESOF and Tamriel Foundry  and the many Podcasts which get rave reviews.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2739

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

4/10/13 11:33:43 PM#251
Originally posted by Grunch

DAoC did great in its time. MMOs were still rather new on the market with EQ being the big man on campus. That said, FACTION LOCK is a great idea for an rvr based game. Only people who have not played DAoC will disagree. I have much respect for the devs for sticking to their guns and not caving to the blind fan boys who desperately want to ruin ESO before its even released.

 

"If they were to remove faction lock it would ruin the entire RVR aspect of the game." - Plato, 340 BC

DAoC actually outsold and had more concurrent subs then EQ for a period of time in late 2002, early 2003.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5247

4/11/13 2:55:49 AM#252
There are times when gameplay must come first. This is one. You can't allow setting or lore to overide game design common sense.
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15596

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/11/13 3:08:21 AM#253
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Distopia

This is what bugs me, I'm not excited by the notion of a doac 2 by any stretch, what I want is TES style questing, lore, etcc.. That I can experience with friends, I'll PVP in sandbox games or some FFA systems, but in themeparks not so much, too arbitrary,  too guided... not enough player ownership to care, etc...

To think as you do is just completely short-sighted.

TESO is being designed AROUND RvRvR though so to think as you do is just completely short-sighted because you are defending it just because of the TES name being tagged on it and even stating you are not going to take part in the PvP because its too arbitrary and guided...wow, the entire BASE game, but you are still going to defend it just because the name is TES...talk about crazy.

So again, it falls back to what so many are saying just in this thread let alone on EVERY single TES based website...if this didnt have the name TES, would anyone think it was ripping the gameplay off? No. because it doesnt even remotely try to, everything about the TES games was changed to fit standard MMO gameplay, gameplay that has the genre rooted in a whole lot of MEH. Now a TES sandbox open world game, that, that would be REFRESHING to the genre.

I've acknowledged the RvR focus of this title, I've acknowledged in other threads, that PVP especially a homage to DAOC is an odd choice for this games focus. With that said an RVR focus really doesn't mean bad PVE options...  if such a stance is "defending" something I guess I am. But hey what I've seen and heard from the PVE side of things has me interested, maybe I have some sort of entitlement issue because I like to play what interests me. If so my bad...

As for PVE being "guided",.. supposedly it's not in many ways, but we'll see.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

4/11/13 4:03:46 AM#254

I maybe stubborn or limited in my view on this faction system but TESO with seprate factions and alot of themeaprk will never appeal to me it will never be a TES game nomatter how hard they try giving us felling its TES traditional mmo.

Again i repeat should have been sandbox with ZERO instance and open ended world with open fanctional pvp everywhere.

I leave this to new genration who wanne play this fake TES game.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3463

4/11/13 1:34:28 PM#255
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Pixel_Jockey
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Pixel_Jockey
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

And why cant Mario still be fixing pipes? Forget this side scrolling idea where he saves his girlfriend Peach. You know what lets rewind everything and go back to 8 bit graphics. Thats how TES started. Lets rewind WoW and have it only be a RTS. By your standard we would miss out on a lot of great games that started from something else. 

What? So confused. WTB more logic.

 

Replying to what you said in red. Games grow and change and just because the single player game had it does not mean its needs to be in the MMO. Sure over all it needs to feel like TES. It must have story and lore to fit but Locked factions does not break this game. Just like any video game that started out as a RTS or a single player RPG. When it makes a jump into 3D or a MMO or any other medium. Its time for change to fit that. Just like a book made into a movie it cant keep all the same elements. 

Except they could keep all the same elements and give you what you want at the same time, but they choose not to. Everyone could be happy here, they CHOOSE not to do it, not that it can't be done.

Thats what kills me from people on your side of this. You think you speak for all TES fans and you dont. I am a HUGE TES fan. Been playing them from the days of 8 Bit games. As a TES fan I LOVE this current design. At best if they remade the game there would be a different set of fans who would be happy and another set that would be upset.

Foodle just ignore them, you're not gonna change their mind because they have an agenda which is clear as hell.  We all know that there are millions of TES fans looking forward to ESO as evident by the Facebook likes (over a million) tons of positive feedback since the 1st press event in October, many more positive hype since Pax.  Not to mention the myriad of supportive and eager fans on very popular websites like TESOF and Tamriel Foundry  and the many Podcasts which get rave reviews.

Just trying to support the devs in what they have done. Want them to know there are some fans out here who love what they are doing. =-)

  Xstatic912

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/11
Posts: 367

4/11/13 8:52:04 PM#256
If this game end game uses a non raid format to get the best gear, then I'll play. But as a current subscriber of WOW I honestly don't see myself raiding again for the best gear, no matter how great the game is. tired of the politics
  Anakami

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 101

4/12/13 2:32:25 AM#257
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Pixel_Jockey
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Pixel_Jockey
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

And why cant Mario still be fixing pipes? Forget this side scrolling idea where he saves his girlfriend Peach. You know what lets rewind everything and go back to 8 bit graphics. Thats how TES started. Lets rewind WoW and have it only be a RTS. By your standard we would miss out on a lot of great games that started from something else. 

What? So confused. WTB more logic.

 

Replying to what you said in red. Games grow and change and just because the single player game had it does not mean its needs to be in the MMO. Sure over all it needs to feel like TES. It must have story and lore to fit but Locked factions does not break this game. Just like any video game that started out as a RTS or a single player RPG. When it makes a jump into 3D or a MMO or any other medium. Its time for change to fit that. Just like a book made into a movie it cant keep all the same elements. 

Except they could keep all the same elements and give you what you want at the same time, but they choose not to. Everyone could be happy here, they CHOOSE not to do it, not that it can't be done.

Thats what kills me from people on your side of this. You think you speak for all TES fans and you dont. I am a HUGE TES fan. Been playing them from the days of 8 Bit games. As a TES fan I LOVE this current design. At best if they remade the game there would be a different set of fans who would be happy and another set that would be upset.

Foodle just ignore them, you're not gonna change their mind because they have an agenda which is clear as hell.  We all know that there are millions of TES fans looking forward to ESO as evident by the Facebook likes (over a million) tons of positive feedback since the 1st press event in October, many more positive hype since Pax.  Not to mention the myriad of supportive and eager fans on very popular websites like TESOF and Tamriel Foundry  and the many Podcasts which get rave reviews.

Just trying to support the devs in what they have done. Want them to know there are some fans out here who love what they are doing. =-)

I can respect that, Nan. I am doing the very same, letting the devs know that I care about their game and like whatI've seen so far, except that I also point out what I don't like and how it would keep me from playing it. The others who feel like me are also giving suggestions how they think changes could be made that allow for more options and will in the end reach more fans of TES.

Dismissing them simply as fanatics, as having an evil agenda that shall destroy the game, etc. is easy.

Acknowledging that they have a different view on ESO and be done with it seems a lot harder, for some reason :)

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3463

4/12/13 10:19:26 AM#258
Originally posted by Xstatic912
If this game end game uses a non raid format to get the best gear, then I'll play. But as a current subscriber of WOW I honestly don't see myself raiding again for the best gear, no matter how great the game is. tired of the politics

Then you will like this game as it stands now. 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/12/13 10:56:47 AM#259


Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by jtcgs Didnt need to read past "Coincidence? Probably not." to know this is just an article being written due to MONEY being given to them.   There isnt a single person, not even hardcore DaoC fans that can argue that it is not a coincidence because THERE ARE NO DAOC FACTIONS LOCKED BEHIND AN INVISIBLE WALL clones out there, no one but the makers of that game thought it was a good enough idea to do it in another game... Coincidence? Duh. No amount of articles is going to change the minds of the TES fans that have been arguing against this crap move on every single TES site, its a small box being made for a game meant for an open world. Deal with that fact, and the fact you are not going to change the minds of those pissed off with anything less than a TES MMO with an open world.  
They will deal with it by sleeping on beds made of soft, cushy money. Seriously. It won't be like that cheap, paper money we get. It will be soft and fluffy and it will sing them to sleep at night. People make a big deal out of the 'ideals' behind games, and whether they are 'true' MMOs, 'true' TES games (true 'SW' games), etc., but it's the basic game mechanics that kill the games. Are the environments static, or do they look lively? Is there plenty of content at release covering linear, repeatable and nonlinear activities? Do all the buttons work? Do the graphics look good and consistent? If they get all the basic gaming stuff nailed down, the rules that aren't like the single player games won't matter that much. It sounds like they've gotten the basics nailed down. At least I haven't seen any complaints about that stuff yet. The recurring complaint is that the game won't be like the single player games. Well, yeah. It's an MMO. It won't be anything like the single player games. ** edit ** I think of it like this. They could write it using the "Man With The Iron Fists" method, where they try to be just like the predecessors, and fail. "Man With The Iron Fists" tries to recreate old Kung Fu movies and tries too hard to be too much like those old Kung Fu movies. It's just bad. The other method is the "Evil Dead" method, where the people making the movie make a movie that stands on its own, but references enough of the predecessor that you know where it's coming from. If you've never seen the predecessor, and don't care about it, you still get a good product, but if you've seen the predecessor, the movie is even better. It sounds like Zenimax is going with the "Evil Dead" method, which doesn't guarantee success, but it at least avoids the guaranteed failure of the "Man With The Iron Fists" method.  
I could imagine boat loads more money if they focused more on the Elder Scrolls side of the game than they do the Dark Age of Camelot side.  Actually, I don't have to imagine, we know the relative sales of DAoC and the Elder Scrolls games, don't we.  Even more so if they allow for fully realized end game PvE that lets you play and progress without having to do a single bit of PvP.
Well of course you can imagine it that way. Why would you imagine it in a way that doesn't support your point of view? That doesn't even make sense. There are single player RPG that sold worse than DAoC and those games did not have PvP. The argument that writing TESO without PvP or without three faction PvP would result in greater sales isn't a good one. For one, it involves changing history (rewriting TESO) to support the argument. I do agree about the PvE for long term players. Having a PvP focus is going to limit the audience and as dynamic as PvP can be, it gets repetitive. I would love to see a really good PvE focused end game. I don't really think I'll see it, but I'd like to. For that matter, I'd like to see more of a sandbox focus in a game with the budget that TESO has. I don't think I'll see it, but I'd like to. Anyway, their money is going to make them happy. The game will follow the same sales and retention arcs as pretty much every other video game, but it's going to make them boatloads of money. Again, this is assuming they get the basic game mechanics down pat. If something like their version of talent trees is copied from WoW, and doesn't work right, none of the other stuff in the game really matters.  
You're the one not making sense.  The point is that DAoC did not sell that many boxes in comparison to even the lowest rated ES game.  PvP was not my factor in that, it is merely the numbers, period.  Which audience has the potential to make them more money, RvR fanatics or ES fanatics?  I'd say the numbers are pretty darn obvious.



Every MMO aside from maybe WoW sold fewer copies than TES. It doesn't make sense to single out DAoC when every MMO bar one had the same performance relative to TES regardless of the game mechanics used in those MMOs. You're saying that the RvR of DAoC lead to DAoC having a weaker sales record than TES. That's a bad argument. If you're going to go on about sales, then it would make a more sense to say TESO will struggle because it's an MMO and because it's a single platform game, not because it has game mechanics from DAoC. It would even make some sense to say that the game will struggle because the game play is a divergence from TES game play. Though, that gets into the game struggling because it's an MMO since being an MMO is the reason behind the game play being different from the existing TES games.

You're assuming that "RvR Fanatics" and "ES Fanatics" are two separate groups of people. You're also assuming that the "Fanatics" are the biggest portion of both of those audiences. If two million of the many millions of people who play the TES games shrug about TESO being an MMO and shrug about the RvR, then none of the differences with TES matter and none of the similarities to DAoC matter. The only thing that matters is how well they execute their product. Given the recent history of MMOs, that's going to be their biggest hurdle.

They're still going to make a boatload of money. It doesn't matter if they might make more money by avoiding DAoC mechanics, because to prove that point you'd need to revise history by writing TESO without DAoC mechanics. This can't happen so even making the argument is pointless. Just because it's "obvious" to you doesn't mean it's obvious to reality in general.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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