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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

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329 posts found
  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3266

Poacher killer.

4/11/13 5:38:37 PM#41
Originally posted by tixylix

 

It hasn't, Dayz has showed me that many aspects of these old skool MMOs are still what I like and what a lot of people like. 

Yeah, DayZ's wild success really exposed the fact (one that many on this site seem to desperately fear to be true) that many gamers are indeed interested in huge gaming worlds with harsh death penalties.

It will be fascinating to see how things unfold when the standalone is released.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

4/11/13 5:42:11 PM#42
Originally posted by Jakdstripper

the problme is not with MMOs, it's with you.......... (and me, and everyone that plays them).

MMOs and games in general have never been this good, never been so varied, never been this advanced, never been so widespread, never been so incredibly immersive . today's mmos are insanely better than the early mmos.

 

why all the malcontent?

 

simply because we are not the same mmo players that were playing games 20 years ago. those same players that without a computer would sit arround a table and tell stories and roll dice over D&D books. we no longer want to emagine, no longer want to wait, no longer want to work at it, no longer want to make do, no longer want to create any sort of bonds with others, no longer willing to help.

We just want to consume. we want it all, want it perfect, want it now, want it free, and it better never get boring or so help me wallet.....

.....we are the problem. the new generation of gamers that has has never had higher expectaction and less patience. We are spoiled beyond understanding, and therfore doomed to never be sattisfied regardless of how good we have it.

 

although way to many MMOs imho have the diorama effect.. where it's basically a very static world with mobs just placed in packs all over the world waiting to get slaughtered.. Tera would be the pinnacle of this issue in a mainstream game imho and it's an immediate turn off for me in a game

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4763

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/11/13 5:49:02 PM#43
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Jakdstripper

the problme is not with MMOs, it's with you.......... (and me, and everyone that plays them).

MMOs and games in general have never been this good, never been so varied, never been this advanced, never been so widespread, never been so incredibly immersive . today's mmos are insanely better than the early mmos.

 

why all the malcontent?

 

simply because we are not the same mmo players that were playing games 20 years ago. those same players that without a computer would sit arround a table and tell stories and roll dice over D&D books. we no longer want to emagine, no longer want to wait, no longer want to work at it, no longer want to make do, no longer want to create any sort of bonds with others, no longer willing to help.

We just want to consume. we want it all, want it perfect, want it now, want it free, and it better never get boring or so help me wallet.....

.....we are the problem. the new generation of gamers that has has never had higher expectaction and less patience. We are spoiled beyond understanding, and therfore doomed to never be sattisfied regardless of how good we have it.

 

although way to many MMOs imho have the diorama effect.. where it's basically a very static world with mobs just placed in packs all over the world waiting to get slaughtered.. Tera would be the pinnacle of this issue in a mainstream game imho and it's an immediate turn off for me in a game

 The only thing I would change is, it is not just new generations of gamers.  It is video gamers in general are spoiled beyond understanding, with higher expectations, less patience. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

4/11/13 5:52:53 PM#44

Most developers are probably just making the games they are told to make. As much as I want to say MMOs are terrible and developers suck, I'm guessing they are given a vision and told to make that vision into (virtual) reality. How many developers out there have full control over the direction of a game? Probably far less than we think. That might be also why many well known creators and developers are going to kickstarter to get funding from fans instead of suits so that they can follow their own vision and have full control over the direction of their product.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  JYCowboy

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/05
Posts: 660

SWG: Jess Youngstar(CIA)-AhaziDCUO: Blue Horizon(CIA)STO: John West(USS Texas)NCC-91836

4/12/13 10:14:52 AM#45
Originally posted by Jakdstripper

the problme is not with MMOs, it's with you.......... (and me, and everyone that plays them).

MMOs and games in general have never been this good, never been so varied, never been this advanced, never been so widespread, never been so incredibly immersive . today's mmos are insanely better than the early mmos.

 

why all the malcontent?

 

simply because we are not the same mmo players that were playing games 20 years ago. those same players that without a computer would sit arround a table and tell stories and roll dice over D&D books. we no longer want to emagine, no longer want to wait, no longer want to work at it, no longer want to make do, no longer want to create any sort of bonds with others, no longer willing to help.

We just want to consume. we want it all, want it perfect, want it now, want it free, and it better never get boring or so help me wallet.....

.....we are the problem. the new generation of gamers that has has never had higher expectaction and less patience. We are spoiled beyond understanding, and therfore doomed to never be sattisfied regardless of how good we have it.

 

The problem doesn't end with the gamer.  Sure a good crossection of demographics read just like you discribe but there are still folks who want to care and be challenged and work for a justified reward.  SWG taught us that with its Alpha Class Jedi.  That group of folks, however, was defined as small making a niche game when compared to WOW.  Investors want to avoid that trap so they forbid VW content.  "Just make a game."  The result is a game like TOR that looks great but is lifeless to veteran MMO players.

Investors do not want to spend on building worlds if they can cut the cost and developers find VW systems hard to create and manage in light of distractive content.  This all creates a cycle of keeping devs employed (they believe) for content while providing quick short term returns to investors all on a ticking timebomb of player expectation.  Thats where the market is today. IMHO

  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2180

4/12/13 10:18:25 AM#46
A game you can make to be very inclusive.  With a virtual world every choice the developer makes tends to alienate a very large portion of the gaming population.  This means you can make a game for a mass of people but VW tend to be nitch and have problems getting the number of players to justify the development costs.
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18956

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

4/12/13 10:24:57 AM#47
Originally posted by Horusra
A game you can make to be very inclusive.  With a virtual world every choice the developer makes tends to alienate a very large portion of the gaming population.  This means you can make a game for a mass of people but VW tend to be nitch and have problems getting the number of players to justify the development costs.

Very well put.  Back in the early days of MMORPG's, I would show them to my friends and they'd largely recoil in horror, saying they had no interest in living in an alternate reality, they had enough with the one they current resided in.

They always wanted them to have more "game" to them, and over time developers not only listened but succeeded in bringing the genre to the masses.

Of course, we lost many things along the way, apparently one being longevity but that could be more to do with the proliferation of titles we now have. 

There probably is still a very large number of people who play MMORPG's long term, but they are scattered all over the place in dozens of games.  It's just their numbers pale to the number of folks who jump in for a short while and then move on.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  JYCowboy

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/05
Posts: 660

SWG: Jess Youngstar(CIA)-AhaziDCUO: Blue Horizon(CIA)STO: John West(USS Texas)NCC-91836

4/12/13 10:47:15 AM#48
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Horusra
A game you can make to be very inclusive.  With a virtual world every choice the developer makes tends to alienate a very large portion of the gaming population.  This means you can make a game for a mass of people but VW tend to be nitch and have problems getting the number of players to justify the development costs.

Very well put.  Back in the early days of MMORPG's, I would show them to my friends and they'd largely recoil in horror, saying they had no interest in living in an alternate reality, they had enough with the one they current resided in.

They always wanted them to have more "game" to them, and over time developers not only listened but succeeded in bringing the genre to the masses.

Of course, we lost many things along the way, apparently one being longevity but that could be more to do with the proliferation of titles we now have. 

There probably is still a very large number of people who play MMORPG's long term, but they are scattered all over the place in dozens of games.  It's just their numbers pale to the number of folks who jump in for a short while and then move on.

 

I guess the masses see MMO's like smoking and drinking.  In moderation its OK.  Just don't become addicted or no one will want to be around you.

  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2180

4/12/13 11:22:01 AM#49
Originally posted by JYCowboy
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Horusra
A game you can make to be very inclusive.  With a virtual world every choice the developer makes tends to alienate a very large portion of the gaming population.  This means you can make a game for a mass of people but VW tend to be nitch and have problems getting the number of players to justify the development costs.

Very well put.  Back in the early days of MMORPG's, I would show them to my friends and they'd largely recoil in horror, saying they had no interest in living in an alternate reality, they had enough with the one they current resided in.

They always wanted them to have more "game" to them, and over time developers not only listened but succeeded in bringing the genre to the masses.

Of course, we lost many things along the way, apparently one being longevity but that could be more to do with the proliferation of titles we now have. 

There probably is still a very large number of people who play MMORPG's long term, but they are scattered all over the place in dozens of games.  It's just their numbers pale to the number of folks who jump in for a short while and then move on.

 

I guess the masses see MMO's like smoking and drinking.  In moderation its OK.  Just don't become addicted or no one will want to be around you.

Seems to be more like this....I like what I like and everything else is crap and I will loudly tell everyone my feelings till a game dies.  No other MMO's will survive if they do not fit my select view of how a MMO should be.  When that game exist I will play it for 100 hours straight a die in my chair because the game is better than life.

  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

4/12/13 11:39:05 AM#50
The old ways of playing these games are dead. We who liked to play them that way are old... I have been semi retired for years from this genre.. only playing EvE from time to time (EvE is like Florida, where old MMO people go to die). To the OP let the next  generation have their games, we are to old we will never understand what they think is fun....  And its not worth trying to figure it out to be honest...
  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2180

4/12/13 12:03:54 PM#51
Originally posted by Zlayer77
The old ways of playing these games are dead. We who liked to play them that way are old... I have been semi retired for years from this genre.. only playing EvE from time to time (EvE is like Florida, where old MMO people go to die). To the OP let the next  generation have their games, we are to old we will never understand what they think is fun....  And its not worth trying to figure it out to be honest...

Wish there was a PvE oriented version of Eve for those that do not like Sandbox PvP games.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3675

4/12/13 1:07:28 PM#52
Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by Zlayer77
The old ways of playing these games are dead. We who liked to play them that way are old... I have been semi retired for years from this genre.. only playing EvE from time to time (EvE is like Florida, where old MMO people go to die). To the OP let the next  generation have their games, we are to old we will never understand what they think is fun....  And its not worth trying to figure it out to be honest...

Wish there was a PvE oriented version of Eve for those that do not like Sandbox PvP games.

Same here, although I wouldn't play it unless you could get out of the damn ship.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
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  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10535

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

4/12/13 1:27:33 PM#53

Everyone knows there is a market for virtual worlds. I don't think anyone can dispute that there are people who would buy into a virtual world game. Barring my post above, but I wasn't as clear as I could have been. There are just some things that stand in the way of virtual worlds being the standard.

* There are more people in general who just want to play games versus people who just want to visit virtual worlds. There's a bunch of overlap there, but in general there are more game players versus virtual world visitors.

* Virtual worlds are more expensive to produce. A virtual world is more complex than a fairly static game world, and it also has to be capable of responding to players without breaking anything.

* Virtual worlds are a moving target. As technology gets better and as players experience more complex game worlds, their expectations for what makes up a 'virtual world' expands and shifts. For some people a virtual world has to include virtual weather. For others mob migration or life cycles would be a key feature. There's not nearly as much clarity or consensus about what makes up a virtual world compared to the clarity and consensus on what makes up a game.

* The developer still has to write the game elements anyway. If a developer creates a very fleshed out virtual world, there are going to be game elements that have to be written on top of the virtual world elements. The game elements have to take the virtual world mechanics into consideration, making the game elements more complex than they would be if the world was a relatively static world.

It all adds up to a climate where as the projects get more expensive, virtual world features become less desirable over pure game features because the game features will be less expensive to produce, and more likely to make money.

So while virtual worlds would be better, would the difference be enough to cover the additional cost of producing them? Hard to say, but it looks like to me that MMO developers are struggling to develop games that have pretty static virtual worlds being the basis for their games. The developers don't seem to be ready to take on an MMO with a fully fleshed out virtual world, on top of making a fully fleshed out game.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1354

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

4/12/13 2:28:26 PM#54


Originally posted by Zlayer77
The old ways of playing these games are dead. We who liked to play them that way are old... I have been semi retired for years from this genre.. only playing EvE from time to time (EvE is like Florida, where old MMO people go to die). To the OP let the next  generation have their games, we are to old we will never understand what they think is fun....  And its not worth trying to figure it out to be honest...


Sorry that the WoW clones being spammed at us have jaded you to this extent. But saying that games should only be marketed towards the next generation is silly. Why sell to one demographic; one which is oversaturated at present; when you can sell to several?

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

4/12/13 3:03:09 PM#55
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

@ Title, I agree. I prefer a VOW (virtual online world) over just an OG (online game)

However I think there should be both. I think there is room for both

I think that name actually won my new acronym thread poll

 

VOW I mean. But of course no one but a few people bothered to use it. I'm glad other people either independently decided on it or heard of it.

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 489

4/12/13 4:56:11 PM#56

IMHO.

 

To many road blocks and to many issues to iron out in making a true sandbox MOVW. 
 
 
My ideas were to give the user a world and let them build it out of basic building blocks which they have to harvest the materials and craft into basic items (logs, stone blocks, ore nodes and plants, animals and so on. These exist in the world design) Allow some terraforming of most of the world but have a few set areas which are cities to get some basic questing and basic materials. Make a few rules hard coded in that can’t be broken (such as no PvP except in specific areas or even FFA, no levels, a bunch of skills to choose from). It is all limited only by how much fame one earned. Give just basic mobs to kill for materials and quests) then let other users in to make the rest themselves. Write their own quests from the existing history and lore, make their own dungeons and special monsters, even make their own lore and run their own factions. Give the users the tools in in the system to do it themselves.
 
 
It turned into something I didn’t foresee because many can’t seem to get past the ideas of a game design and the issues of one guy building such a world was never going to happen. Especially one guy that does not have the time or money.  
 
 
No engine exist at this time that can allow the tools to be made directly into the game design BUT it is possible. It just requires a good coder.  The technology is here today. 
 
Maybe someone someday will do it.
  Jemcrystal

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1310

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

4/12/13 6:57:27 PM#57
Originally posted by mmoguy43

I don't want plain virtual worlds.

I don't want plain games either, not for the ideal MMORPG anyway.

I want a game within a virtual world. Something like Skyrim and it doesn't even have to have a massive amount of players in a zone.

Basically...Fun game, lots of variety and options. And a world that brings a lot of longevity and content that doesn't get old in the first play through nor is the progression short with the level cap the raiding/grinding end.

Agree.  More variety especially.  Why must there be only one way to play.  Zones exist.  Can't they try different styles in different zones rather than making the entire game same-o same-o?

Everyone knows the world is messed up. But you don't deserve to call yourself a human being if you have not masturbated at least once a day. Go to your room and fix yourself before you try to fix the world.

  tixylix

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1109

 
OP  4/13/13 1:18:25 PM#58
They need to use engines like UE or CryEngine where they can easily port their game onto the latest build, it would be a lot easier than making their own engine which would take so many resources to create a new version. I mean CCP are lucky because their assets are easy to update, most games aren't lucky to be basically an avatar with a picture background. 
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5971

4/13/13 2:04:13 PM#59

OP explain how anything you argued for, is a trait of VW. 

Lesser looting? How is that a VW trait? How is that good?

  Nerfmeh

Novice Member

Joined: 9/15/11
Posts: 36

4/13/13 4:25:59 PM#60
I really dont think that we can get that old magic feeling we had with games like UO , EQ even with WoW only by going back to the old roots. MMO's need to evolve...but the thing is they are doing it in the WRONG way and are not catering to us ( the mmorpg genre fans). MMO's arent even loyal to their genre name nowadays since 90% of them dont even have the MMO part...its sad really -_-
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