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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Crafting without PVP?

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  Wesseler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/07
Posts: 5

 
OP  4/11/13 11:36:35 AM#1
I was looking over the Camelot Unchained kickstarter and it hit me that the few mmos that have have nearly all items being custom made by the players are pvp games.  CU itself will have nothing but pvp.  Old UO was a free for all same with EVE, though I admit to not know alot about the EVE crafting system.  Then there's Salem that's perma death ffa pvp.  So my questiong is why are  the games that have a focus on a strong crafting system also free for all pk fests?  The only one I can think of that isn't is Tale in the Desert and that game's ten years old. 
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6673

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

4/11/13 11:52:08 AM#2

FFXI has maybe the robust crafting system of any game and it is a 99.9% PVE game.

EQ2 has a ton of crafting and is not pvp either.

Wow has crafting and you can choose just like in EQ2.

These pvp games do not have the crafting depth they claim to have,i doubt any will surpass FFXi's.

there are a handfull of games that add in vehicle crafting which i like,example ships and motrobikes and cars ect ect.Vanguard is one that doesn't involve pvp.

An recently older game like Fallen Earth also had a lot of crafting with vehicles and such and although was pvp oriented,it was not a must.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
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  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1313

We live for The One, we die for The One.

4/11/13 12:32:12 PM#3
Originally posted by Wesseler
I was looking over the Camelot Unchained kickstarter and it hit me that the few mmos that have have nearly all items being custom made by the players are pvp games.  CU itself will have nothing but pvp.  Old UO was a free for all same with EVE, though I admit to not know alot about the EVE crafting system.  Then there's Salem that's perma death ffa pvp.  So my questiong is why are  the games that have a focus on a strong crafting system also free for all pk fests?  The only one I can think of that isn't is Tale in the Desert and that game's ten years old. 

because games with strong crafting system are usually sandbox games and for some reason (which is imo steaming from UO) the devs of sandbox games think that sandbox game must have open pvp.

but there are games which have strong/complex crafting and are not pvp

Wurm Online - has pure PVE servers

A Tale in the Desert - doesnt have combat at all

Istaria, Vanguard - dont have PVP at all

Ryzom - i think pvp is limited to certain areas, not 100% sure tho

Haven & Hearth - has FFA PVP with permadeath, but i did played it quite some time and didnt pvp even once

 

edit:

also Asheron Call 2 has imo great crafting and no open pvp

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

4/11/13 12:35:47 PM#4
Originally posted by Wesseler
I was looking over the Camelot Unchained kickstarter and it hit me that the few mmos that have have nearly all items being custom made by the players are pvp games.  CU itself will have nothing but pvp.  Old UO was a free for all same with EVE, though I admit to not know alot about the EVE crafting system.  Then there's Salem that's perma death ffa pvp.  So my questiong is why are  the games that have a focus on a strong crafting system also free for all pk fests?  The only one I can think of that isn't is Tale in the Desert and that game's ten years old. 

UO was NOT a PvP game,  It was a virtual world with PvP in it.  Do not sully it's name with your misinformation.

 

I guess I will answer your question though,  

 

Dying and losing your gear is part of why crafters are so important in those games.  You always have to go back to them, so they can literally become powerful simply by crafting.  It only makes sense, with a design as such, to allow crafters to make almost everything in the game.  The first point lends itself to a strong player economy.  Then you have item durability, which you also see in most of those games that you mentioned.  It's just another design that works well with a crafter-centric economy.

 

Gear treadmill games do not go this route because their game is designed for raiders and achievers.  So, most of the best gear is located on a bosses loot table instead of a crafters skill list.  There is a middle ground, meterials from bosses which need to be given to crafters.  But that doesn't work either because these games also allow you to master any crafting profession while being a great fighter as well.  Which is another reason why the games you mentioned use a skill cap system, or at least some of them did.  They don't allow you to be as great of a warrior, and a great crafter at the same time.  Whch all comes back to needing dedicated crafters in a true player economy.

 

Pretty easy actually.  If you've ever played a game with a system like that.

  Wesseler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/07
Posts: 5

 
OP  4/11/13 1:11:34 PM#5

"UO was NOT a PvP game,  It was a virtual world with PvP in it.  Do not sully it's name with your misinformation."

 

I don't know when you started playing UO, but being an old dude, I started playing a few days after launch.  People wouldn't stand close to each other for fear of being pick pocketed, you would not speak to someone outside of town as they were likely to blast you to death while you were typing a response.  I don't remember the nams off hand, but there was a town that had npc guards near a mine that had npc guards, but between the two was an unguard patch that was a gauntlet where roving gank squads of 10+ killed and looted any miner that happen to step out of the guarded zone.  That's not a PvP game?  Maybe you played it later after they changes or something, but at launch UO was a gank fest.

 

Thanks to Wizardry and Benedikt for giving real responses to the question without the indignant chest thumping.

WOW and EQ's crafting are not really what I was thinking of, as the crafting items are at best stepping stones to the more powerful dropped/vendor items.  I admit to never playing FFXi before, but I'll do some reading into their crafting system.  Wurm Online is close, but the interface is just terrible, unless they've made big changes to to in the last year.  Istaria and Vanguard have raid drop based  right?  I could be wrong, haven't played either.  I forgot that Asheron Call 2 was back, still tend to have it crossed out in my mind.  I take peeks are some of you two's suggestions, thanks.

 

 

  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1313

We live for The One, we die for The One.

4/11/13 1:21:19 PM#6
Originally posted by Wesseler
 Istaria and Vanguard have raid drop based  right?

 

istaria afaik doesnt have raids at all, other then "raids" on roaming world monster and even that i am not sure of

Vanguard does, but i am not sure if/how much stronger raid items are over best crafted ones

 

truth is, i didnt got to "end game" in either of those games, i am taking my time, since for me getting to end game = end of the game (i quit because i like character progression and exploring new places, not doing raids/dailies/pvp and other "endgame" activities)

  Wesseler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/07
Posts: 5

 
OP  4/11/13 1:24:50 PM#7
Ahh istaria, now I remember it.  Played some back when it was Horizons.  For the dragons of course couldn't help myself.  I remember chunking tons of wood planks into my horde, hah.  I bet alot has changed since then.
  anemo

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/10
Posts: 699

4/11/13 1:44:13 PM#8
Because PvPers like the reassurance that their gear is replacable, and that "prey" will be going for resources.

Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

"There are still vast swaths of our planet's surface in which it's surprisingly easy to lose things. Even a ship the size of a large building." Richard Fisher

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/11/13 4:31:48 PM#9

It's partially a matter of interest, and partially market status-quo.

It's also partially a matter of whether you have blinders on to the rest of gaming.  Plenty of games which are essentially massive crafting sims exist.  Sim City.  The Sims.  Minecraft/Terrarria.  Puzzle Pirates. The Guild. If you want crafting-focused gameplay, there's a fair amount of choice out there.  It's only when you insist it also has to be an MMO and it also has to be specifically the same type of sword and armor crafting of fantasy MMORPGs that you start to limit your options.

(Which comes back around to the interest and market status-quo bits, really.  There's plenty of interest in crafting, just not with those very specific MMO and Sword-crafting requirements tacked on.)

  Venger

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

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4/11/13 5:05:47 PM#10
I agree there is quite a void with this game style, maybe EQ Next will fill this void.  But I don't know much about it at all.
  Wesseler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/07
Posts: 5

 
OP  4/11/13 5:22:09 PM#11
Originally posted by Axehilt

It's partially a matter of interest, and partially market status-quo.

It's also partially a matter of whether you have blinders on to the rest of gaming.  Plenty of games which are essentially massive crafting sims exist.  Sim City.  The Sims.  Minecraft/Terrarria.  Puzzle Pirates. The Guild. If you want crafting-focused gameplay, there's a fair amount of choice out there.  It's only when you insist it also has to be an MMO and it also has to be specifically the same type of sword and armor crafting of fantasy MMORPGs that you start to limit your options.

(Which comes back around to the interest and market status-quo bits, really.  There's plenty of interest in crafting, just not with those very specific MMO and Sword-crafting requirements tacked on.)

I'm not sure what kind of crafting a sim city game has, more just buying buildings, but yes I came to the MMORPG.COM forums to talk about MMOs, not Pokemon. FTL, or The Witcher. 

The only of the games you've listed I haven't played is The Guild.  And on the sword crafting requirement, Eve was in my first post.  Fantasy MMOs are only brough up so much because they're so many of them.  I'd love to have a Wild West mmo where you could take care of a farm, herd cattle, fight off bandits, like in Red Dead Redemption (Though that is super politically incorrect, I played cowboys vs. indians when I was a kid, again old.)  I love the Harvest Moon and Rune Factory games, and no I don't pay to click cows in farmville.  Or hell, why is there not a full 3D pokemon rip off mmo?  Surely that would print money.  Maybe Star Citizen can ease that theme gulf a bit, as long as they put in that PvP slider they've talked about.

But back to the crafting topic.  Puzzle Pirates is a pvp game, unless they started up some non-pvp oceans in the last couple years, I haven't check back in awhile.  For a crafting system I'm talking about old Star Wars Galaxies stuff.  Making the individual parts of a gun/druid/starship and putting it together, being able to add a varble effects and name it.  SWG was not a ffa gank fest that UO was, you could run around and fight npcs, craft, build a shop in a town and sell stuff, pre NGE of course.

Maybe Venger, wish they'd tell us anything about EQ Next by now, hah.

 

 

  General-Zod

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 550

Kneel.

4/11/13 5:29:50 PM#12
Originally posted by Wesseler
Originally posted by Axehilt

It's partially a matter of interest, and partially market status-quo.

It's also partially a matter of whether you have blinders on to the rest of gaming.  Plenty of games which are essentially massive crafting sims exist.  Sim City.  The Sims.  Minecraft/Terrarria.  Puzzle Pirates. The Guild. If you want crafting-focused gameplay, there's a fair amount of choice out there.  It's only when you insist it also has to be an MMO and it also has to be specifically the same type of sword and armor crafting of fantasy MMORPGs that you start to limit your options.

(Which comes back around to the interest and market status-quo bits, really.  There's plenty of interest in crafting, just not with those very specific MMO and Sword-crafting requirements tacked on.)

I'm not sure what kind of crafting a sim city game has, more just buying buildings, but yes I came to the MMORPG.COM forums to talk about MMOs, not Pokemon. FTL, or The Witcher. 

The only of the games you've listed I haven't played is The Guild.  And on the sword crafting requirement, Eve was in my first post.  Fantasy MMOs are only brough up so much because they're so many of them.  I'd love to have a Wild West mmo where you could take care of a farm, herd cattle, fight off bandits, like in Red Dead Redemption (Though that is super politically incorrect, I played cowboys vs. indians when I was a kid, again old.)  I love the Harvest Moon and Rune Factory games, and no I don't pay to click cows in farmville.  Or hell, why is there not a full 3D pokemon rip off mmo?  Surely that would print money.  Maybe Star Citizen can ease that theme gulf a bit, as long as they put in that PvP slider they've talked about.

But back to the crafting topic.  Puzzle Pirates is a pvp game, unless they started up some non-pvp oceans in the last couple years, I haven't check back in awhile.  For a crafting system I'm talking about old Star Wars Galaxies stuff.  Making the individual parts of a gun/druid/starship and putting it together, being able to add a varble effects and name it.  SWG was not a ffa gank fest that UO was, you could run around and fight npcs, craft, build a shop in a town and sell stuff, pre NGE of course.

Maybe Venger, wish they'd tell us anything about EQ Next by now, hah.

 

 

We may never see crafting that intricate in any pve base mmo again .. SWG crafting was one of a kind.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/11/13 5:46:46 PM#13
Istaria,virtually everything is player made.  No PvP at all. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/11/13 6:29:21 PM#14
Originally posted by Wesseler

I'm not sure what kind of crafting a sim city game has, more just buying buildings, but yes I came to the MMORPG.COM forums to talk about MMOs, not Pokemon. FTL, or The Witcher. 

The only of the games you've listed I haven't played is The Guild.  And on the sword crafting requirement, Eve was in my first post.  Fantasy MMOs are only brough up so much because they're so many of them.  I'd love to have a Wild West mmo where you could take care of a farm, herd cattle, fight off bandits, like in Red Dead Redemption (Though that is super politically incorrect, I played cowboys vs. indians when I was a kid, again old.)  I love the Harvest Moon and Rune Factory games, and no I don't pay to click cows in farmville.  Or hell, why is there not a full 3D pokemon rip off mmo?  Surely that would print money.  Maybe Star Citizen can ease that theme gulf a bit, as long as they put in that PvP slider they've talked about.

But back to the crafting topic.  Puzzle Pirates is a pvp game, unless they started up some non-pvp oceans in the last couple years, I haven't check back in awhile.  For a crafting system I'm talking about old Star Wars Galaxies stuff.  Making the individual parts of a gun/druid/starship and putting it together, being able to add a varble effects and name it.  SWG was not a ffa gank fest that UO was, you could run around and fight npcs, craft, build a shop in a town and sell stuff, pre NGE of course.

Maybe Venger, wish they'd tell us anything about EQ Next by now, hah. 

Again, if you can't see Sim City as creating (crafting) a city then you have blinders on to the rest of gaming.

It shouldn't be necessary to say that with the lion's share of MMORPGs having crafting, and several having deep crafting, and many many other non-MMORPGs being entirely about crafting, that there are few players left whose needs aren't being serviced by at least one (and probably many) of the games which already exist.

So it shouldn't be a surprise that a game with your precise parameters doesn't exist.  ("Isn't it stupid how there's no cowboy MMORPGs with a focus on farming and bar-running?"  "Well uh, no...that's a weirdly specific type of game actually.")

  injenu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 144

4/11/13 7:02:27 PM#15
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Wesseler

I'm not sure what kind of crafting a sim city game has, more just buying buildings, but yes I came to the MMORPG.COM forums to talk about MMOs, not Pokemon. FTL, or The Witcher. 

The only of the games you've listed I haven't played is The Guild.  And on the sword crafting requirement, Eve was in my first post.  Fantasy MMOs are only brough up so much because they're so many of them.  I'd love to have a Wild West mmo where you could take care of a farm, herd cattle, fight off bandits, like in Red Dead Redemption (Though that is super politically incorrect, I played cowboys vs. indians when I was a kid, again old.)  I love the Harvest Moon and Rune Factory games, and no I don't pay to click cows in farmville.  Or hell, why is there not a full 3D pokemon rip off mmo?  Surely that would print money.  Maybe Star Citizen can ease that theme gulf a bit, as long as they put in that PvP slider they've talked about.

But back to the crafting topic.  Puzzle Pirates is a pvp game, unless they started up some non-pvp oceans in the last couple years, I haven't check back in awhile.  For a crafting system I'm talking about old Star Wars Galaxies stuff.  Making the individual parts of a gun/druid/starship and putting it together, being able to add a varble effects and name it.  SWG was not a ffa gank fest that UO was, you could run around and fight npcs, craft, build a shop in a town and sell stuff, pre NGE of course.

Maybe Venger, wish they'd tell us anything about EQ Next by now, hah. 

Again, if you can't see Sim City as creating (crafting) a city then you have blinders on to the rest of gaming.

It shouldn't be necessary to say that with the lion's share of MMORPGs having crafting, and several having deep crafting, and many many other non-MMORPGs being entirely about crafting, that there are few players left whose needs aren't being serviced by at least one (and probably many) of the games which already exist.

So it shouldn't be a surprise that a game with your precise parameters doesn't exist.  ("Isn't it stupid how there's no cowboy MMORPGs with a focus on farming and bar-running?"  "Well uh, no...that's a weirdly specific type of game actually.")

It's funny but the first  thought that came to mind was SimCity tbh... But I didn't want to get into the whole semantics debate about what's considered an MMO. 

  Wesseler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/07
Posts: 5

 
OP  4/11/13 7:53:56 PM#16

Sim City as a crafting mmo... well I guess EA's post-launch rebranding of that debacle has had an effect. 

I don't understand how it is either, but I'll willing to take a look.  So, to make a building in Sim City you first need some resources... well, no.  You don't need wood. steel, glass.  If you want to make a park do you have to have a stock of trees and soil?  No, not really.  To make a building in Sim City, you select  the building you want from a menu, pay some money, then place it in the town.  That sounds like a vendor to me.  I don't see how any crafting is involved. 

Do you mean 'creafting' the whole city?  That's... so every game is a crafting game.  In God of War, you're able to spend blood on skills, so you are 'crafting' Kratos.  So God of War is a crafting rpg flight sim.  Somewhere you have to draw the line.

  Raithe-Nor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/07
Posts: 322

4/11/13 7:57:50 PM#17
Originally posted by injenu

It's funny but the first  thought that came to mind was SimCity tbh... But I didn't want to get into the whole semantics debate about what's considered an MMO. 

The answer to the OP's question lies in the "semantics" debate.  Note that there is no real semantics debate.  Those of us who know what Massively Multiplayer means and what it meant in ages past (it hasn't changed in meaning at all) have no issue with semantics.  It's merely people who are trying to obscure that meaning and history that have issues.

Massively multiplayer means hundreds of people playing in the same gaming "instance," or common interactive environment.  The reason why that was considered a plus instead of a negative was to simulate an entire fantasy world for the purpose of immersion and storytelling.  Note that if you were interested in preconfigured balanced PvP short-term scenarios, then massively multiplayer was not only unnecessary but completely undesired.

Crafting and gathering are not normally considered areas of interest for the purposes of making a game.  I am unable to think of even a single commercial gaming venture that exclusively involves repetitive actions to gather and create resources that aren't used for some other activity.  Their existence in MMOs isn't entirely necessary either, but can help to simulate a fantasy world in ways that pure adventuring cannot.  I personally find crafting in every MMO I've played to be boring and without interesting side effect.  You could simulate almost everything interesting about crafting by simply locating NPCs or terrain features that supply exclusive goods around a sandboxy world and allow their manipulation or control by local military authority.  Merchant would still be a viable and interesting role to play in the game world.

The real question is why do non-sandboxy themeparks include crafting?  That answer is also easy... because developers are confused, and because lots of people want sandbox elements in their themeparks.  MMO and RPG used to basically mean sandbox, so ideas like level advancement (when everything around you levels at the same rate - negating any need for it) and crafting are included simply because the developers are trying to appease customers that don't think alike and the developers don't understand at all.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/11/13 9:08:15 PM#18
Originally posted by Wesseler

Sim City as a crafting mmo... well I guess EA's post-launch rebranding of that debacle has had an effect. 

I don't understand how it is either, but I'll willing to take a look.  So, to make a building in Sim City you first need some resources... well, no.  You don't need wood. steel, glass.  If you want to make a park do you have to have a stock of trees and soil?  No, not really.  To make a building in Sim City, you select  the building you want from a menu, pay some money, then place it in the town.  That sounds like a vendor to me.  I don't see how any crafting is involved. 

Do you mean 'creafting' the whole city?  That's... so every game is a crafting game.  In God of War, you're able to spend blood on skills, so you are 'crafting' Kratos.  So God of War is a crafting rpg flight sim.  Somewhere you have to draw the line.

Well for starters it's clearly not an MMO.  It's small-scale multiplayer (at least it would be if Join Game ever listed a territory with open slots.)  But I wasn't even talking about multiplayer or not, just that it's obviously a Crafting Game.

Second, I guess you haven't played Sim City if you think every building is just flat-out purchased.  To create a high-density, high-wealth building you need the ingredients of high-capacity roads, actual traffic along those roads (because the building will only upgrade to your goal if the inhabitants are able to work to earn money), services to keep the building active, and both services and parks to increase the building's land value.  Fully half the buildings in your city are created this way, and most of your efforts in playing the game revolve around getting them upgraded and addressing the problems and needs related to them.

I don't really care where you draw the line.  Sim City is basically more about crafting than most MMORPGs mentioned in this thread (except ATITD.)

  Adamantine

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3316

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

4/12/13 2:23:44 AM#19
Originally posted by Benedikt

because games with strong crafting system are usually sandbox games and for some reason (which is imo steaming from UO) the devs of sandbox games think that sandbox game must have open pvp.

Well, I dont get this threads definition of "strong crafting system".

Lineage 2 had almost nothing but player craftable items, but it did not have a strong crafting system. It was actually very limited from the start and only got even worse afterwards. Grade A for example had only 4 different options for players to chose from - Dark Crystal, Tallum, Majestic, Nightmare. Grade S, the next one, only had ONE option.

While Vanguard has a strict separation between crafted and dropped items. Yet the crafting system is extremely flexible and allows all kinds of variations.

 

But why sandboxes are usually free for all pvp is very trivial to explain: these game are usually also skillbased and have a low focus on itemization. Meaning if you lose your equipment, its rather simple to replace. So you wont spend months in the game trying to quest for a specific item. Such a system can naturally also have free for all full loot pvp.

 

  Jemcrystal

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1317

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

4/12/13 3:55:48 AM#20
FFXI had (past tense because I no longer play) the best crafting system I've ever seen.  It also had the worse economy.  All it needed was a three digit limit on the Auction House and no Personal Shops.  And orcs to drop more than just a few gil.  And while I'm pointing out what it needed - no copy and paste landscaping and free chocobo whistles.  I would return to that game if they fixed those issues.

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