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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is 'instanced' a modern development?

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144 posts found
  Ramones274

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/04
Posts: 368

4/09/13 8:10:03 PM#21
Originally posted by DamonVile

I think it's a great feature in any mmo. While I do like to see people running around the world with me, the most imersion breaking aspect of any mmo is waiting in line to kill the big bad guy. How is he the bad guy when he's only alive for 5-10 seconds at a time ? what could he do in that time that makes him so bad ?

In an instanced zone I can switch channels and fight him the way he should be...spanwed and walking around being the bad guy.

I think you have this backwards. Thinking a big bad buy is always up walking around and waiting for you is the immersion breaking aspect. You should have to compete with others. That's the immersion.

There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.

  User Deleted
4/09/13 8:10:10 PM#22

Not quite sure I get your point? Terminology probably needs refining.

When you refer to instancing, are you talking about:

- Multiple instances of open world zones or shared dungeons.

- Zones.

- Group instances for dungeons .

- Solo instances for stories.

 

All of them serve a purpose.

- Multiple instances of open world areas is to protect the quality of gameplay for players, reducing lag.

- Zonelines and load screens are often needed due to the amount of data required to load, also going back to quality of gameplay.  This becomes even more necessary with higher quality games. Look at Vanguard, fully open world, but you get horrible tearing at chunk lines. Sometimes its just better to be zoned in and have higher resolution, more detailed graphics and voiced NPCs.

- Group instances are useful for preventing the bad side of player interactions, some prefer to be able to grief or compete, but many hate this.  Group instances allow the designers to set a challenge for a known number of players, without interferance from the outside world.

- Solo instances let game developers prevent the player with choices that will not impact on the outside world or other players enjoyment of their own personal story.

 

There is a point to all of them, if you don't like it thats fine, but its not lazy development or anything like that, they are there for a reason. I guess you were referring to having dungeons and zones, if you didnt have zones then the quality of the games would have to be significantly reduced to allow for that. Which is something that I am not happy to give up just for having a zoneless world.   

  Ramones274

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/04
Posts: 368

4/09/13 8:12:24 PM#23
Originally posted by jtcgs
[mod edit]

He wasn't saying instancing is new. He was saying, why does modern development seem to lean towards this ideology, which should be pretty much dated at this point. Instancing should be a thing of the past.

There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.

  TheJoda

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/10
Posts: 492

"Yes...... that's a Duck Staff of D00M!!!"

4/09/13 8:15:45 PM#24
It ruin the MM in MMO if u ask me.  There was nothing like zoning into a dungen in EQ to hear "TRAIN TO ZONE IN"..............or having to fight your way to camps to then out pull other groups.

....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

4/09/13 8:56:19 PM#25
With current technology phasing can eliminate the need for zones to stop over crowding. Not that it should, the point of an MMO is to play with others right? Zones themselves are good for allowing detailed environments to play on a wide variety of computers.

OP just look for games that have an open world like PWI. Try Vanguard for instance, there are a few titles out there. There are also many more coming that are currently in development :)
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

4/09/13 9:03:19 PM#26
Originally posted by Aelious
With current technology phasing can eliminate the need for zones to stop over crowding. Not that it should, the point of an MMO is to play with others right? Zones themselves are good for allowing detailed environments to play on a wide variety of computers.

OP just look for games that have an open world like PWI. Try Vanguard for instance, there are a few titles out there. There are also many more coming that are currently in development :)

like which? most upcomming games i have seen use instancing and zones in some way or another.. The repopulation is the only one I can think of.. although it will have instanced housing.. but will have non-instanced housing as well

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

4/09/13 9:17:17 PM#27
EQN based upon PS2
Pathfinder Online
Wildstar I think

Right of the top of my head. Others like Embers of Caerus, Camelot Unchained are not very close but intended to be open world.

There may be other titles I'm not thinking of but it's nice to see.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

4/09/13 9:17:52 PM#28
Oh and Origins of Malu
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

4/09/13 9:20:46 PM#29
Originally posted by Aelious
EQN based upon PS2
Pathfinder Online
Wildstar I think

Right of the top of my head. Others like Embers of Caerus, Camelot Unchained are not very close but intended to be open world.

There may be other titles I'm not thinking of but it's nice to see.

wildstar is not.. the rest are very far off and no concrete data is set on them at all.. we really know nothing on EQN aside from it being a sandbox.. 

 

Origins of Malu is and looking forward to testing it.. only two with possible release date anytime in the next year would be The repopulation and maybe Origins of Malu

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

4/09/13 9:28:39 PM#30
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Dahkoht
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by xeniar
Originally posted by Benedikt
actually no - gw2 (and aoc) "instancing" is a protection against "empty zones" which do happen a lot in most of other mmorpgs when most of the players are already max level - have to say i was not bothered by it in gw2 at all (well mostly at all, i could have live w/o a time it took to transit from overflow to normal zone)

Make leveling meaningfull and actually lasting quite abit of time instead of the 1month level cap rush and all your zones will automaticly be filled by people leveling at slower paces and alts. No need for instanceing

Instancing is modern thing because imagine this. Dungeons are not instanced. Bosses/mobs in a dungeon are available for first come first serve basis. Farming guilds will dominate these dungeons 24/7.

 

Who wants to play a game like that?

 

Me.

PVE competition in a dungeon made EQ even more interesting.

 

what you dont understand is the players of today are vastly different from th eplayers back in EQ. There weren't nearly as many griefers today as there were back then. That kind of system would be abused and ultimately only used by very few because they wouldn't be able to combat the farming guilds.

 

to that you may say bring your own, and then you're turning what should be a pve experience into a pvp experience, but the point would be moot because those farming guilds would be ready, prepared to fend off whatever force you could bring. You may even wipe them a time or two, but be assured you would not get any boss kills cause they would wipe you right back.

 

The players of today would get wiped by the players of older games because they are used to it. The players of today would go to the forums and whine whine whine rather then tough it out and try try try. 

The non instanced style of gameplay would weed out a ton of the baddies in the first few weeks just because its a harsher style of game. Which is fine with me. Less people/kiddie trolls in chat. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

4/09/13 9:32:04 PM#31
Well that's why I said currently in development :)
So two close, one not far from that (we'll see a reveal/demo in August) and a three down the road. With the rate of released MMOs slowing down I'd say six in the foreseeable future pretty great.

Oh, don't forget AoW, AA and Black Desert. Not sure what Instances AA has though.
  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

4/09/13 9:35:26 PM#32
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Dahkoht
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by xeniar
Originally posted by Benedikt
actually no - gw2 (and aoc) "instancing" is a protection against "empty zones" which do happen a lot in most of other mmorpgs when most of the players are already max level - have to say i was not bothered by it in gw2 at all (well mostly at all, i could have live w/o a time it took to transit from overflow to normal zone)

Make leveling meaningfull and actually lasting quite abit of time instead of the 1month level cap rush and all your zones will automaticly be filled by people leveling at slower paces and alts. No need for instanceing

Instancing is modern thing because imagine this. Dungeons are not instanced. Bosses/mobs in a dungeon are available for first come first serve basis. Farming guilds will dominate these dungeons 24/7.

 

Who wants to play a game like that?

 

Me.

PVE competition in a dungeon made EQ even more interesting.

 

what you dont understand is the players of today are vastly different from th eplayers back in EQ. There weren't nearly as many griefers today as there were back then. That kind of system would be abused and ultimately only used by very few because they wouldn't be able to combat the farming guilds.

 

to that you may say bring your own, and then you're turning what should be a pve experience into a pvp experience, but the point would be moot because those farming guilds would be ready, prepared to fend off whatever force you could bring. You may even wipe them a time or two, but be assured you would not get any boss kills cause they would wipe you right back.

 

The players of today would get wiped by the players of older games because they are used to it. The players of today would go to the forums and whine whine whine rather then tough it out and try try try. 

The non instanced style of gameplay would weed out a ton of the baddies in the first few weeks just because its a harsher style of game. Which is fine with me. Less people/kiddie trolls in chat. 

so you're just a big bad elitist veteran who think the players of today are carebears who don't know how to do anything but qq.

 

you cannot be more full of shit. the players of today almost thrive on making OTHER people cry by griefing them. its what gets them off. and yes, you can be damn sure the top min/max elitist guilds will be farming as many open world dungeons as they can as a whole to cut off anyone else getting whatever drops they can get from them.

 

the players 10 years ago weren't dicks. players now are. your vastly misinterpretting the gamers of today by confusing WoW's continued success vs other "harder(in your eyes)" games like GW2 where you think it requires so much more skill to play than WoW.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

4/09/13 9:36:19 PM#33
Originally posted by Aelious
Well that's why I said currently in development :)
So two close, one not far from that (we'll see a reveal/demo in August) and a three down the road. With the rate of released MMOs slowing down I'd say six in the foreseeable future pretty great.

Oh, don't forget AoW, AA and Black Desert. Not sure what Instances AA has though.

AoW, BDO, and AA are not completely seamless.. AoW is about at zoned and instanced as they come... my point is any of the "down the road" games could easily be instanced games..only ones i have seen concrete design info on that say they will be seamless worlds are The repopulation and Origins of Malu... AA looks to have a huge world but even seige warfare is in its own instance.... just because they are more sandbox style doesn't mean they won't be heavily zoned/instanced games like Age of Wushu

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Azrile

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/08
Posts: 2615

4/09/13 9:42:26 PM#34
Originally posted by yangdude

I've played PWI (yes that old outdated etc game) for some time now and assumed that the open world style was the norm.  Then having jumped on the GW2 bandwagon I was very confused by the gameplay style. 

So this is 'instanced' where you have a small area to quest in,  then (at least back when it started) you wait in line to get into the next area?  I must admit I was baffled.  I dont have a lot of MMO experience and suddenly this super new game seems like a whole bunch of small games linked together by portals.

How is it that this is even accepted by the gaming community.  Like seriously, am I the only one that thinks the 'instanced' style of GW2 really sucks - I mean REALLY.  I was extremely disappointed to say the least and it actually made me feel claustrophobic playing GW2.

(as a sideline I didnt play GW2 for long because my computer wont play it for pvp but thats my problem)

I guess I'm interested to hear others opinions on 'instancing'.   Does anyone out there actually like it - and if so why?  Is instancing a result of developers trying to cramb so much into each small area that it cant be done in an open world format? 

There are a lot fo reasons for it.  Some of them are lessons long-ago learned, others are being re-learned frequently.  I´ll start with 2 games as reference.  UO and WOW.

 Problems?

1. camping -  There will always be a best (ie most efficient) way to get loot.  After awhile, there will be a pecking order.  In UO, this was elder gazers.   They were an easy, but high level mob with a very small spawn area.  What happened?  People formed lines to camp the spot... and that is if they were being nice.  If they weren´t being nice, you would end up with 5 people trying to get you killed.  Nothing sucked worse than going from dungeon to dungeon finding every decent spot already with a line of players waiting.

2.  No bosses that you have to work to get to -  Let´s suppose, at the bottom of a dungeon there was a boss.  A group of friends fight their way for an hour through the trash..  a second before they pull the boss, another group runs up behind them ( through the now clear dungeon) and tags the boss.

3.  No boss too big - The other problem, which you see with overland bosses is that they can be zerged and dominated too easily.  WOW recently added a couple overland bosses.. you know what happens?  the fight is designed for 40 players.. on my server, we usually get at least 60-100 to kill it without any effort.

And that leads to the biggest problem.

It is simply impossible to tune boss fights when you don´t know how many players are going to be fighting it.  In WOW, it is very common to wipe on a boss at less than 5%, or to kill a boss with only 3 of 25 players still alive.  That balancing is only possible because the devs know exactly how many players will be fighting the boss.  WIth non-instanced bosses, the majority of the time the bosses are going to be impossible, or super easy.  The only other alternative is to do what EQ did.. make the bosses very easy, but require them to take hours to kill... not exactly engaging gameplay to fight a boss, using the same 5 abilities for 4 hours.

Instanced dungeons are required to make boss fights interesting.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

4/09/13 9:43:15 PM#35
That's surprising to hear about AoW since it was supposed to be "open world". Just to be clear I look at "instancing" as separating a group of people from others. Semantics aside dedicated small group instances and methods to seperate areas of the gameworld are what I'm taking about.
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

4/09/13 9:48:31 PM#36
Originally posted by Aelious
That's surprising to hear about AoW since it was supposed to be "open world". Just to be clear I look at "instancing" as separating a group of people from others. Semantics aside dedicated small group instances and methods to seperate areas of the gameworld are what I'm taking about.

so am I... AoW has a LOT of seperating people in their own instances for all kinds of things.. now don't get me wrong it has some HUGE areas but is as instanced as most themepark MMOs.. also again only those two games I listed repop and malu don't follow what is in red from what I have seen.. true seamless games are very very rare

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 297

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

4/09/13 9:54:30 PM#37
LOL, instancing reminds me of D2, and while its hardly on the same scale, it can feel retro. What I don't understand is how "entirely persistent" zones are so immersive. Your in a world overflowing with hero's, pretending to participate in mostly exclusive events which everyone is doing, and even the best environtments lack the depth and openness of a realistically populated world. I mean, how many homes are there really in that capitol? 100?, 5000 people are living in a city with hardly a fraction of the development necessary to sustain them...

Anyway, time to go home, layers.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

4/09/13 9:59:39 PM#38
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
LOL, instancing reminds me of D2, and while its hardly on the same scale, it can feel retro. What I don't understand is how "entirely persistent" zones are so immersive. Your in a world overflowing with hero's, pretending to participate in mostly exclusive events which everyone is doing, and even the best environtments lack the depth and openness of a realistically populated world. I mean, how many homes are there really in that capitol? 100?, 5000 people are living in a city with hardly a fraction of the development necessary to sustain them...

Anyway, time to go home, layers.

ehhh the way a capital works is. People travel there. Take Atlanta for instance. Most people who are in Atlanta, don't live in Atlanta. They commute to Atlanta for work, or entertainment.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Fluxii

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 198

4/09/13 10:04:30 PM#39

Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion for EQ1.

 

That was probably the first one for MMO's and that was 10 years ago.  At least it's the first I remember.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/09/13 10:09:48 PM#40
 

The players of today would get wiped by the players of older games because they are used to it. The players of today would go to the forums and whine whine whine rather then tough it out and try try try. 

The non instanced style of gameplay would weed out a ton of the baddies in the first few weeks just because its a harsher style of game. Which is fine with me. Less people/kiddie trolls in chat. 

so you're just a big bad elitist veteran who think the players of today are carebears who don't know how to do anything but qq.

 

you cannot be more full of shit. the players of today almost thrive on making OTHER people cry by griefing them. its what gets them off. and yes, you can be damn sure the top min/max elitist guilds will be farming as many open world dungeons as they can as a whole to cut off anyone else getting whatever drops they can get from them.

 

the players 10 years ago weren't dicks. players now are. your vastly misinterpretting the gamers of today by confusing WoW's continued success vs other "harder(in your eyes)" games like GW2 where you think it requires so much more skill to play than WoW.

Agreed but even if he is right and you "weed out a ton of baddies" you will have a playerbase the size of Darkfall. Not exactly a success story.

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