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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » What happens when you die?

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57 posts found
  LeahXtwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/13
Posts: 39

4/09/13 8:12:57 AM#21
Originally posted by Edany
Originally posted by LeahXtwo
They charge your account 50 cents of RL money every time you rez. 

LOL

: )

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1131

4/09/13 9:07:22 AM#22
Originally posted by LeahXtwo
They charge your account 50 cents of RL money every time you rez. 

But only if you are an Arthurian. Think of it as a population/zerg control measure. ;)

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Karraptathid

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 80

4/09/13 10:02:17 AM#23
Originally posted by Eraserhead

Death penalties need to be minimal. To keep the fights flowing requires as many players as possible in the zones actively looking for fights as opposed to being scared of entering pvp or entering and skulking around only engaging in guaranteed win fights. These games don't work when fights are hard to find, people log off.

PvP requires that there are regular and continuous player deaths, it's required for the mechanics of the game to function so adding to reasons for it not to happen should be avoided.

Besides that dying in PvP is a lot more personal because it was another person that killed you which is sufficient penalty to keep players competitive and avoiding death worthwhile.

Agreed, too negative of a death penalty and two things will happen.  Healers/Clerics will be an endangered species because they will die first every single time in order to make them /log.  This will be a form of mob griefing against a specific class because if you make  death that annoying, it will be used as a weapon to gain realm control.  Healers/clerics will be the initial targeted as it is just because of game mechanics, but death penalties are tough enough, no one is going to want to play healer/cleric and that means a strategic advantage of the realm with superior numbers. Second point about having tough death penalities, it will unbalance the holy grail of 3 sided RVR.  Consider one of the three sides is going to be far weaker then the other two (go find a perfect balanced server with three sides, going to be tough to find) and has a far more likely chance of getting wiped.  If you are constantly getting wiped and your losing stuff (points/gear/whatever), why bother with RVR that night and go crafting instead?  If you don't have 3 viable sides in the RVR scene, that unbalances the game as the dominate realm is going to keep full control as the second largest realm gives up as well to go crafting because they don't want to deal with the severe death penalties either as they keep losing battle after battle. 

DAoC had it about right, worked well with the BGs which is where I play in.  Time that I get back to where the fight is, rez sickness has cleared up and I'm ready to be useful group member once again.  Key part of being RVR centric is to entice people to go RVRing, and that means little long term grief as possible because /release is annoying already.  If there aren't enough people RVRing, the people in RVR zones will get bored and log which isn't good for any game, especially for a new game trying to get regular subscribers.  

Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  Hjamnr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 174

4/09/13 10:04:37 AM#24

The most important thing, from a death penalty standpoint, is that without a rez, it should take a good length of time before you can return to the area where you died. 

Insta-respawns and back in the action are the realm of FPS's, and have no place in RvR.

  Karraptathid

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 80

4/09/13 10:05:23 AM#25
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by LeahXtwo
They charge your account 50 cents of RL money every time you rez. 

But only if you are an Arthurian. Think of it as a population/zerg control measure. ;)

 

That type of death penality would promote zergs.  What's the safest place to be while playing in NF?  Middle of a zerg, vs 8 man team roaming.

 

 

Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1131

4/09/13 10:14:43 AM#26
Originally posted by Karraptathid
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by LeahXtwo
They charge your account 50 cents of RL money every time you rez. 

But only if you are an Arthurian. Think of it as a population/zerg control measure. ;)

 That type of death penality would promote zergs.  What's the safest place to be while playing in NF?  Middle of a zerg, vs 8 man team roaming.

I thought it went without saying that I was joking, but I guess not. :)  Charging money for rezzes is a terrible idea and one I'm confident won't ever be considered by Mark.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Charlie1066

Novice Member

Joined: 4/08/13
Posts: 6

4/09/13 10:17:33 AM#27

Everyone always says that heavy death penalties are a no no but everquest and UO two of the most popular games pre WOW had heavy death penalties that meant you could really go backwards.

This encouraged skill and intense play.

 

 

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1131

4/09/13 10:23:14 AM#28
Originally posted by Charlie1066

Everyone always says that heavy death penalties are a no no but everquest and UO two of the most popular games pre WOW had heavy death penalties that meant you could really go backwards.

This encouraged skill and intense play.

This makes more sense in a PvE game where the player has a lot of control over what is happening, although I still prefer a light death penalty in PvE anyway. But in an RvR game where it's often out of your control whether you get zerged by 200 Arthurians, it would suck.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

4/09/13 10:24:53 AM#29
I'd prefer to just leave it at rez sickness. Have armor deterioration a part of being in combat, not death. Con loss like mordred/pve might not be the worst idea... in an rvr setting (was terrible for a server you could be farmed at respawn starting out though).
  tinuelle

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 290

It's all about pushing the right buttons

4/09/13 10:24:57 AM#30
Originally posted by Karraptathid
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by LeahXtwo
They charge your account 50 cents of RL money every time you rez. 

But only if you are an Arthurian. Think of it as a population/zerg control measure. ;)

 

That type of death penality would promote zergs.  What's the safest place to be while playing in NF?  Middle of a zerg, vs 8 man team roaming.

 

 

8 man team roaming = small zerg or a big zerg vs a two man team.

but when you die you have to write a text that describes why you did, and what you can do to avoid it (subject to approval). If you fail you have to write it again. If you pass you are ressed. A horrible deathpenalty by all accounts.

  TribeofOne

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 976

4/09/13 10:27:11 AM#31

We like Permadeath for CU.

i kid

 

how about upon death you become a zombie and start attacking ANYONE on sight unless or until a Cleric blesses your tombstone allowing your spirit to return to your body and the zombie curse to be lifted.

  Charlie1066

Novice Member

Joined: 4/08/13
Posts: 6

4/09/13 10:28:03 AM#32

Fair comment that its a RVR game. That being said, perhaps a light penalty like condition loss is more appropriate.

Its just meaningless if you can repair your charachter after being stomped into the floor for a few coppers.

 

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/09/13 10:39:27 AM#33

In any PvP system, the assumption is that half the players die every fight (or that everyone dies half the time).

So, a lot of dying's going on.

The result is that death penalties shouldn't be too punitive, permanent, etc.  XP loss = no, de-leveling = no.

The main things the devs have to work with is (a) time delay, and (b) performance reduction.

E.g. "portal" / travel time and rez sickness.

 

Generally speaking, since RvR is played out over several battlefields across a large map, the travel delay is an important and significant aspect of the game.  The option for teleport/portal mechanics adds additional strategic options.  So, the time delay of resurrection is a good mechanic.

I'd say the maximum delay for getting back to the furthest fight should be 20 minutes.  In other words, if the fight is at the enemy's "home base" from your rez point, with no travel augmentation (portals), etc.  20m is a long time, but fighting straight at the enemy's doorstep from your spawnpoint should be discouraged.

Minimum delay should be 2 minutes (e.g. fighting at your doorstep against enemies who've traveled across the entire frontier).  Between 2-20 minutes should be everything else -- portaling around, hoofing it across the frontiers, etc.

 

Rez sickness is another aspect, to diminish the effectiveness of rapid rezzes.  I don't have a clear idea how I would like that mechanic to function, however.  I think a lot would depend on how the rez system works (in combat?  out of combat?  long cast?  short cast?  resource-intensive?).  Spammy rezzes (WAR) should have moderate, stacking, rez sickness.  Slow, costly rezzes (DAOC) should have little to no rez sickness.  Special rezzes can bypass penalties.

Minor coin loss from damaged gear is probably ok.  I think that really depends on the economic system and crafting as a whole, rather than dying.  E.g., it's not related to "death penalties"; it's really related to gold sink, since the assumption is that players die half the time, and players will repair 100% of the time they die.  The variation there isn't significant from a tactical or strategic perspective (e.g. it doesn't impact RvR).  So.  Based on economics.

  TribeofOne

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 976

4/09/13 10:47:07 AM#34
Originally posted by TribeofOne

We like Permadeath for CU.

i kid

 

how about upon death you become a zombie and start attacking ANYONE on sight unless or until a Cleric blesses your tombstone allowing your spirit to return to your body and the zombie curse to be lifted.

or better yet how about if those killed in pvp BECOME PVE targets!  You die in pvp, youre sent back to your own kingdom as a zombie attacking anyone on sight(crafters/town squaters) etc until either They Kill your zombie self, sending your soul back to your tombstone and pvp battle or a Cleric blesses your tombstone where you died, allowing you to resume pvp.

  Karraptathid

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 80

4/09/13 11:15:27 AM#35
Originally posted by Karraptathid
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by LeahXtwo
They charge your account 50 cents of RL money every time you rez. 

But only if you are an Arthurian. Think of it as a population/zerg control measure. ;)

 

That type of death penality would promote zergs.  What's the safest place to be while playing in NF?  Middle of a zerg, vs 8 man team roaming.

 

 

I know you were joking, but I was trying to make a point about harsh penalties and the effects on the game.  Your post was perfect topic for me to do so. 

Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2111

joie de vivre

 
OP  4/09/13 11:18:39 AM#36


Originally posted by grogstorm
I think it would be nice to have an “unconscious” pool.  DnD rules.  So if you are defeated and the damage does not exceed your unconscious pool you can be awoken by allies.  But if the damage exceeds your unconscious pool you are dead and have to be resurrected or release.  And resurrection can only be done by healers. 

Example: Say a character has 2000 hit points and a unconscious pool of 200 hp (10%).   Any damage that exceeds 2000 hp but not the 2200 hp unconscious limit would render the character unconscious and can be awoken by allies.  And if the damage exceeded the 2200 hp unconscious limit the character is dead.

It would also be nice where resurrection a large amount of “mana” and was time consuming.  So it would be uncommon to be used in battle. 

Other options:

Maybe a mass (aoe) instant resurrection that would consume 100% of a characters mana and be on a 4 hour timer.


I like this. I like having an action pool, which, when drained leaves you defenseless or even KOd. Maybe they have to get you to drain your action and health to kill you?

I really have no taste for death modes, plays, anythings. I have seen a few games add a death mini game, not for me. I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  TribeofOne

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 976

4/09/13 11:21:42 AM#37
Originally posted by Xobdnas
...I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.

then why bother having death at all. Death should be THE WORST thing that could happen to you.. you should dread and fear it.

  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2434

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

4/09/13 11:24:28 AM#38
Originally posted by meddyck

  1. No downed state.
  2. You die when your hits hit 0 then you either get rezzed or release.
  3. Some form of RvR sickness like DAOC had is fine. This was a debuff that could stack up to 3 times and slowed your movement speed and halved the effectiveness of your damage and healing spells. There was a ML ability that could cure it. Otherwise you just waited until it expired. I don't like systems like you see in many MMOs where your armor takes damage when you release so if you are getting a zerged a lot on a given day, you end up paying a lot to repair your gear.

I liked the DAOC way too. There were consequences for dying and you did your best not to die as much as possible lol.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  SBE1

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/06
Posts: 339

4/09/13 11:31:24 AM#39

I think they mentioned one major thing when you die:  you are removed from combat area for a reasonable amount of time.   This is so one side can "win" and take an objective, rather than having the loser simply respawn and be back fighting the winners very quickly. 

Now, that might mean you spawn back at the beginning and have travel time.  It also might mean that you have a serious debuff that affects your movement and abilities, or some combination thereof.

I highly doubt you'll get corpse looting.  However, the winners can determine what to do with any structures you have built.  They can take it or destroy it.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2111

joie de vivre

 
OP  4/09/13 11:44:24 AM#40


Originally posted by TribeofOne

Originally posted by Xobdnas ...I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.
then why bother having death at all. Death should be THE WORST thing that could happen to you.. you should dread and fear it.

I didn't mean I don't want consequences, with no consequence the game has no meaning. I meant I don't like the mini games, I just want to take my loss, whatever it is, reload and get playing again without having to run around in a death world doing mini game stuff.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

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