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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the 'easy' myth

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362 posts found
  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4845

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/08/13 11:27:57 AM#261

I actually don't believe that people choose the easiest route.  As with most things they choose the most efficient route, which in many games is the same thing as the easiest route but not always.  It is always the quickest route to the goal.  If that means playing at the hardest setting they will do that if they get their goal quicker. 

edit - A small change.  I think the most efficient way is a balance between easiest and quickest.  In RL it is getting the most product with the least energy input.  Getting there quickly may take more energy than doing it slower, conversely doing it slower may take more energy than doing it quickly.

People will group up if the rewards are better (which they allready are), if it is easy to do (which it allready is) and if they want to (debatable).  This may be why lfg is the most common way to level in WoW these days.

If there was a way to alter the dungeons at early levels for difficulty settings I think many/most would alter the difficulty. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2463

World > Quest Progression

4/08/13 11:50:11 AM#262
Venge

I agree and in most cases with MMOs the easiest is the most effective. I think the objection to that is the point of some of us, including me. I wish all MMOs had leveling (or progressing) like CoX, it makes the most sense and fosters the most amount of interaction possible. Unfortunately it's not the norm right now though I think it will be to up retention.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

 
OP  4/08/13 1:25:59 PM#263
Originally posted by Aelious
Venge

I agree and in most cases with MMOs the easiest is the most effective. I think the objection to that is the point of some of us, including me. I wish all MMOs had leveling (or progressing) like CoX, it makes the most sense and fosters the most amount of interaction possible. Unfortunately it's not the norm right now though I think it will be to up retention.

The norm of leveling in WOW involves LFD .. so there is a lot of interaction .. but it is easy.

What i would like to see .. is difficulty level in leveling .. with adjustment of xp gain. Basically D3's MP model.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1402

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

4/08/13 3:08:35 PM#264


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
To people who say that most people would choose the easy route, not necessarily...


Think so? If an MMO existed where players could, at any time, change their xp multipler (x1, x2, x4), you can bet 100% of players would choose x4.



Originally posted by KaosProphet
...That aside: I seem to recall, back when EQ was the "big game" and seeing flamewars between tje EQ and UO fanboys, that the EQ players *at that time* sounded a lot like the WoW players do today...


ROFL you are absolutely correct. EQ was much easier than UO on many levels. Hah. Looks like I am the pot calling the kettle black.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  f1seb

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/06
Posts: 192

4/08/13 8:08:14 PM#265

I have a friend who is a gamer.  He is the type that if a game kicks his ass he screams and yells at the top of his lungs (28 years old.)  He plays games on easy difficulty constantly.  This is how he describes it to me:

"I don't want to sit there figuring out calculus and physics equations to get through the game, I just want to grab my controller hit play and enjoy the game."

Never in my life had I seen a game ask me to do any of such things.  I know that some people like to figure out the perfect rotation of spells in MMO's and such, but that's about it, and I've never done any of that stuff myself.

This causes him to beat games  insanely fast, at least in my opinion.  I think he was done with Tomb Raider in 2 days or so.  If I had gotten through a game that fast I'd consider it a crappy product and certainly not worth 65 dollars.

He tried WoW 3.3.5a and was getting owned by mobs left and right.  I told him to read about the spells he gets, and to watch his mana pool. To prove my point  I sat down in his spot, and to his disbelief I  killed the same mobs that were giving him a hard time.  He threw his hands up in the air and said:

"This game is gay it's too much work!!"

I try to go out of my way not to play games with him online cause what bothers me is not that he's bad at mmo's.  It's that he wouldn't even learn how to play it.  Again he used the calculus and physics line.  We tried DOTA 2 not too long ago, I'm sure you guys can derive of what happened immediately in the 1st 5 minutes.

  tupodawg999

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 608

4/09/13 1:41:26 AM#266
All the people using raids and instances as examples of why the games aren't too easy are effectively agreeing that the levelling part is too easy - which is the important point for people who like the levelling game.
  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4845

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/09/13 2:58:44 AM#267
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
To people who say that most people would choose the easy route, not necessarily...

 


Think so? If an MMO existed where players could, at any time, change their xp multipler (x1, x2, x4), you can bet 100% of players would choose x4.

 

 




 

Well that woudl be the most efficient route to their goal wouldn't it?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5266

4/09/13 3:01:53 AM#268
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I actually don't believe that people choose the easiest route.  As with most things they choose the most efficient route, which in many games is the same thing as the easiest route but not always.  It is always the quickest route to the goal.  If that means playing at the hardest setting they will do that if they get their goal quicker. 

edit - A small change.  I think the most efficient way is a balance between easiest and quickest.  In RL it is getting the most product with the least energy input.  Getting there quickly may take more energy than doing it slower, conversely doing it slower may take more energy than doing it quickly.

People will group up if the rewards are better (which they allready are), if it is easy to do (which it allready is) and if they want to (debatable).  This may be why lfg is the most common way to level in WoW these days.

If there was a way to alter the dungeons at early levels for difficulty settings I think many/most would alter the difficulty. 

 

 

The route that is the easiest is by far the most efficient in all games. I am not saying there are no exceptions, but your example was a rare one. Also as modern MMO's have become and still are becoming more easymode, that route is becoming easier to spot. Indeed you don't so much have to spot it as fall into it as you take your first steps.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

4/09/13 3:21:16 AM#269
Good challenge is fun easy is boring, nuff said.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

 
OP  4/09/13 11:01:34 AM#270
Originally posted by f1seb

 

"I don't want to sit there figuring out calculus and physics equations to get through the game, I just want to grab my controller hit play and enjoy the game."

Never in my life had I seen a game ask me to do any of such things.  I know that some people like to figure out the perfect rotation of spells in MMO's and such, but that's about it, and I've never done any of that stuff myself.

This causes him to beat games  insanely fast, at least in my opinion.  I think he was done with Tomb Raider in 2 days or so.  If I had gotten through a game that fast I'd consider it a crappy product and certainly not worth 65 dollars.

You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do.

And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity.

I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so.

Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/09/13 12:52:34 PM#271
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by f1seb

 

"I don't want to sit there figuring out calculus and physics equations to get through the game, I just want to grab my controller hit play and enjoy the game."

Never in my life had I seen a game ask me to do any of such things.  I know that some people like to figure out the perfect rotation of spells in MMO's and such, but that's about it, and I've never done any of that stuff myself.

This causes him to beat games  insanely fast, at least in my opinion.  I think he was done with Tomb Raider in 2 days or so.  If I had gotten through a game that fast I'd consider it a crappy product and certainly not worth 65 dollars.

You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do.

And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity.

I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so.

Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.

 

 

Old news...

 

After years of that, one realizes that min/max is only for games where the Dev's have lost sight of their game... and decided to make an upward game, instead of an outward one. So it becomes about items & trinkets...

Something you are obsessed with, because you have limited time playing.  We know you started gaming with WoW..    but in EQ, it was the PLAYERS themselves that mattered. One wrong loaded spell and entire guild went down on a raid..  that is the kind of challenge/perfection you are afraid of & why you will get up in a middle of a raid and leave, because your wifed called you.

You play these as arcade 3rdPS..

 

Like someone else said:   why you still here..  you have claimed over a hundred times now... that you are not a MMORPG player.

 

 

BTW..   All games are easy right now. The reason millions of MMORPG fans have pulled out of their subs... waiting for all these kiddie mmo to die out. Adults do not have an issue with $15/month for their hobby.

EQ got easier & lost subs, all these old games that saw in 2005 WoW's revenues changed their games to pull-in some of those people. Essentially, these Devs ruined several of the best games on the market, in persuance of 14~16 year olds trampling WoW..  with their parent fueling it because the internet was so "new" to the family, etc.

 

 

Bottom line, games today are easy...   and if a game has a "mode" then it is arcade, by virtue of offering an option, thus easy.. derp!

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1402

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

4/09/13 1:48:20 PM#272


Originally posted by Phelcher


Originally posted by nariusseldon
You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do. And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity. I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so. Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.

...


You play these as arcade 3rdPS..


Like someone else said: why you still here.. you have claimed over a hundred times now... that you are not a MMORPG player.


Hmm, Phelcher makes a good point.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

 
OP  4/09/13 1:58:02 PM#273
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Phelcher


Originally posted by nariusseldon
You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do. And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity. I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so. Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.


 

 

...


You play these as arcade 3rdPS..


Like someone else said: why you still here.. you have claimed over a hundred times now... that you are not a MMORPG player.

 

 


 

 

Hmm, Phelcher makes a good point.

Because MMORPG can be played solo, like lobby games, and if MMO devs make games i like (like STO story mission), is there a reason why i should not play them, or talk about them?

 

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 491

4/09/13 2:46:43 PM#274

The few times  I have called WoW easy, it was simply because I could breeze 90% of the solo content and quite a bit of the small group content as solo without having to think about what I was doing. Stuff just fell over dead as soon as it was hit.. 

I blasted through lower level dungeons. And in case there was a bit of a challenge and I didnt quite kill the boss in the first go, the reward would have been useless after a second go. Or it would be stupidly rare and I would have to run the same dungeon 100s of  times over to even smell the chance of it dropping, let alone win the loot roll. That being the only reward for going..... no xp next to no cash and worthless loot.

And since  WoW and other games since it are 90% soloable and easily so, when you do get to what looks like a challenge, the real challenge is in trying to organize soloers into a group or raid.... all the while spamming skills... And when there is next to no penalty for faliure, except time already spent, some of them wont care to work with the team... Especially since its unlikely they will have to team up with the rest of the raid again. This also makes them act like douches...

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 491

4/09/13 2:59:39 PM#275

And another thing... 

In modern easy games, mobs are tethered to a small area.

There is no Crowd Control to speak of, other than aggro.

Every class can solo with ease and no downtime.

Thousands of solo quests.

And free teleports to the dungeon.

Instanced dungeons/zones.

All letting people solo all they want and making it stupid to team up for anything at all outside of the endgame.

And the reason I dont have all those "hardmode" unlocks? Same reason I was never the fastest paperboy in my area... its a mundane job and Im not going to exert myself doing it.. and as soon as something else comes along Im getting the hell out.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

 
OP  4/09/13 3:12:54 PM#276
Originally posted by WW4BW

And another thing... 

In modern easy games, mobs are tethered to a small area.

There is no Crowd Control to speak of, other than aggro.

Every class can solo with ease and no downtime.

Thousands of solo quests.

And free teleports to the dungeon.

Teleport has nothing to do with challenge. Flying to a dungeon is easy and boring.

Instanced dungeons/zones.

Instanced has nothing to do with challenge. In fact, the most difficult content is in instances.

All letting people solo all they want and making it stupid to team up for anything at all outside of the endgame.

And the reason I dont have all those "hardmode" unlocks? Same reason I was never the fastest paperboy in my area... its a mundane job and Im not going to exert myself doing it.. and as soon as something else comes along Im getting the hell out.

You don't like it does not equate to no challenge. Any why do you move to the next thing, presumbly easy leveling, than play challenging end-game? Is it because you don't want challenge at all?

 

 

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3277

Poacher killer.

4/09/13 3:17:59 PM#277
Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by Phelcher


Originally posted by nariusseldon
You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do. And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity. I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so. Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.


 

...


You play these as arcade 3rdPS..


Like someone else said: why you still here.. you have claimed over a hundred times now... that you are not a MMORPG player.


 

 

Hmm, Phelcher makes a good point.

He makes a great point. It's almost the same post every time. I don't get it.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 491

4/09/13 3:50:40 PM#278
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WW4BW

 

And free teleports to the dungeon.

Teleport has nothing to do with challenge. Flying to a dungeon is easy and boring.

You have a point, its more of a symptom than a problem in itself.

The problem being; that all you do is queue and run dungeons... thats a game lobby to me and not being in a virtual world. You dont even have to know where the dungeon is.. 

Instanced dungeons/zones.

Instanced has nothing to do with challenge. In fact, the most difficult content is in instances.

Not directly, no. It allows everyone, no matter how bad or disaggreable they are, to have a go at it and to get loot. No matter if they are deadweight. In open dungeons you atleast have the risk of being out competed by a group where everyone pulls their weight

All letting people solo all they want and making it stupid to team up for anything at all outside of the endgame.

And the reason I dont have all those "hardmode" unlocks? Same reason I was never the fastest paperboy in my area... its a mundane job and Im not going to exert myself doing it.. and as soon as something else comes along Im getting the hell out.

You don't like it does not equate to no challenge. Any why do you move to the next thing, presumbly easy leveling, than play challenging end-game? Is it because you don't want challenge at all?

 I do enjoy a challenge, well that is to say. I do enjoy some challenges. Some challenges are just stupid, I wouldnt take a kick to the nuts on a dare... Others are just boring and while I might do some of those.. Doing a weekly circuit of the exact same thing is not my idea of a challenge. That might be the training for a challenge... but I dont feel doing it for the hell of it.

And what I meant by getting the hell out... well I was bored doing the same old stuff.. went and tried some other games.. seems they had the same boring stuff and right now Im not playing any MMO..

in WoW I didnt enjoy replaying dungeons every single week. I didnt enjoy breezing through the solo stuff either. Tried the PvP batlegrounds and there didnt seem to be anything to it... just run out and smash stuff, die, and repeat.. You could try to be sneaky or clever.. but that usually just meant less points..  And points was exactly what there wasnt to PvP in WoW... why fight... to be top tier... thats not why I play MMOs.. thats why I play FPS... not that I am top tier.. though I might top the scoreboard for a map :P

Everything in that game was so mindnumbingly simplyfied and straightforward. Not once did it make sense to stop and consider what you were doing. That was wasting time, that could be spent mashing buttons.

There was one way to skin a cat and you would only get penalized for experimenting.

 

 

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4845

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/09/13 4:25:20 PM#279

Whenever I have found the content I am doing in any MMO to be too easy.  I go and do harder content.

This isn't a difficult idea people.  Go to a tougher area. 

If you choose not to, and still complain games are too easy then you are pathetic.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

 
OP  4/09/13 8:10:12 PM#280
Originally posted by WW4BW

You have a point, its more of a symptom than a problem in itself.

The problem being; that all you do is queue and run dungeons... thats a game lobby to me and not being in a virtual world. You dont even have to know where the dungeon is.. 

Yes. Many MMOs are more like lobby games than virtual world. So? That has nothing to do with challenges. In fact, the most challenging game i have played is Diablo 3 hard core MP10 ... and that is not even a MMO .. certainly with no virtual world.


Not directly, no. It allows everyone, no matter how bad or disaggreable they are, to have a go at it and to get loot. No matter if they are deadweight. In open dungeons you atleast have the risk of being out competed by a group where everyone pulls their weight

That is true. But if you are a deadweight and cause wipes .. well .. you got kicked. Not anyone is willing to carry others, particularly strangers. If i meet a bad tank, or a bad DPS, i either kick them or quit.

*And* who says others cannot carry you in an open dungeon? It has nothing to do with the instance or open dungeon, it is about if others are willing to carry you.

And what I meant by getting the hell out... well I was bored doing the same old stuff.. went and tried some other games.. seems they had the same boring stuff and right now Im not playing any MMO..

in WoW I didnt enjoy replaying dungeons every single week. I didnt enjoy breezing through the solo stuff either. Tried the PvP batlegrounds and there didnt seem to be anything to it... just run out and smash stuff, die, and repeat.. You could try to be sneaky or clever.. but that usually just meant less points..  And points was exactly what there wasnt to PvP in WoW... why fight... to be top tier... thats not why I play MMOs.. thats why I play FPS... not that I am top tier.. though I might top the scoreboard for a map :P

Everything in that game was so mindnumbingly simplyfied and straightforward. Not once did it make sense to stop and consider what you were doing. That was wasting time, that could be spent mashing buttons.

There was one way to skin a cat and you would only get penalized for experimenting.

Many will say video games are just wasting time. And certainly you state clearly why you did not like MMOs. But again, that is irrelevant to whether there are challenges.

You are saying you don't want to even to attempt the challegnes because they are boring (to you). That is fair. Just don't claim there is none.

Hard mode raid is hard .. no matter you think is boring or not. Finish it, show us the achievement, then you can say it is easy.

 

 

 

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