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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Brain washing, what developers are pulling on us

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71 posts found
  Brenics

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 160

4/07/13 9:44:52 AM#21
Well just to make an observation on the gaming community I would have to point to 2 games. World of Warcraft and League of Legends. They both have monster subs and both have brought a whole new era of players to the gaming world. I really don't think developers are concerned to much with the old players. They are targeting the younger new players. Good or bad the old days most of us older players loved may be gone for good. Call it what you will but I believe it has to do with targeting not brain washing.
  Morgaren

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/09
Posts: 394

For me, the gates will open.

4/07/13 10:04:53 AM#22
Originally posted by Myria

I really wish people would skip the psychobabble bullshit, it's meaningless tripe.

First, the whole "Pavlovian conditioning" and "Skinner box" stuff? It's crap. Behaviorism is crap, and always has been. Subliminal conditioning? Doesn't work. Aversion therapy? Doesn't work -- that alone puts a hole in the whole "brainwashing" thing you could fit a medium-sized globular cluster through. Hell, torture, the purest form of "Skinner box" there is (the original Skinner boxes basically being torture machines), doesn't work. There is no brainwashing someone to do anything you want if you just say "Would you kindly" (depressing how much milage Bioshock has gotten off of strawmen), there will never be a Walden Two, and you sure as hell don't "brainwash" masses of people just by making a game easier.

It's crap, all of it. Human (or most animals, for that matter) are not simple stimulus-response black boxes, and every attempt there has ever been to try and find a way to easily manipulate people on any scale has failed, and usually backfired.

People can be manipulated, to be sure, both as individuals and as groups, but that is far from a simple, predictable, or risk-free matter. It invariably requires giving them (or making them believe they will get) something they want (or believe they want), and it sure the hell isn't anything like what is generally meant by "brain washing".

I'm sure there are many devs -- or, at least, the people they work for -- who wish they could and were able to 'brainwash' people. Instead they have to do the hard work of trying different things until they find something people like and will pay for. Just because you don't like the end result of that doesn't make it 'brainwashing', it just makes you an outlier.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Why does everyone HAVE to have a cell phone? Why do  retail stores put items on end caps? Why is it that if you get a coupon from dominos for a pizza for 7.99 you will buy it when the normal price would be 7.86 (noticed this last time I bought a medium hand made online, be warned)

Brainwashing is very very common and easy too. Do you know why EVERY single fast food establishment has red on their sign and logo? Red creates impulsive behavior in the human psyche. It helps make you stop and pull in. (There are a few that don't Subway for one actively doesn't because they focus on health, and I believe whitecastle doesn't because their logo was made before this much science went into advertising, and the didn't want to change)

Just because you want to reject some notion that hints at you are being controlled because you have arrogant personal issues with it, that is your own problems with self esteem....not the truth. Go ask any married man about the Skinner box in context to his wife. You are conditioned from the day you are a child. We are stimuli seeking beings, whether it be the need of gratification I recieve to point out your greivous error in understanding humanity, or someone elses need to feel relief when their bladder is full, we all are controlled by basic and not so basic impulses that create desires that we need sated. When you understand how to create the desire, you can very much predict the actions people will take to sate them. That is brainwashing, advertisers and people in sales do it all the time. I know, cause that is partially what I do for a living.

  Jemcrystal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1345

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

4/07/13 12:19:36 PM#23
I don't agree with the OP on anything except the brainwashing part.  The dev's may be trying to brainwash people into thinking they're making a creative game by upping the graphics a bit and hiring a few better artists.  But the old games sucked to.  For me it is knowing we have moon travel down but everyone's cheap ass is still on earth because it's to risky to try something new.  Games suck because they are ALL copies of each other.

http://s25.postimg.org/e4cys86xb/gw004.jpg

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

4/07/13 12:22:00 PM#24
Originally posted by Byrhofen

OP, you seem to be missing something.

Those old MMOs, like EQ, are STILL OPERATING, which means you, and anyone else that has the same opinion about how how much better they are, can go play them.

If you really think Devs have brainwashed you, it is because YOU let them do it, by playing their game.

EQ sucks now...........

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

4/07/13 12:22:33 PM#25
Totally agree.
  delete5230

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 2549

 
OP  4/07/13 2:43:13 PM#26
Originally posted by Brenics
Well just to make an observation on the gaming community I would have to point to 2 games. World of Warcraft and League of Legends. They both have monster subs and both have brought a whole new era of players to the gaming world. I really don't think developers are concerned to much with the old players. They are targeting the younger new players. Good or bad the old days most of us older players loved may be gone for good. Call it what you will but I believe it has to do with targeting not brain washing.

In a way your helping me to make my point. 

Your talking about old players and targeting new players. How do you know what new players would REALLY LIKE, WHO IS MAKING THIS DISCISION ?..........DEVELOPERS !

 

Its like this.  Two cave men come across a sitck on the ground. One says bad stick.  The other one says we tell everyone good stick, and we sell.

Funny how this new era you talk about involves quick fun that dies out easly.......Who makes up the rules ?

  Vembumees

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 87

4/07/13 2:54:39 PM#27
After reading half of this crap I think you have washed your own brains away.
  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1656

4/07/13 2:56:13 PM#28

If the players didn't want it, they wouldn't be buying them up. 

They want easy, they want quick gaming sessions, they want rewards. 

It's not that the gaming companies don't know what gamers want, they know exactly what they want, they just don't care what OTHER gamers want.  They think there's no market for challenging games that aren't WoWesque. 

You're talking about a generation of gamers that didn't grow up playing games that didn't have saves, and would make you start from the beginning if you made a mistake.  They grew up with games that mostly let you keep trying until you eventually got it. 

Gamers tend to think that other games are like them, and want the same kind of games as them, and that's not how it works.  Those of us that actually enjoy challenging games are the minority.  Most gamers do not like games that they will fail at. 

Most gamers just want to "win" the game, and that's what developers give them, because that's what is going to sell the most boxes and games are not cheap to make anymore. 

 

When games cost millions of dollars to make anymore, it's not suprising that they focus on the group of gamers that is going to buy the most. 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3201

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

4/07/13 9:30:36 PM#29


Originally posted by Byrhofen
The point still remains the same though, posters claim that  older MMOs are superior gameplay/feature wise to newer MMOs, yet they do not play them, even if they still can.

Yea. OK.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/07/13 9:42:05 PM#30

Good MMORPG's grow, they don't start out big.  That progression is what makes a game last.

 

 

Now, new games are geared to have 50 servers @ start, then 24 months later, down to 11 servers/shards.

 

Instead of the EQ, UO method, of slowly opening up new worlds...    start with 5 servers (thus, smalller niche) and grow it to 10~15 servers/shards, 2 years later. CEo are doing it backward, because they don't care how many millions don 't like their game, or complain about balancing on some forum... they got PAID!

A MMORPG is just like a tree...   you need a small core group who is there solely because they support the idea of this/that game. Other eventually fall into it and bring their friends & others along...  7 years later you have EVE..

 

 

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

4/07/13 9:55:22 PM#31
Originally posted by Myria

I really wish people would skip the psychobabble bullshit, it's meaningless tripe.

First, the whole "Pavlovian conditioning" and "Skinner box" stuff? It's crap. Behaviorism is crap, and always has been. Subliminal conditioning? Doesn't work. Aversion therapy? Doesn't work -- that alone puts a hole in the whole "brainwashing" thing you could fit a medium-sized globular cluster through. Hell, torture, the purest form of "Skinner box" there is (the original Skinner boxes basically being torture machines), doesn't work. There is no brainwashing someone to do anything you want if you just say "Would you kindly" (depressing how much milage Bioshock has gotten off of strawmen), there will never be a Walden Two, and you sure as hell don't "brainwash" masses of people just by making a game easier.

It's crap, all of it. Human (or most animals, for that matter) are not simple stimulus-response black boxes, and every attempt there has ever been to try and find a way to easily manipulate people on any scale has failed, and usually backfired.

People can be manipulated, to be sure, both as individuals and as groups, but that is far from a simple, predictable, or risk-free matter. It invariably requires giving them (or making them believe they will get) something they want (or believe they want), and it sure the hell isn't anything like what is generally meant by "brain washing".

I'm sure there are many devs -- or, at least, the people they work for -- who wish they could and were able to 'brainwash' people. Instead they have to do the hard work of trying different things until they find something people like and will pay for. Just because you don't like the end result of that doesn't make it 'brainwashing', it just makes you an outlier.

Most fast food places spend a lot of money trying to make you think that their hamburgers taste good.

Casinos advertise that you could be a big winner. Then once you're their you will notice that their are no windows and no clock so that you can't tell what time it is and how love you've been there. The carpet is meant to make you dizzy so that you look straight ahead at the game tables and slot machines. They pump oxygen in the rooms to keep you more alert so you don't feel tired in the middle of gambling. You get free caffinated drinks at the casinos I live by to keep you more alert.  Clearly they are not trying to manipulate people.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3563

4/07/13 10:01:13 PM#32
By this thread's logic a person asking another person to do XYZ like 'grab me that spoon over there' is 'brain washing'. I don't it means what you think it means.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

4/07/13 11:21:01 PM#33

LOL ... brainwash? Just because others have different preferences than you .. you think they are brainwashed?

Heck, even before the modern MMO, i think the UO & EQ are not fun games .. thus i didn't play UO beyond beta .. and quit EQ after 1 year (and only play for a year because there weren't many choices then).

Now MMOs are better games. Exactly what i have been waiting for ... it is the other way around. Devs didn't brainwash anyone .. they looked at what were the pain points, and fixed MMOs. You can say the players brainwashed them instead.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4806

4/07/13 11:36:42 PM#34
Originally posted by Magiknight

Most fast food places spend a lot of money trying to make you think that their hamburgers taste good.

Casinos advertise that you could be a big winner. Then once you're their you will notice that their are no windows and no clock so that you can't tell what time it is and how love you've been there. The carpet is meant to make you dizzy so that you look straight ahead at the game tables and slot machines. They pump oxygen in the rooms to keep you more alert so you don't feel tired in the middle of gambling. You get free caffinated drinks at the casinos I live by to keep you more alert.  Clearly they are not trying to manipulate people.

And yet when I walk in there the first thing I want to do is leave and find some place that doesn't have all that BS. The ppl sitting in there are addicted. You could light the place on fire and they wouldn't leave. All of that stuff may help tip someone over the edge IF.... they're the type of person that is already sitting on it.

The same thing goes on in mmos. All that garbage they put in to keep people playing, has so far, backfired for the most part. Sure the adicts play forever trying to get the next little pointless reward. But they'd be happy with just about any trash content. The rest of the people take one look at it and say this game has nothing to do at end game and leave.

 

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

4/07/13 11:57:45 PM#35
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Magiknight

Most fast food places spend a lot of money trying to make you think that their hamburgers taste good.

Casinos advertise that you could be a big winner. Then once you're their you will notice that their are no windows and no clock so that you can't tell what time it is and how love you've been there. The carpet is meant to make you dizzy so that you look straight ahead at the game tables and slot machines. They pump oxygen in the rooms to keep you more alert so you don't feel tired in the middle of gambling. You get free caffinated drinks at the casinos I live by to keep you more alert.  Clearly they are not trying to manipulate people.

And yet when I walk in there the first thing I want to do is leave and find some place that doesn't have all that BS. The ppl sitting in there are addicted. You could light the place on fire and they wouldn't leave. All of that stuff may help tip someone over the edge IF.... they're the type of person that is already sitting on it.

The same thing goes on in mmos. All that garbage they put in to keep people playing, has so far, backfired for the most part. Sure the adicts play forever trying to get the next little pointless reward. But they'd be happy with just about any trash content. The rest of the people take one look at it and say this game has nothing to do at end game and leave.

 

I usually like to have something to do besides end game. For me it's more about the journey than the ending, although trying to get some epic armor at the end of the game is always nice. As long as it's harder to get than WoW made it.

I lived two miles from a casino for three years before I started going regularly. In half a year it had ruined my life. Many of the same people are there everytime I go there. They are usually very lonely people. Sometimes I wonder if that's how humanity has always been. People become more and more degenerate with each generation. These people then settle for crap that is shoved in their face.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3563

4/08/13 12:18:47 AM#36
Originally posted by Magiknight

 

I usually like to have something to do besides end game. For me it's more about the journey than the ending, although trying to get some epic armor at the end of the game is always nice. As long as it's harder to get than WoW made it.

I lived two miles from a casino for three years before I started going regularly. In half a year it had ruined my life. Many of the same people are there everytime I go there. They are usually very lonely people. Sometimes I wonder if that's how humanity has always been. People become more and more degenerate with each generation. These people then settle for crap that is shoved in their face.

Casinos typically do not want people to 'ruined my life' as they aren't likely to be repeated customers.

Contrary to popular belief casinos want lots of people to lose small amounts of money so they become long term customers.

It is hilarious to think humanity is better / worse than what we had before. Humanity has changed, whether for the good or bad is up to everyone's opinion. I think it has gotten better; equal rights is something definitely better than what humanity had before.

In terms of this topic?

I disagree because by this thread's logic, my dad asking me to pick him up at the airport is considered 'brain washing'.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

4/08/13 12:23:46 AM#37
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Magiknight

 

I usually like to have something to do besides end game. For me it's more about the journey than the ending, although trying to get some epic armor at the end of the game is always nice. As long as it's harder to get than WoW made it.

I lived two miles from a casino for three years before I started going regularly. In half a year it had ruined my life. Many of the same people are there everytime I go there. They are usually very lonely people. Sometimes I wonder if that's how humanity has always been. People become more and more degenerate with each generation. These people then settle for crap that is shoved in their face.

Casinos typically do not want people to 'ruined my life' as they aren't likely to be repeated customers.

Contrary to popular belief casinos want lots of people to lose small amounts of money so they become long term customers.

It is hilarious to think humanity is better / worse than what we had before. Humanity has changed, whether for the good or bad is up to everyone's opinion. I think it has gotten better; equal rights is something definitely better than what humanity had before.

In terms of this topic?

I disagree because by this thread's logic, my dad asking me to pick him up at the airport is considered 'brain washing'.

They don't care if they ruined someones life or not as long as that person is bringing money in that they will gladly take for nothing in return. And by long term customers I'm sure you mean the people who are there three times a week gambling at least hundreds away, if not tens of thousands, every week, and almost always loosing. The gambling industry would crumble in a matter of months without these people.

Not everyones opinion is equal. People are not equal.

  Squeak69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 966

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

4/08/13 12:43:33 AM#38

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

4/08/13 12:48:17 AM#39
Originally posted by Squeak69

you mean something like this?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box

Bingo

  User Deleted
4/08/13 1:01:48 AM#40
Originally posted by delete5230

Brain washing. First I would like to say that this word causes anger in people. No one likes being played as a fool. But non the less its what big business does to achieve maximum profit AT ANY COST.

Some backround :

I worked as a lower management at a very large corporation. I was a floor supervisor of the no big deal type. However I was well versed in Statistical Process Control and other management tools, and had attended many meetings related to our product and how to continuously reduce cost.........So I know how business works !

 

Many of us posters here at mmorpg.com are not happy with the direction that our mmos have taken as of the last few years. Sure some do but as a majority I would say no. Newer players don't understand the gold mine of what mmos were. They say things like EQ1 is so old, outdated, stick figure like graphics, and needless windows to open. BUT what it really was about is working together in a harsh environment to achieve an epic outcome. It was about fantasizing at work and developing a game plan for that evenings play. Anticipating that all your friends would be online and hoping they would go with your plan. Every morning at work or school was like waiting for Christmas. You could not get home fast enough to try out your new chain of abilities because your old ones did not work.

What could have done better is more options to solo if that was your style.

THIS SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED OLD SCHOOL. It should have evolved deeper and with better graphics, more complex classes and abilities. Expansions should add content instead of changing for the worst.

 

What we have going now is what I call a "quick fix". I know its not a business word but it's what I would like to use. Our CEO was and accountant. He told us straight out concentrate on the here-and-now. Make us money TODAY because you don't know what the future holds. We are not going to have downtime for preventive maintenance but run our machines faster at all cost and fix later !

By now most here know where I'm going with this as it relates to mmos, but here is is anyway.

Lackluster,easy, fun fun games sell faster. GET BOX SALES FAST AT ANY COST, deal with low retentions later, we could always have a layoff and reduce cost. Our future is uncertain, depending on the direction our product takes will add, but thats later. Make our money now !................We have the public on our side, they are saying things like old school sucks and the newer generation are expecting 30 days of content anyway. So lets use this to our advantage.

So their you have it developers score 10 points, mmo community 2.

 

Now I'll leave you with this :

Who is really asking for easy, fast leveling, and get to end game quick !!!..........I think developers are acting on there own.

- Easy fast leveling = less content !

- Get to end game quick = buy our expansions !

 

Yeah man. Its a conspiracy! Its all a wicked illuminati plot to prepare the new world order.  It's like those half naked toon ads from Scarlett Blade that still litter the site on occasion. It's all subliminal messaging using sex to raise money ( they used toons because nerds relate to them better than real women) for Camelot Unchained ( you can see camelot in the color backgrounds behind the breasts) which is really a tool to train grunt warriors for the secret war brewing where they will take over the internets and get us to spend cash through kickstarter to fund their darwinistic projects for global supremacy. F'n cool way to fund a war man. Get the free peoples to pay and train for their own conquering army things man like its just some game candy they think they want but hardly play when it gets here. I'm telling you Richard Garriot got a hand in this some how too like coca cola man its all sticky and sweet togetrher you just wait he only took that russian rocket trip to fake a law suit thing to transfer money to the chinese mafia to buy Chris Roberts freedom from the chinese mafia milk house cause he couldn't pay his way out of Mark Hamill's voice acting bill alone and had to take a seedy loan...

 

Uhm so I am full of it too. Sometimes it really is just the need for cash driving people in the market to make something they think people will buy rather than some hidden agenda. I mean do you consider the everyday marketing of products and media spin to be "brain washing" or just good salesmanship?

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