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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is this the end of a genre?

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67 posts found
  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5792

4/06/13 5:42:23 PM#21

Virtual online worlds will only get better as our technology gets better.

We ain't seen nothing yet :)

Remember Matrix the movie, yes virtual worlds will be simulations running directly in our mind some day. This is just the beginning!

 

  dgarbini

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/05
Posts: 186

4/06/13 5:45:36 PM#22
Personally, I would say most genre's of gaming are getting a little over done and tired.  Less and less content, less and less complexity, and less and less new/interesting ideas.  So I would say this is a wider problem then MMO's but gaming in general, you could even stretch it to entertainment as a whole in some aspects.  The economy doesnt help though for funding new or interesting or risky ideas.  And another part of the problem is us ourselves, we are a dieing breed and the market is changing.  Even if I dont like American Idol it is/was a hit and will keep being made and spun off.  There is plenty of money being made in MMO's and gaming in general, it just often isnt the things I (we) like....Now I feel old :(
  MumboJumbo

Elite Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3204

Veni, Vidi, Converti

4/06/13 5:50:50 PM#23
Originally posted by wordiz
I agree with your Kickstarter sentiment, I personally haven't donated to anything yet, but I like the idea of an indie scene in gaming, after all, independant films and music are some of the best made.

You possibly did well to steer clear of a few ks... but equally you probably would have done well to have backed a few other. :)

  thecapitaine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 400

4/06/13 5:54:19 PM#24
Originally posted by Burntvet
I would like to point out, to those saying "Everything is fine... nothing wrong in the genre, just because you don't like it.... blah blah blah", that if what you say is true, then why are companies that make the so called MMOs of these days not doing so well? Funcom - looking for a buyer after TSW crashed their company, laid-off more than 50% of comany and might go under anyway. Cryptic - sold to a Chinese P2W gambling company and Atari, former parent company now bankrupt. EA - well covered, most of TOR people fired, many execs fired, company rumored to be looking for a partner or buyer. SOE... ehhhh... circling the drain. The list goes on. If everything is fine in MMO land, then why are the companies sucking it?

If this were an isolated trend within MMO gaming, I'd be inclined to agree.  But we see this across the entire game development sphere.  The last few years haven't been kind to many developers or publishers, as witnessed with by the many studio closures and publishers taking hits.  Also, if you're referring to me, I never said nothing is wrong with the genre, I said it's not ending, which are two quite different observations.

To the OP, please don't take my comment about foibles as a sort of personal attack.  However, your question is built on dissatisfaction with the games you recently tried.  Even casual observance of this forum will show that many, many arguments hinge on the phenomenon that I mentioned and this conversation is likely to go in that direction, whether you will it or not.

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1640

4/06/13 5:57:12 PM#25
Originally posted by wordiz
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
Originally posted by wordiz
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

I could make some degree of argument that we are seeing the after effects of SWTOR floundering and GW2 having some success right now. Developers are retooling and not a lot of new stuff is ready to be announced. I don’t see it as a last stab for glory by some in the genre but rather a silence before the next round. There is money here, love for the games, and they wont give up on it. We may not see a wave of AAA titles like in past years again though. They haven’t figured out how to make them successful and ran dated design ideas into the ground trying.

This is what I'm hoping the case is, but you gotta wonder, what if they suck? I'm having a hard time imagining Bethesda, well, Zenimax making a bad game...but we're habit forming creatures, and the industry's pattern of bad products can't be denied.

 

I am not. TESO might be great. I really want it to be as I want worth while games to play. But I also have to admit that they made a PVP game for a franchse built on PVE exploration, they are out of synch internally and often contradict themselves in public statements, they are retooling the game to add features they think fans want from the announcement backlash at the expense of core game features like the dark brothers and thieves guild and even at the expense of watering down AvA, and seem to be relying on dated mechanic ideas first tried in DAOC. It really could still be good but it has potential train wreck written all over it too.

 

The industry pattern you describe is a rutt that is taking a beating by means of wallet to sort through. The big investment firms into entertainment  are afraid to take risks and funded games as conservative toward the supposedly proven WOW model as they could. Look where that got them? My god man, they f''ed up STAR WARS.... O.o

 

I think it's going to take some indie success to shake things up and show the money people that some new ideas really can work. More reason to pour some hopes into kickstarter and indieagogo titles. Otherwise with games like Desitny and Defiance or even DUST 514 in the works one has to wonder if they are just going to give up on new MMORPGs like FUNCOM decided to do as "too hard to make."  Lord knows I don't want too many more Asian F2P grinders making it over this way as my only option because the market is empty right now.

Obviously by my OP, I'm pretty fearful of the possibilities. "It's just a game." Maybe to some, but it's an artform to me, one that I grew up with and adore.  I can imagine so many ways TESO could go wrong, but I'm staying hopeful that it doesn't. With the highlighted comment above, what isn't possible to screw up is the real question. I agree with your Kickstarter sentiment, I personally haven't donated to anything yet, but I like the idea of an indie scene in gaming, after all, independant films and music are some of the best made.

I too did a lot of growing up with the genre. I was 22 when Asheron's Call came out and have played mmo since that point. In many ways the games of old outshined the newer games, because they were built by our peers. Older mmos were made to be graphical MUDs, and had more roleplaying elements within the game.

At the same time, the games of old required a significant amount of time to progress at all. It was easy to get left behind, or have a character stuck at a certain level range because the class was unwated for groups, and it was normal to sit around in game for hours looking for a group if you weren't available to play during peak times.

The newer games have resolved many of the older issues, but they also didn't bring along the wonderful roleplay elements. Additionally, the genre became extremely popular and is now designed to be played by the masses, rather than a few thousand.

To say the genre is ending isn't accurate, because simply put, it's changed. Additionally, considering we've both have probably played a myraid of games over the years, gaming in and of itself has lost some of the magic. Gamers are a pretty sophisticated sort. We understand various game mechanics, learn how to exploit the game's weaknesses to our advantage, and many of us know how to build powerful characters. This comes from years of experience within gaming systems, and learning how to decipher the mystery behind the games.

In other words, we've seen the man behind the curtain, and we simply cannot go back. With indie gaming, we might see some magic come back. Look at Minecraft. That game isn't for everyone, but it also shows how a very simple design (virtual legos built into a survival game) can have a ton of depth (working redstone computers for instance). However, at the very core, we understand gaming mechanics and often care more about how to build the all powerful characters and racing the end game, rather than just enjoying the ride.

I am currently playing GW2, and I am loving my time there. I play a warrior in WvW while leveling, which adds extra challenge and frustration, and I am slowly exploring and crafting my way to 80. I feel no need to race to the end, and my warrior will only be my second level 80. I take gaming for what it is now, a form of entertainment, and relish in my experiences for what they are. When I come across a gem of a game, something that I find special, I feel giddy like a kid again. I forcibly toned down my gaming habits, and have found myself enjoying gaming more now that I don't take it so seriously.

Take that for what you will, but perhaps it's time to get back to your roots of gaming. Take things easy, try to get lost into a game world, and try not to overanalyze. It's what I did, and it's working very well.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/06/13 6:00:32 PM#26
Originally posted by wordiz

Are you trolling by saying I'm a troll? You know, I'm trying to have a discussion here, not a sh*t slinging match. I realize how hopelessly unrealistic this is with some people on here, but come on.

I think he's implying most people only care about how fun a game is, not how old it is (being old only matters insofar as it might prevent a game from remaining fun.)

It's like if you said visual media was dead because new platforms haven't surfaced recently -- completely ignoring the fact that existing platforms like youtube, netflix, or cable TV have tons and tons and tons of content to enjoy.  But you reject it simply on account of the platform being old, which sounds rather trollish.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1790

4/06/13 6:00:38 PM#27

The number of people playing MMO's has increased, the number of MMO's has increased.

Dying might not exactly be the right word here.

And just because you see games fail doesn't mean the genre is dying it just means that there's more competition than ever and players have higher expecations than before.

Even some of the games that failed (read: failed at becoming monstrous multi-million player base games) still have people playing them. TSW, SWTOR, AoC, Aion the list keeps going.

 

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

4/06/13 6:09:10 PM#28
Originally posted by Sovrath

No, it's not the end of a genre, just the evolution of one.

This happens in most creative genres. You just find yourself on the side that doesn't like where it's going. Pretty understandable.

 

Wisdom!

 

I still like my New Wave from the early 80s.  Styles may change, but that doesn't mean my tastes have to change with the times.  Maybe it's an old fart phenomenon.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2700

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

4/06/13 6:09:55 PM#29
Originally posted by wordiz

A few months back I had a post titled, "Soooo bored...." Come to find out, I wasn't the only one waiting for a mmo savior with nothing play. Well here were are again, and I still have nothing to play.

I've played through Skyrim again and the new Dragonborn xpack. I played Bioshock: Infinite (Incredible game, but short like most shooters), playing Civ 5, bored out of my mind now. 

As far as MMOs:

I redownloaded Guild Wars 2 and leveled another character to 80 before finding myself with nothing to do once again. 

I can't get myself to go back to SWTOR, which seems to be where most of my gaming buddies have gone, but I wish it would just die already. EA will not see a penny from me.

I'd almost like to play Rift, but not too many people I know play it, and subscriptions have been rejected by most, yet people still pay for WoW. IMO it's probably the best MMO out right now, but not a very good MMO at all in the long run.

TSW, the questing is fun and such and the dungeons are pretty cool even, but classes are crazy imbalanced and I find myself needing to go back and do quests to get enough skill points to switch to spinny blades instead of my squishy caster...but yeah, no, I don't really have an interest to do so, and within a couple weeks there'd be nothing left to keep me busy anyways.

Naturally, there's a slew of other games not worth mentioning. Not insult to anyone that plays any of those games. We're all desperate, I understand.

There's the dated classics, but we're well past the decade mark on a lot of them, those that haven't been shut down or noobified.

Getting to my point:

This next batch of promissing MMOs with 2013 release dates, and some of the other titles coming later are seeming more and more to be a last stab at glory for the genre. I know I'm not the only one that's wasted hundreds on disappointing titles. Not just MMOs, ( I know, I'm soooo STUPID! XD. It's what I get for riding the HYPE TRAAAIN!!! XD. I said it, now you can't flamers. Trolls, feel free.) and I feel a lot of us are too fearful to even buy a game at launch anymore, let alone pre-order.

So to reiterate: Is this the end of a genre? If the games leaving hype station this year happen to fail (ESO, AA, FFXIV, Defiance, Neverwinter...so on) how many of us are going to lose our faith in the genre completely? I'm not saying I will, but there are others more pessimistic than myself. Is the next batch of MMOs gonna make or break this genre we all love? I think it might.

Your thoughts please.

P.S.

Remember, I'm asking a question, not making a statement (other than my gaming preferences). I know my taste in games may differ from many. I don't pretend to be some ultimate authority, so please don't attack me.

You've only waited a few months and you believe the next big thing should be coming along the pipeline? And only because you cannot see anything to your liking coming, you feel the genre is nearing it's end? I hope not. Back in 1996 when mmorpgs were just getting started, there was maybe 5 or so mmorpgs coming down the pipeline. And that pipeline took years.

 

Flash forward to 2013 and you check to see how many mmorpgs are coming down the pipeline and there are hundreds in development. Does that mean they will all drop at the same time? Of course not. Does that mean that any of them will be huge hits? Nope. But it does let you know that the genre is far from being finito.

 

Up to this point devs have been chasing that magical carrot called WoW and using that as a measuring stick for success. It has only been recently that they have gotten it through their thick skulls that the genre is nearing capacity. And the broadband boom is reaching it's peak. So it is not smart to continue using WoW as a gauge for success. The pie has been made, so to speak, and now is the time to cut out your little slice of heaven. That's why you have devs talking about niches and not trying to obtain WoW like numbers. Sad thing is, it's the players themselves that are being slow on the uptake. And by that I mean with every new mmorpg that's being release, they still have the old habit of comparing it that magical carrot. Instead they should be judging it based on sustainability and potential growth.

 

It won't be until the next technological boom (like broadband in the early 00s) and we get a bigger size pie tin, that we see a possible big hit again in the genre. Because that's when obviously the pie gets bigger and there is more to divvy up. And the next huge wave of investors, devs and companies trying to repeat that next success story.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  wordiz

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/12
Posts: 481

 
OP  4/06/13 6:13:09 PM#30
Originally posted by XAPKen
Originally posted by Sovrath

No, it's not the end of a genre, just the evolution of one.

This happens in most creative genres. You just find yourself on the side that doesn't like where it's going. Pretty understandable.

 

Wisdom!

 

I still like my New Wave from the early 80s.  Styles may change, but that doesn't mean my tastes have to change with the times.  Maybe it's an old fart phenomenon.

 

Just wanted to note that many still consider Final Fantasy VII as one of the best games ever made. When was the last time you saw a JRPG? Trends, genres, entire artforms CAN die. It's entirely possible. Not everything just evolves into something new.

Reminder to some other replies: First of all thanks for the feedback. I'm loving all of your perspectives. However, please remember I did'nt claim to predict anything or say that this IS the way things are ABSOLUTLEY going. Once again, I'm asking if it could happen, and what could be the potential outcome. I'm not the holy prophet of online gaming. I just know I'm not the only one that feels this way, regardless of how big our demographic may be.

http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/

  wordiz

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/12
Posts: 481

 
OP  4/06/13 6:19:06 PM#31
It won't be until the next technological boom (like broadband in the early 00s) and we get a bigger size pie tin, that we see a possible big hit again in the genre. Because that's when obviously the pie gets bigger and there is more to divvy up. And the next huge wave of investors, devs and companies trying to repeat that next success story.

I have also considered this. I think you're probably right, just hoping we get something to hold us over for now. I know a lot of us are waiting for the new games, it'll suck if we're let down, and have to go on waiting another year or (god forbid) years.

http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/

  Popori

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 333

4/06/13 6:32:27 PM#32
I've still got my fingers crossed for that title that brings about the collapse of the MMO market.
  User Deleted
4/06/13 6:34:26 PM#33

End of a genre? kind of arrogant to say that considering we have everything from themeparks to sandparks to damn near the closest you can come to a sandbox both already launched (Age of Conan, WoW, GW2, EVE-Online, Archeage, Age of Wushu,Vanguard Saga of Heroes, etc) and on the horizon (CU, Albion Online, Embers of Caerus, Neverwinter,Wildfire, World of Darkness, The Repopulation, etc) and we're seeing revivals of long dead iterations of games or whole games (The Old Servers on Runescape, the projects to bring back pub 14.1 of SWG one of which is clawing its way through early beta stages, christ there are WoW private servers out there that reverse engineer Mysts of Pandaria content to vanilla level standards of difficulty and quality, granted not perfect but still).

To put it bluntly: No the genre isn't dying but for the last 4-5 years it's been suffering growing pains and a massive identity crysis as WoW slowly loses it's hold on the horde (pun intended) of players it brought into play and other MMO models (both payment and gameplay) struggle to cope both with the demands from the playerbase and from their publisher. The end of this era of turmoil is coming though as a the new wave of gamers start cutting their teeth on more in depth games and demand this depth from the MMOs they would desire to play, the next few years will see another explosion of innovation the likes of which has not been seen since the early 2000s.

  thecapitaine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 400

4/06/13 6:43:01 PM#34
In any evolutionary process there are bound to be dead ends and there are certainly artforms that only exist as footnotes or historical relics.  But I'm inclined to believe that in modern times most do survive through their ancestors, if not outright.  You can go to New York, for instance, spend a month and hear Western music spanning 300 years performed to diverse crowds.  D&D has been around for 30 years or so?  Suffice it to say that in the near term I don't think it's a stretch to think that MMOs or some evolution thereof will be around as a genre.  Everquest or UO or WoW may be gone, certainly, but there's every reason to believe massively multiplayer games will continue to exist.
  Jerek_

Novice Member

Joined: 5/08/04
Posts: 398

4/06/13 6:43:38 PM#35
Originally posted by wordiz
Originally posted by XAPKen
Originally posted by Sovrath

No, it's not the end of a genre, just the evolution of one.

This happens in most creative genres. You just find yourself on the side that doesn't like where it's going. Pretty understandable.

 

Wisdom!

 

I still like my New Wave from the early 80s.  Styles may change, but that doesn't mean my tastes have to change with the times.  Maybe it's an old fart phenomenon.

 

Just wanted to note that many still consider Final Fantasy VII as one of the best games ever made. When was the last time you saw a JRPG? Trends, genres, entire artforms CAN die. It's entirely possible. Not everything just evolves into something new.

Reminder to some other replies: First of all thanks for the feedback. I'm loving all of your perspectives. However, please remember I did'nt claim to predict anything or say that this IS the way things are ABSOLUTLEY going. Once again, I'm asking if it could happen, and what could be the potential outcome. I'm not the holy prophet of online gaming. I just know I'm not the only one that feels this way, regardless of how big our demographic may be.

the last time I played a jrpg was yesterday when I finished final fantasy xiii-2, it was a great game that I had a lot of fun with.  What really struck me about it was that it had complex systems, like the monster companion capture, leveling, and customization, that was a thousand times more complex than anything I've seen in an MMO in years, probably since swg crafting.  I can see why people might not like the story of the game, but it does still exist and MMO devs could learn a ton about making real games again from it.

That aside, I agree very much with the sentiment in the OP.  I find myself I basically the same situation concerning the future of MMO's.  The sad answer I have come to is that yes, this probably is the end, at least for me.  I wasn't an active part of any MMO for several years before TOR, and it failed to live up to even my modest expectations.  Although they might turn out to be good games for some, I already know that nothing coming out soon is the game I'm looking for.  So that leaves games just beginning development.  Thats 5 to 7 years away, and aside from TOR will have been close to a decade since I last played a MMO in a serious way.  I just don't think I'll care at that point, and even if I do, I still need to find a new hobby in the meantime.

 

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5792

4/06/13 6:43:44 PM#36
Originally posted by Popori
I've still got my fingers crossed for that title that brings about the collapse of the MMO market.

Won't happen, ever. We are social animals, which is why the harshest punishment is solitary confinement.

So the future games will continue to be online and social. They will only get better with better technology.

  Hydros13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/08/12
Posts: 30

4/06/13 6:56:10 PM#37
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Popori
I've still got my fingers crossed for that title that brings about the collapse of the MMO market.

Won't happen, ever. We are social animals, which is why the harshest punishment is solitary confinement.

So the future games will continue to be online and social. They will only get better with better technology.

I agree, the genre is only evolving. I too find myself without a MMO to play atm, but I know the future is bright for the MMOs as a genre.

  Popori

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 333

4/06/13 7:01:11 PM#38
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Popori
I've still got my fingers crossed for that title that brings about the collapse of the MMO market.

Won't happen, ever. We are social animals, which is why the harshest punishment is solitary confinement.

So the future games will continue to be online and social. They will only get better with better technology.

For the first statement, I'm sure you're right.  

For the second, I see no evidence of that being the case.  I agree that social/online is no issue and welcome in any game really.  But any signs of the 'don't innovate, replicate' cash grab ending have been lost on me.

edit: And the whole "Man, this MMO is gonna be the one to break the mold!" statement has been going strong for about 6 or more years now.

  Nhoj1983

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/08
Posts: 184

4/06/13 7:06:37 PM#39

The end of AAA MMOs as we know it?  Maybe.  One thing that I've learned is there will always be something new over the horizon.  Whether it be an expansion or totally new mmo.  The trick is to not expect something of a single mesiah and you'll likely find games you will enjoy for what they are and not what you want them to be.  With games like Neverwinter, Pathfinder, and (hopefully) camelot unhcained coming.  You're going to find games built with a niche market in mind with budgets to match which in turn will mean they won't be able to be everything to everyone but they should do what they set out to do.. meaning to be different.  I didn't even mention EQ next which I have high hopes for because I do have a feeling it'll be AAA level funded.

 

 We have a slew of new games f2p and AAA coming this year as well as updates or expansions to already established mmos.  I'll not get into those but one thing that has been proven over and over is that f2p or b2p cash models are the future.  The games of the future will go for the most successful routs... and the most successful to date are these models.  this is the one thing that worries me about ARR but it is a lesser monthly cost and it'll be tapping into a group of people that may never have touched mmos before which is a win.  There's so much choice available for all types of players often without even having to pay an entry fee to try it.  The games that have gone F2P such as Aion and TERA are great examples of honest to goodness free titles with options to pay.   SWTOR is doing better financially than when they were a walled garden but I also have reservations for their draconian measures to grab cash from their customers.  That said success is a good thing especially for a game as high profile as it was.  So yeah no it's not the end.

  Vidir

Novice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

4/06/13 7:12:56 PM#40
Originally posted by wordiz

A few months back I had a post titled, "Soooo bored...." Come to find out, I wasn't the only one waiting for a mmo savior with nothing play. Well here were are again, and I still have nothing to play.

I've played through Skyrim again and the new Dragonborn xpack. I played Bioshock: Infinite (Incredible game, but short like most shooters), playing Civ 5, bored out of my mind now. 

As far as MMOs:

I redownloaded Guild Wars 2 and leveled another character to 80 before finding myself with nothing to do once again. 

I can't get myself to go back to SWTOR, which seems to be where most of my gaming buddies have gone, but I wish it would just die already. EA will not see a penny from me.

I'd almost like to play Rift, but not too many people I know play it, and subscriptions have been rejected by most, yet people still pay for WoW. IMO it's probably the best MMO out right now, but not a very good MMO at all in the long run.

TSW, the questing is fun and such and the dungeons are pretty cool even, but classes are crazy imbalanced and I find myself needing to go back and do quests to get enough skill points to switch to spinny blades instead of my squishy caster...but yeah, no, I don't really have an interest to do so, and within a couple weeks there'd be nothing left to keep me busy anyways.

Naturally, there's a slew of other games not worth mentioning. Not insult to anyone that plays any of those games. We're all desperate, I understand.

There's the dated classics, but we're well past the decade mark on a lot of them, those that haven't been shut down or noobified.

Getting to my point:

This next batch of promissing MMOs with 2013 release dates, and some of the other titles coming later are seeming more and more to be a last stab at glory for the genre. I know I'm not the only one that's wasted hundreds on disappointing titles. Not just MMOs, ( I know, I'm soooo STUPID! XD. It's what I get for riding the HYPE TRAAAIN!!! XD. I said it, now you can't flamers. Trolls, feel free.) and I feel a lot of us are too fearful to even buy a game at launch anymore, let alone pre-order.

So to reiterate: Is this the end of a genre? If the games leaving hype station this year happen to fail (ESO, AA, FFXIV, Defiance, Neverwinter...so on) how many of us are going to lose our faith in the genre completely? I'm not saying I will, but there are others more pessimistic than myself. Is the next batch of MMOs gonna make or break this genre we all love? I think it might.

Your thoughts please.

P.S.

Remember, I'm asking a question, not making a statement (other than my gaming preferences). I know my taste in games may differ from many. I don't pretend to be some ultimate authority, so please don't attack me.

 I agree with most of your writing.

I started playing mmorpg's about 13 years ago when there only were a handfull of those.It was fun like a drug could not keep your mind from it.

But things change, back then it was fun playing in a group in those games, that is not so anymore. Grouping is not fun anymore it is frustrating, people are nasty with eachother, one word boring.

So therfor game changes, people want to have fun playing and therfore games must be soloable or people wont play it.

Other things that happens now is that more and more games are online games, in few years all games will be online.

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